Frauds and jerks in sl

[Walt Weston]

People get cheated by other people in sl, and I think it is a shame that honest people need to have such experiences inworld, and can’t do a thing about it.

 

My friend has just lost a lot of money and some furniture to a fraud, where she rented some land.

 

It is very sad that new (and old) residents in sl have to deal with frauds and jerks, and just have to accept that, without the possibility to complain about it anywhere.

 

I also understand that Lindens cannot deal with all personal issues inworld, because it is too difficult to judge in all the cases. But it is still rather sad though, and I am afraid it scares new residents away from this place.

 

Just some thoughts I needed to share with you.

[JeanneAnne]

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Walt Weston wrote:

People get cheated by other people in sl, and I think it is a shame that honest people need to have such experiences inworld, and can’t do a thing about it.

 

My friend has just lost a lot of money and some furniture to a fraud, where she rented some land.

 

It is very sad that new (and old) residents in sl have to deal with frauds and jerks, and just have to accept that, without the possibility to complain about it anywhere.

 

I also understand that Lindens cannot deal with all personal issues inworld, because it is too difficult to judge in all the cases. But it is still rather sad though, and I am afraid it scares new residents away from this place.

 

Just some thoughts I needed to share with you.

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 i have never been defrauded or cheated .. the closest iv come to it was to have practical jokes played on me .. if you dont rent or buy anything you cant get cheated .. if you dont take ppl seriously or care about what theyre up to so what if they lie to you? what does it hurt? they cant steal from you .. they cant harm you .. they cant do muchuv anything to you .. i guess they can "grief" you but iv never seen it personally .. & so what if they do? whats the worst that happens? they annoy you? so do something else til theyre gone .. maybe youd be better off not playing sl if what happens to you inworld upsets you so much that you make whiny forum posts about it

Jeanne

 

[Boudicca Littlebird]

I was by the big TV person here, i spent 5000 lindens in 2007 on a big TV, lots did, i could not get the movies so complained, lol, many know i don't mince my words, well he sent me a thing to update it, i rezzed this thing and the tv was deleted, i had no tv at all, he then muted me, so since that day i have made all my own script, have not bought a scripted thing like a tv or radio since, it did teach me a lot about script, cos i was a land baron then, so if it wernt for him i may have never got into script.

[Walt Weston]

You have never been frauded in sl, but you know all about how it feels - or how other people have to feel about it?

I think that frauds and jerks in sl and in rl are making the world a colder place to live in, but you do not care? It is all right, but I do care.

[Catwyn]

I am new to SL and quite honestly I don't find the jerks and frauds to be that daunting.

That said I do live by a few simple rules that I have learned over the years in online games.

1. Be very careful what RL information you give ANYONE. It is surprising how much someone can find out about your real life from a few passing remarks. Although you trust the person you told they might mention the information in passing to someone else who mentions it to someone else and before you know it it hits the hands of someone untrustworth.

2. Don't sweat small stuff. If you bought something for 5L and it isn't what you expected well its a small loss if the maker won't make good on it then just chalk it up to a bad choice and don't deal with the maker again.

3. Get recommendations from people you trust on the big stuff. Going ot make a 1000L + investment in something? Talk to folks find out who they like for that product and most important WHY they like them. This doesn't eliminate getting a bad deal but it does cut down the odds.

4. ALWAYS try the demos. Especially true with mesh where fitting is a big deal. If the demo can't be made to fit find another vendor.

5. When dealing with a merchant. Be polite, describe your problem carefully and completely, and never EVER lose your temper.

So far these 5 simple things have worked out well for me over the years.

[JeanneAnne]

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Walt Weston wrote:

You have never been frauded in sl, but you know all about how it feels - or how other people have to feel about it?

I think that frauds and jerks in sl and in rl are making the world a colder place to live in, but you do not care? It is all right, but I do care.

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i know this: games are sposed to be fun .. if they arent fun its stupid to play them .. iv not been frauded because i choose to play sl in such a way that i cant be .. if you choose to play sl in such a way that you can be frauded then dont whine when it happens

Jeanne

 

[Six Igaly]

It is very sad people have to deal with fraud period. SL is no other then RL.  And as well as IRL, not all people get scammed, just some.This will bring the question, is one scammed or did let one scam his/her self? If people should do their homework a bit better it would save a lot! Just my opinion.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

There are all kinds of people in SL just like RL, including theives and con artists.  It is not paradise or utopia and should never be mistaken for one.  You have to be as cautious in your dealings with others in SL as you do in RL, maybe more so.  Now add to that is the fact there are nor real laws other than TOS or police.  It's like the wild west was before goverment set up shop in various places.  You  have to rely on caution and common sense and do what is necessary to protect yourself as no one else will..

[Dilbert Dilweg]

Yep, I have always said.... where there is money involved. expect scammers. Scammers will set up shop in any place that money can be made. . Be cautious. protect your self. And report fraud to LL to help the community

 

 

[Walt Weston]

You are right. But on the other hand, why spend time on a game (is sl a game?), if it doesn't hit your emotions in different ways?

I have never been cheated myself inworld, but I hear about other people who has, I also hear about people felling in love and people who become very close friends in sl - or enemies.

So in my opinion sl is not just a game, but a place where you deal with other human beings in many different ways, and this we shouldn't forget.:matte-motes-smile:

[Walt Weston]

You are absolutely right! The wild west, LOL, good description :-)

[Qie Niangao]

The problem, I think, is that it's not enough like the wild west. Saloon keepers can't rely on a trusty 12-gauge under the bar to repel the jerks. It's the worst possible combination: no government, and only the criminals have effective weapons.

That said, it used to be much worse. Search "ginko bank second life" for details of the greatest swindle in Second Life's history.

Also, there are categories of abuse report for various types of Fraud. I don't know that they actually have any effect, but maybe.

Finally, the first post mentions losing furniture. I'm not sure what's meant by that, but if the sim is shut down, those who own objects on the sim are supposed to be able to ask LL to restore the sim long enough to retrieve their stuff... although I think there's a fairly brief window during which that has to occur. (I suppose, if it's not shut down, the sim owner could ban access and keep the stuff rezzed on the sim for a while, but that's an expensive enough bit of spite that it surely wouldn't be long before the stuff got returned.)

[Perrie Juran]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

 

Finally, the first post mentions losing furniture. I'm not sure what's meant by that, but if the sim is shut down, those who own objects on the sim are supposed to be able to ask LL to restore the sim long enough to retrieve their stuff... although I think there's a fairly brief window during which that has to occur. (I suppose, if it's not shut down, the sim owner could ban access and keep the stuff rezzed on the sim for a while, but that's an expensive enough bit of spite that it surely wouldn't be long before the stuff got returned.)

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I'm thinking also we don't have enough information to go by, what actually went wrong.  Just a very broad sweeping generalization by the OP. 

I'm not saying that someone didn't get scammed...we do know that it happens.  It's just the lack of detailed information here.

 

[Amza Hydraconis]

I'm sorry but as far as I'm concerned, SL is not a game.  It isn't like you are playing World of Warcraft, Monster Hunters or those race car games, etc.  You are dealing with RL people from all over the world.  There are businesses and higher education schools here.  They aren't treating SL as a game, but as a tool.  Others just come here to have some fun and meet people they otherwise wouldn't meet.  Some come to live out a fantasy they couldn't elsewhere.  There aren't just clubs here.  There are period sims; interests they couldn't do in RL but can here.  They explore their creative abilities.  This is no game. 

When others come in to grief, steal, and con you out of something, it becomes a problem for everyone.  Being mean about it as one person has very much made known about themself, isn't going to make the problem go away.  If this happened to you in RL you would be whining.  Telling others to not say something about it is idiotic.  You have a right to complain as it also warns others of the problem.  Having your money stolen isn't somethng to keep to yourself.  Also consider that whatever furniture was also taken was probably not transferable.  That's money done the drain as well. 

SL is not a game.  It's called Second Life for a reason.  It's having a second life that you couldn't do in RL.  It's doing things you coudln't otherwise do in RL and when some fraudsters and jerks make it difficult, you have the right to complain about it.  Do what you have to, to protect yourself.  NEVER, NEVER give out any personal information to anyone.  If you make it difficult as possible for anyone to hurt you financially or personally, then they'll go away.  Mute them so they can't grief you anymore.  And be cautious if someone different approaches you, as some jerks come back as someone else.

[JeanneAnne]

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Amza Hydraconis wrote:

I'm sorry but as far as I'm concerned, SL is not a game.  It isn't like you are playing World of Warcraft, Monster Hunters or those race car games, etc.  You are dealing with RL people from all over the world.  There are businesses and higher education schools here.  They aren't treating SL as a game, but as a tool.  Others just come here to have some fun and meet people they otherwise wouldn't meet.  Some come to live out a fantasy they couldn't elsewhere.  There aren't just clubs here.  There are period sims; interests they couldn't do in RL but can here.  They explore their creative abilities.  This is no game. 

When others come in to grief, steal, and con you out of something, it becomes a problem for everyone.  Being mean about it as one person has very much made known about themself, isn't going to make the problem go away.  If this happened to you in RL you would be whining.  Telling others to not say something about it is idiotic.  You have a right to complain as it also warns others of the problem.  Having your money stolen isn't somethng to keep to yourself.  Also consider that whatever furniture was also taken was probably not transferable.  That's money done the drain as well. 

SL is not a game.  It's called Second Life for a reason.  It's having a second life that you couldn't do in RL.  It's doing things you coudln't otherwise do in RL and when some fraudsters and jerks make it difficult, you have the right to complain about it.  Do what you have to, to protect yourself.  NEVER, NEVER give out any personal information to anyone.  If you make it difficult as possible for anyone to hurt you financially or personally, then they'll go away.  Mute them so they can't grief you anymore.  And be cautious if someone different approaches you, as some jerks come back as someone else.

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as far as im concerned SL is indeed a game .. there are all sortsuv games & goal directed rule bound games are only 1 subset of games .. open ended games like SL are still very much games

griefers & thieves & con artists are just playing the game according to their own rules .. its just their way of "explor(ing) their creative abilities" .. the game itself must bore them so they figure out how to play it in an antisocial way that appeals to them .. i dont condone this but its just human nature .. if some1 gets ripped off in the game & have a "right" to whine about it then i have a right to whine about their whining .. & to tell them to suck it up & be quiet .. if theyd played the game differently the games gamers wouldnt even have been able to rip them off .. thers tons of ways to play an open ended game .. some ways of playing open you up to being gamed & others dont .. so play in ways that dont or else accept the consequences for your choices

Jeanne

 

[Walt Weston]

Answer to Perrie Juran: It was not my intention with this thread to discuss this specific example of fraud. The case is very banal, and all of us old avas know, it happens all the time.

But I will tell you anyways what happened: Some people rent some land, the owner vanishes, and suddenly they have no home, no land, and the money they paid for renting the place has vanished into thin air. When their objects were returned, some purchased furniture is now missing (no, not in lost and found or elsewhere in the inventory) – strange all the freebies are still intact(?). Same day, a “new” owner buys the land and starts again to rent out plots. A “new owner” that is pretty much alike the previous one.

Of course you just can become a premium, the first moment you join sl, and buy your own land, instead of renting it from others, but that is not the issue in this debate.

I am just tired of there is absolutely nothing to do about those frauds who scares new residents away. We need new residents to keep the place alive, so we all can continue using it.

To JeanneAnne: I don’t consider sl as a game. In a game there is always some competition and a price to win. I consider sl as a place, where you interact with other human beings (with feelings) that you don’t have to defeat all the time. 

To Amza Hydraconis: Well spoken, just my thoughts exactly.

[Darkness Anubis]

Walt any older account has seen the cycle of the less than reputable landlord taking everything and running. In extreme cases where it can be proven that a covenant has been broken by the landlord action HAS been taken against the landlord. Those cases are rare though as the less than reputable ones just never spell out their own side of the responsibilities bargain. The only thing a consumer can do is research the landlord before they rent from them.

As for things disappearing into the ether. It happens. Usually with no copy stuff. If a sim gets shut down (as in off the grid) the stuff may not even get returned first and you loose everything. After all the sim and everything on it no longer exists. It is one of the risks of renting from someone else. SOMETIMES a merchant that keeps records of who purchased what will replace the vanished item if they are approached calmly and asked politely. It helps if you can provide a transaction number for the purchase. I know when I was still in business I did exactly this on a regular basis. Now its a bit more iffy as I might or might not still have a copy of the product left in my inventory from 4 years or more ago.

SL is and always will be the wld west. The lindens have to be very careful what battles they step into for legal precedent reasons. Its not a pleasant fact but it is reality.

[Perrie Juran]

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Walt Weston wrote:

Answer to Perrie Juran:

It was not my intention with this thread to discuss this specific example of fraud. The case is very banal, and all of us old avas know, it happens all the time..........

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Yes, I am aware that there are some people in SL with no scruples. Personally I only know second or third hand of incidents.  I can think of no one I know whom it has happened to.

I have sometimes thought that there should be a section of the TOS directed at Landlords and Ladies setting standards specific to what they do.  It is frustrating that there isn't from a Renter's point of view.

I posted my comment because while we do poke barbs and jest in fun many times in the Forum, many of us have in common that we want to help, we enjoy helping.  More often than not we see people come here with complaints, sometimes raging about issues, and once we get the facts we find that there is a simple solution.  Not always as in your friends situation, but often enough.  So we ask.

Thanks for responding.

[JeanneAnne]

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Walt Weston wrote:

 

To JeanneAnne:

I don’t consider sl as a game. In a game there is always some competition and a price to win. I consider sl as a place, where you interact with other human beings (with feelings) that you don’t have to defeat all the time. 

 

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this is a very limited definition of a game .. when me & my brothers were kids our mom bought us a bunchuv games that stressed cooperation over competiton .. you "won" by helping other players .. not trying to defeat them .. by your definition these werent games @ all .. what were they then?

yes .. human beings have feelings .. but its also possible to suspend those feelings in a game .. i like to rp romance for instance .. i act as if real feelings are involved .. but im certainly not goin2 allow my heart to be broken over a rp .. thatd just be stupid of me

Jeanne

 

[Aaron225 Halostar]

At the technical level, yes SL is a game. There are smaller games within SL. One of my favorites is racing cars best I can with my crappy FPS. Either that or trying t get my opponents to crash while they try to ram me out of the race. All in good fun.

What is NOT a game is people's feelings in SL.

 

With losing furniture (no copy no doubt) that can be an SL error, I have had that happen on my OWN land after a careless clean-up of my own mistakes

 

 

[Walt Weston]

About the part of loosing furniture, I am very sorry that I have accused another ava to do that. And I apologize for have been angry about it. Something very weird had happened since my last comment .

One of the avas who had lost their tenancy, rezzed a random object afterwards at his new land, and all the missing furniture got rezzed at the same time. So it must have been some technical error that have cost this, instead of fraud.

I do - however - still think, that to make some tenants who have payed a lot of tier, just suddenly be homeless without refund or warning, is fraud.

About talking of sl as a game, of course there are several and different meanings of what is in the word "game",  and how each members expectations of their "stay" in sl are. For some people sl is a very serious place to spend their time. Some uses sl as a rl (second) life, because they can't get much out in rl - diseases/wheelchairs perhaps - and some think that sl is just a light supplement to their rl an hour or two a week. There should be a place for both parts :matte-motes-grin:

 

[Zinjanthropus]

As a new person here, this is valuable advice. Thank you!

[Mickey Vandeverre]

"One of the avas who had lost their tenancy, rezzed a random object afterwards at his new land, and all the missing furniture got rezzed at the same time. So it must have been some technical error that have cost this, instead of fraud."

I've had a few customers the last few weeks that were not able to find their furniture in the lost and found folder, after hitting the button that returns everything all at once.

I think there might be a glitch or something, and it might not show up until after a log off or maybe even next day.

Several were unaware that when it is returned like that, that it goes into the lost and found folder as a grouping of items that has one title, and that the objects will not show up individually with individual titles, but you will find them as a grouping of little yellow boxes.

When you set that grouping out, they should all appear at once, make sure you are in a spot that has enough prims.  Then you can take them back one at a time, so that the individual titles and objects appear again in your inventory.

 

 

[Malanya]

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Walt Weston wrote:

About the part of loosing furniture, I am very sorry that I have accused another ava to do that. And I apologize for have been angry about it. Something very weird had happened since my last comment .

One of the avas who had lost their tenancy, rezzed a random object afterwards at his new land, and all the missing furniture got rezzed at the same time. So it must have been some technical error that have cost this, instead of fraud.

 

 

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Hi Walt,

I can understand your frustration about rentals and Landowners and things happening with no warning causing people to be homeless and lose their inventory, I have heard horror stories from other people that rented from nonreputable landowners. I did just want to mention that when I send back a renters objects when they are no longer renting it will go into their objects folder or lost and found folder. The objects are shown as a block with many little blocks (like when you have a set of furniture that is to be rezzed all at one time, it looks like that in inventory) and the name next to that object usually does't make sense, it will have the name of one of the objects contained in the whole group. That is how it comes back when a landowner returns objects. The landowner has no control over that, it's just how it works.

I am not sure about how objects get returned or if they do when a sim closes or a landowner lets go of a sim, I have never been in that situation and the landowner I help would never do that. I am sorry that this has happened to your friend, I suggest that if you don't purchase your own land that when you rent you check out the paerson you are renting from. I just wanted to point out about the inventory return and it's normal process with sl. Inventory can have other serious issues for sure and that is usually an sl tech problem but can be rectified with a few steps.

ETA oops sorry Mickey your post did not show when I replied to OP didn't mean for the duplication of answer.

 

[Walt Weston]

Malanya, thank you for the explanation about how things work in the inventory, when all ones stuff is returned by others.

I have been here since 2007, and I did not know :-)