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EvaFord

DJ using ALT-Hostess for extra tips.

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But see,  You CAN NOT send me the list of scammers as that is against TOS.  And that is my point. When people are Publicly asking for money then they should have different TOS criteria.  It just makes sense. We NEED to get rid of the anonymity when it comes to collecting money at Public events.

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EvaFord wrote:

And I am laughing at your resignation to the idea that it HAS to stay like this.  We have a right to be warned about scamming in SL. Don't you agree?

No.  That is not a "right".  It's called a preference.  There is no "right" in RL or SL that could possibly be enforced, that would make it so people are "warned" about scamming.  

 

 


EvaFord wrote:

At this point in time No One Is Exempt From TOS.   
:)
    But we both know that can change !  
:)
  
:)
 
:)
   And Club owners can protect their patrons from scams.  

I have no interest in there being a special class of SL residents that do not have the same protections as the rest of the residents.  That's what you're proposing.  You want to end the TOS protections for your "selected" group.  A group that has no real definition and would be arbitrary.   No. 

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There already is a definition of Public Figure in real world Law. Read it.   And I konw that  LL  does listen to the concerns of residents. And this is a Major concern not an isolated incident. 


I do like your suggestion of Scam Detective !  :)

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EvaFord wrote:

But see,  You CAN NOT send me the list of scammers as that is against TOS.  And that is my point. When people are Publicly asking for money then they should have different TOS criteria.  It just makes sense. We NEED to get rid of the anonymity when it comes to collecting money at Public events.

I wouldn't need to send you the scammer list inworld Eva.  I'd post a link to a blog, and on the blog would be the information.  People who wanted to report scammers would do so on the blog.  Anything outside of SL does not violate the TOS. 

So, what I'd suggest, since you are so hell bent on this, is that you post a link on your profile.  A link to a blog, and there at the blog you can say whatever you want.  Lots of people do that.  I've even seen people have thier forum signatures with links to their blogs. 

See?   Easy.  But, I do not support any change to TOS that would make some people "exempt". 

(Oh, and if you do create such a blog, be prepared for blow-back)

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EvaFord wrote:

There is a DJ in SL who uses an Alt as his Hostess/Partner. He claims "She" is voice verified implying that this ALT is female. He even made a fake first life profile with a fake photo of this ALT Partner.   I find this unethical. Guests are being asked to Tip the DJ's Alt.  I see it as a Scam. 

Since this is a Public figure in SL. Someone asking you for L$, is it ok to post information about this in your profile?  I feel that people who ask to be compensated in SL, need to be required to be honest as to where that money is going.

Public Figures should be exempt from some TOS disclosures.

wow ;p how old are you?

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"You want to end the TOS protections for your "selected" group.  A group that has no real definition and would be arbitrary.   No."  

 

There IS a real life definition Public Figure and it is NOt arbitrary.  Something needs to be done, you admitted that unethical people hide behind the anonymity. 

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EvaFord wrote:

There already is a definition of Public Figure in real world Law. Read it.   And I konw that  LL  does listen to the concerns of residents. And this is a Major concern not an isolated incident. 

 

I do like your suggestion of Scam Detective ! 
:)

Unfortunately for your line of argument, I already did:

PUBLIC FIGURE

A term usually used in the context of libel and defamation actions where the standards of proof are higher if the party claiming defamation is a public figure and therefore has to prove defamatory statements were made with actual malice. Harte-Hanks Communications v. Connaughton (1989) 491 U.S. 657, 666-668.

The "public figure" issue is not cut and dried. To begin with, a fairly high threshold of public activity is necessary to elevate a person to public figure status, Brown v. Kelly Broadcasting Co. (1989) 48 Cal.3d 711, 745, and, as to those who are not pervasively involved in public affairs, they must have "thrust themselves to the forefront of particular public controversies in order to influence the resolution of the issues involved" to be considered a "limited purpose" public figure. Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc. (1974) 418 U.S. 323, 345.

A "particularized determination" is required to decide whether a person is a limited purpose public figure, Bruno & Stillman, Inc. v. Globe Newspaper Co. (1st Cir. 1980) 633 F.2d 583, 589, a standard ensuring that reasonable minds may differ on this subject.

Advertisements themselves are not usually sufficient to transform someone into a public figure.  Vegod Corp. v. American Broadcasting Companies, Inc. (1979) 25 Cal.3d 763, 770 [a person in the business world advertising his wares does not necessarily become part of an existing public controversy]; Rancho La Costa, Inc. v. Superior Court (1980) 106 Cal.App.3d 646, 661 [advertising is not thrusting oneself into the vortex of a controversy].

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EvaFord wrote:

"You want to end the TOS protections for your "selected" group.  A group that has no real definition and would be arbitrary.   No."  

There IS a real life definition Public Figure and it is NOt arbitrary.  Something needs to be done, you admitted that unethical people hide behind the anonymity. 

Uh, Eva, Second Life is not real life. 

It doesn't matter what the real life definition is for Public Figures. 

The definitions that do apply to RL, would not be the same in SL, because ....SL is not real!    Robots in SL are not really robots!   Dogs in SL are not really dogs!    There is no actual world, we're just on some servers talking to each other and using a graphics card to see images.   There is no matrix.  There is no spoon.  We're all voluntarily online, and this is not a "real" world.   This is an online game. 

I have to go, so this will be my last post here today.  Perhaps you should consult an attorney in RL, there are people that specialize in internet law.  Don't be surprised if they explain to you exactly what I just wrote above. 

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EXACTLY.    And they have different rules and you can offer information publically , under certain circumstances,about them with out fear of being sued.

This information SUPPORTS my argument.  Guess you didn't understand it.  It is complex.

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Nice chatting with you. You make some interesting points. 

Things are changing in this field of Computer Crime.  Do not be surprised at the things that have already been set as Precedent in the area. 

We will be seeing some BIG changes in the next year. 

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you are not giving your money to an anonymous person, because in Second Life a person is an avatar, so you are tipping two SL persons here, the DJ and the Host.

your money is well spent if you decide that the amount you are voluntarily tipping equals the entertainment value that is being provided.

 

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EvaFord wrote:

 It just makes sense. We NEED to get rid of the anonymity when it comes to collecting money at Public events.

Why?  What are you afraid of?  Surely by the same suggestion, anyone that receives money, such as merchants, should also lose any anonymity?

You mentioned that you felt that everyone had a right to be warned about "scams".  You have a valid point.  "Be warned, some may 'scam' you though the definition of scam is variable".

I'm still trying to understand how this person has offended anyone.  Even if they were the same person, even if (shock horror), the female avatar hostess is male, even if they have a chuckle in private, how is this different from any normal day in SL, in any location?

Maybe SL isn't the right place to spend social time?

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EvaFord wrote:

EXACTLY.    And they have different rules and you can offer information publically , under certain circumstances,about them with out fear of being sued.

This information SUPPORTS my argument.  Guess you didn't understand it.  It is complex.

Oh no, I understood it perfectly. "EvaFord is always right,"

And if EvaFord thinks that a DJ in an imaginary club is someone who has  "thrust themselves to the forefront of particular public controversies in order to influence the resolution of the issues involved", we all can just keep nodding our heads and smiling.

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First and foremost - I don't think this is true. And if it is, it must be in a club with 2-3 people max and the DJ/host must be essentially silent. Speaking as a DJ - it's damned hard to keep up with the chat, the comings and goings of people, the requests, the personal IMs, speaking on mic plus keeping an eye on the music player and keeping it going and it only gets harder as more people show up. I just don't think anyone could do both jobs at once. Not fully or well, anyway.

 

That said - why do you care? If the DJ is good and you want to tip - why shouldn't you? If the host is good and you want to tip  - why shouldn't you? It's none of your business where the 'money is going'. That's like handing someone their paycheck with the stipulation that you get to dictate where they spend it and on what. 

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First and foremost, thank you so much for the Saturday afternoon chuckle. Secondly, I am in the legal field in RL and I know that a DJ in SL is NOT a "public figure" as you so want to keep pointing out. Thirdly, the ONLY way you could know that this person is supposedly an alt is 1) You hacked into LL records and looked him up...but....if YOU did this, then you have violated the law and could go to jail in RL for this. 2) You are using some sort of an alt detector like redzone use to sell which AGAIN is illegal and you COULD and WOULD get banned from SL and possibly face jail time in RL. Either way you, my friend, are screwed. IF all you have is a chat log, which I might add, could have easily been altered by yourself then by all means go ahead and report them. Can't say that LL would do anything BUT if you DID put it in your profile, be prepared to be AR'd by the person you are targeting. Which again, could get you banned from SL. Your choice. Leave the drama for your momma and move on or continue to stir the pot and suffer the consequences. Just my 2L's.

 

edit to correct a misspelled word.

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Oh Eva LOL I won't even quote anything from your posts as I would have to use all of them. First you need to check yourself at the sign in page on your viewer and decide if you actually agree to the TOS and CS of sl, sl and rl are not always the same to people that is an OPINION. Reading your basically BLANK profile tells me how involved you are in sl and what you actually like to do here. sl is a place for all to come and enjoy, escape, RP or whatever blows their hair back at that moment and I laugh, seriously hard, at your reasoning for people to SHOW thier identity and explain where any money they earn or get in sl goes. Its not your business or mine.

It's people such as yourself that brighten my day on the forums as it seems one ignorant post can't possibly top the next. BTW, who are you to decide what people should be allowed to do and how their privacy is treated in sl? I would love to know. Your response about posting to DISCUSS this topic I hope you realize was misleading. I am an intelligent person as I am sure most are on the forums who post and read here, you didn't start a "discussion" you were pushing your beliefs down others' throats and trying to gather some comments that would actually back your ridiculous vendetta against this so called public figure (lol I have yet to meet a public figure in sl in almost 5 years that works here) For the record if someone can dj and host, kudos to them, what do you do here besides track and harass others. I am sure you are going to start a new topic on how males can't be female avatars and vica versa, or maybe furries have to be non-human in rl or wait! Vampires must actually be rl vamps? This has got to be the most ridiculous post I have read in a long time. If iI was tipping a dj and/or host and they were the same person do you think I would care? NO. The club owner, if they have true business skills would not care how the dj/hostess was connected as long as they brought in a crowd and people were having fun. Maybe you are upset that you thought someone was male and found out they were female and you freaked? I don't know but I think there are bigger problems in the REAL world to care what this person is doing as it's none of your business. Hope you settle your issue with this poor soul and let yourself and them/he/she go on enjoying their sl. I can't stop laughing. LOL

p.s yes this is my alt :)

Edited to correct a typo..oops

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If you have access to a way to read the 2 IP Addys and those 2 IP Addys are the same even THAT is not proof that the human behind each avatar is the same person. It could well be for example a husband and wife connecting through the same router. In which you would see the IP Addy attached to the router not the ones attached to each machine.

You have no proof. Anything else is pure speculation or open to your own photoshopping to alter to your whims.

So really the intent of this thread is completely moot. Since no proof means you have no way knowing for a fact they are the same person.

Setting that aside to put something like this in your profile will open you up to being AR'd yourself which I assume is not something you want.

If you AR the DJ/Host as Fraud then you once again will need proof and even then LL probably will not see this as fraud but mearly as another resident vs resident dispute they will refuse to be involved in.

About the only thing you can do is get ahold of the club owner personal and make you "proof" available to them. Then it is up to them to act or not. Of course if you are proved wrong then you will look the fool not the DJ/Hostess.

In the end SL is not the real world. It is a private space provided and governed by LL. They set the rules. There is no free speach LL can and does dictate the nature of what we may say to each other in world be it in chat, IM or even our profiles. You agreed to this when you clicked th accept button. They have decide that no naming and shaming is the way to go so that is how it is. Unless you want to take LL to court and get that part of thier rules declared invalid over a few L$ voluntary transaction worth a few cents. In which case knock yourself out its your personal bankroll not mine.

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Thirdly, the ONLY way you could know that this person is supposedly an alt is 1) You hacked into LL records and looked him up...

Nope wrong again. Chuckle chuckle chuckle....  I learned of the Identity thru totally honest means.  And my husband is an attorney and he assures me that this area of law is evolving. And yes, the definition of a Public Figure is just emerging in SL.    

This is definately a lively discussion. But I am amazed at the people who want to make it personal about me instead of debating the issue.

This isn't about chat logs, drama, and silly reporting. This is about ethics in SL and the right of residents to be informed about scams, even small ones.

When I hear someone take such an angry, judgemental tone over a simple discussion, I wonder what the personal agenda is and what nerve I pinched. :) 

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Thanks for your comments.  I am glad you brought  your alt on to make a point.  But if you do read the comments, there are a few that do think this is a unethical practice.

But I am interested in all ideas and have not  personally attacked anyone who has taken the time to comment. I have defended my position but been respectful of those who offer another point of view.

 

 

 

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Well, let me help: In my case I guess you pinched the "BS" nerve, as in, this is BS. Right from the start I thought you were on some kind of mission and nothing you've said since has changed that opinion; quite the opposite.

The only honest way you could KNOW that your DJ and his Hostess are one and the same is if he gave you his login credentials (a TOS violation, so hopefully he didn't do that) and you personally logged in as both avatars, thus confirming that the DJ can control both avatars. Anything else acquired honestly, including the DJ himself publicly announcing that the Hostess is his alt, doesn't leave you KNOWing anything.

You've ducked, you've dodged, you've chuckled knowingly. It's been pointed out to you time and time again that even if exactly what you describe is happening really is happening, it is not only not a TOS violation but not even that big a deal ethically.

You are grinding that axe so hard it won't be long before you get all the way down to the handle. Watch for sawdust.

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Really what difference does it make? If the person is two people then they may be trying to save expenses by playing both roles. Tip or don't tip is your choice.

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"The only honest way you could KNOW that your DJ and his Hostess are one and the same is if he gave you his login credentials (a TOS violation, so hopefully he didn't do that) and you personally logged in as both avatars, thus confirming that the DJ can control both avatars. ."

You are so wrong, again. But you are only guessing.

And once more attacking me because I think this is unethical behavior and you do not.
 

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It's people such as yourself that brighten my day on the forums as it seems one ignorant post can't possibly top the next. BTW, who are you to decide what people should be allowed to do and how their privacy is treated in sl? I would love to know."

Are you usually so verbally abusive with your tone ? 

I am a resident of SL. and as a resident I feel that LL Welcomes my opinions and concerns about our community.   I do not make the rules, you and I both know this, and I do play by the rules.

Scams are a BIG concern in SL, even small ones. Change happens slowly, one person at a time. 

We do not agree on the ethics of this matter and that is ok.  But there is never any reason to verbslly abuse someone for offering a concerned opinion and a suggestion to improve the situation. 

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EvaFord wrote:

Thanks for your comments.  I am glad you brought  your alt on to make a point.  But if you do read the comments, there are a few that do think this is a unethical practice.

But I am interested in all ideas and have not  personally attacked anyone who has taken the time to comment. I have defended my position but been respectful of those who offer another point of view.

 

 

 

 

LOL you are glad I brought my alt on to make a point? I use my alt often as I am a business owner and don't mix business with pleasure. Interested and arguing with others' opinions (e.g. making your point over and over in various negative replies to MOST not all) are two very different things. I have not seen much respect to most of the posters who replied to you. Don't bother posting back to me I will not look at it as I do not care to see another one of your twisted comments :) , this thread is dead to me....moving along :matte-motes-yawn:

ETA: I actually didn't read your whole reply can you believe?  I am not verably abusive with my tone, so does tha mean others were too?? :)  Yet another proof of the type of trouble it seems you like to cause. Reread your replies to people, see if that helps you understand yourself.

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A DJ using an alt as a hostess reminds me of a band from the late eighties called Gaye Bykers On Acid who would play as their own support band in order to avoid sharing the takings with a support band.  Their "alt" band was called Lesbian Dopeheads On Mopeds.

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