Luschious Nightfire Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 So I got this idea the other day, when I tried to log on to SL, to find that some low life using the same ISP as me, and obviously the same IP pool has been banned. This is not a big deal as all I have to do is renew my IP. But this got me thinking, its totally ineffective, if I can bypass it so can the banned individual. Common knowledge really.Back in the day, noobs where locked in at orientation island, and couldn't access the main grid unless they "passed" all the tests. That being said, why cant LL make a prison island for banned individuals? like Australia, lol.. have them log in, but have them restricted to sharing their crappy existance with other griefers/unsavory folks on a secluded island, for as long as it takes for them to serve their prison term.Heehee, they could even get visitation rights if they behave, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Luschious Nightfire wrote: So I got this idea the other day, when I tried to log on to SL, to find that some low life using the same ISP as me, and obviously the same IP pool has been banned. This is not a big deal as all I have to do is renew my IP. But this got me thinking, its totally ineffective, if I can bypass it so can the banned individual. Common knowledge really. Back in the day, noobs where locked in at orientation island, and couldn't access the main grid unless they "passed" all the tests. That being said, why cant LL make a prison island for banned individuals? like Australia, lol.. have them log in, but have them restricted to sharing their crappy existance with other griefers/unsavory folks on a secluded island, for as long as it takes for them to serve their prison term. Heehee, they could even get visitation rights if they behave, lol. Actually they used to have one - it was called "The Cornfield." It's still around and there are "tourist" versions of it that you can check out. Part of the problem with it was that people would deliberately cause trouble so that they could check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceera Murakami Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 The problem is that LL has no reliable way to identify the griefers, really. As you pointed out, banning by the IP address of their computer is a worthless effort, that only blocks casual griefers that don't care much if they can come here or not. The serious ones can evade that easily. Aside from the IP address of the system used to create and/or access the account, they have no required identifying data and no validation of actual user identity for any accounts. You don't even need to give them a valid e-mail address and click on a link in an e-mail that they send to that address to get your account activated. If a known griefer account was 'banned to the cornfield', they would just create a brand new account and come right back, minutes later. Shortly after LL stopped requiring any sort of verification on the ID of people making new accounts, and ceased even making you give a validated e-mail address, I did a test, and created 5 new alts in ten minutes, and in that time also equipped one of them with a non-noob avatar and enough griefer tools to crash a sim. And I didn't have to spend a single L$ or do anything at all that could be traced to my normal accounts. Now, I'm not a griefer at all, myself. I don't do that sort of crap. I deleted the 5 alts after I had proved that it could be done, and after logging a report to LL asking them to please reconsider unlimited and unverified alt creation. (Which they ignored.) But if I could lay my hands on the makings of a new, unidentifyable griefer account that easily, you know it has to be common knowledge among the real griefers. In the 6 years that it has been possible to make unlimited numbers of new alts with no real identifying information provided, the only thing LL has done to restrict this huge security hole has been to limit account creation to two new accounts per day per IP address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwenting Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 "You don't even need to give them a valid e-mail address and click on a link in an e-mail that they send to that address to get your account activated." actually, you do. But that address doesn't have to remain valid afterwards, there's no recurring validation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Boyle Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I have long wondered how IP banning could be useful, though circumventing them is not always as easy as it was for you. I used to could change my (dynamic) IP address by changing the MAC address of my router. Now I have a different kind of DSL. It is supposed to have a dynamic IP address, but mine has not changed in over a year during which the modem was disconnected once for over three weeks. What I would think would be a bigger problem than ineffectiveness in keeping the target out is keeping a lot of non-targets out. I have accessed SL from several hospitals, many hotels, and several airports. If I did something to get IP banned while connected from one of those places, the ban would hardly affect me, but it would inconvenience a lot of other people, and maybe lose some customers for LL. It seems to me that it would be better to try to identify the computer. Microsoft is said to be able to tell if a user is trying to install Windows on a computer other than the one it is licensed for; if Microsoft can identify a computer, so can LL. Sure, a griefer can get a new computer, but most of them can't do it too often. They could also try to identify the user. There is a field called behavioral biometrics that is concerned with authentication based on behavior, such as typing pattern and pattern of mouse movement. Each of us has their own way of doing these things that can help identify us. It is not to the point of being able to be sure a user is a particular person or not, but it can compute the probability accurately enough to be a useful component of an authentication system. There is a product on the market that uses a combination of network information, information about the computer, keystroke dynamics, and logon credentials to authenticate people. One would think that LL would use something like that and would add the pattern of inworld behavior to the mix, which would make the combination even more specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothGirl Demonia Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 The same things I have complained to Linden Lab about for over a year because of being griefed by griefers and their Alternate accounts, not only myself but others as well. As people have pointed out here, You do not have to give Linden Lab any Information about who you are, You do not even have to give them a valid Email Address, or anything, in fact you can use anyones email address you want when you sign up and get others into trouble too I have had others try this on me before. I have pointed out these issues to LL, even pointed out 4 griefers causing havoc on people I know in SL, and guess what Nothing was done about it, and lets not forget all the people with disclaimers, and people running around with IP loggers, Red Zone, CDS, ETC. While IP logging isn't such a bad thing the problem is that the people who use it are complete dummys selling false information or products, and causing grief/harassment to other residents in the process because of something they can't prove all around. Yet today Linden Lab still has done nothing about any of these issues, I have asked things like Put ID Verification back into SL so that only people who have shown ID can get access to adult area's and such asked this over a year ago, and yet it still hasn't came back. I am not going to even bother explaining all the ways there are to do money laundry, grief residents, and much other stuff than to say other posters here are right IP address doesn't really matter I could get myself banned 10 Thousand times a day if I really had that much time in my life to waste in SL and come back with another IP address, and computer information every single time if I so pleased. " In fact to put it this way stealing money in Second Life is easy when you got all these share vendors, even some malicious objects that as debit permissions, should a large number of people accept them a griefer could cash out with hundreds of dollars worth of L$, nothing LL or you could do." I do not encourage griefing, or giving false information to LL, but the problem is every griefer knows about these, and Hardware/IP bans stop dummy griefers, but then those griefers go to YouTube/Google and search things like ( Second Life Banned) and they find out a way to get unbanned and how to do it that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoiselleErin Teardrop Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Gyod, if being griefed by certain people is that big an issue - find a new spot. I never got why people insisted on going places in SL or RL for that matter where they are just gonna run into drama. Are people THAT territorial in SL? With having a prison island in SL for the riff-raff, I doubt that would do much good cause no one is going to want to log into a game and be restricted to something like that. Besides, given that a lot of griefers are perverts and/or underage residents, would it REALLY be a good idea to deliberately put them on the same island? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Anubis Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Actually years ago they did send banned people to a corn field sim. Where there was basically NOTHING but a sim of corn. SO there sort of was a prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
161488303349 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Darkness Anubis wrote: Actually years ago they did send banned people to a corn field sim. Where there was basically NOTHING but a sim of corn. SO there sort of was a prison. and a tractor. brrmmm !!!! jejejejejje (: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irene Muni Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I'm not sure but when LL ban an account and the IP, Is not there also a computer ban? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova Convair Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 There is no IP banning of a person. Of course you can ban a specific IP or just leave it since it has no effect. Many people on this worls get a new IP every day and the rest gets a new IP manually. The ones who have a fixed IP's like students in a dorm, yes ban 'em all at once - very stupid idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Janus Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I wonder if people would still griedf if they had to pay to get into sl...and pay for alt accounts to. ? Personally as a long term sl user I think everyone should be paying a premium regardless... However if everyone were paying for both their original avy ( and a reduced amount for each alt) Lindens would then be expected in my book to reduced both premium fees and tiers AND positively stimulate the land market in the process.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
161488303349 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Maelstrom Janus wrote: I wonder if people would still griedf if they had to pay to get into sl...and pay for alt accounts to. ? probably not was heaps of griefing back before 2006. was actual quite worse then bc was really easy to crash sims and viewers and pinch stuff even without a copybot and scam the adverts auction and avoid paying tier on your land and stuff like that. was lots of holes in the viewer and server code back then + since linden fix the holes (most of them anyways) then is less greifing now than before. what greifing there is now is mostly social grief. like ppl saying rubbish to each other and doing the drama llama + now and again today someone will discover a hole in a new feature and exploit it for a time. but linden are pretty quick these days to close them. like what happened with TeleportAgent a few weeks ago. linden way better at respond to these kinda problems now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madman626 Fall Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I have to disagreed with you not everyone get a new IP ,, if it was why would LL use IP ban in the first place they might know something you don't ,,now in saying that mine never change yes I have a fixed IP and it at my home so if I got IP ban by SL that no way of me getting back on SL so yeah its works ,, I get tried off ppl thinking they know more then LL does NOT everyone GET a new IP but how likely is it that there other playing on my IP highly unlikely so yes IP banning works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova Convair Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Maelstrom Janus wrote: Personally as a long term sl user I think everyone should be paying a premium regardless... Sure. But most ppl wouldn't be in SL then - including me. I'd never joined if someone asked me to pay 1st. LOL - no chance. So you're right - in a deserted SL there won't be many griefers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothGirl Demonia Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 LOL well most actual griefers who I know of have thousands of IP addresses, and a lot of VPN's/Proxies to avoid being banned anyways. Changing your MAC address, and hardware information is also easy to give false info when connecting to avoid hardware ban. All Griefers I know of do this. There are some stupid griefers out there who actually do get banned if they get IP banned, but otherwise for the most it wont do anything. I have put up with griefer community groups for years sometimes one griefer gets into a community and griefs others even CopyBot others actively and daily there uploads them to a website for download basically the owners and admins of these places some of them are even so called high profiled creators who know people but do nothing about the people doing these illegal activities even when it has been proven they are griefing. Sometimes and it is rare, but I find a griefer on my own land because they have connections back to a group who previously had a CopyBotter in it, and I raged because that is how angry I get when I see this. One thing that makes me really angry is all the people who sucker up to others, and pretend to be little angels we don't know what a Bot is and they have a 1000+ day old account, or simply tell you they don't care... Seriously can a person be that dumb. Basically I have been told by some creator who makes content at one point they were going to file a DMCA because of another griefer who ripped off his store and make sure that I was busted in Real Life for theft of his work. Its been over 3 months, nothing happend. I was called a Terrorist In real Life by some I have no full clue to why, they said they were going to call the police because they think I griefed them, and guess what, that was over a year ago now total but nothing happend. The bottom line to griefing is that the Police don't care unless a Real Life threat has been made and can be proven via Linden Lab server logs, or actual account hacking/fraud nothing is going to be done, and even if by a very slight chance a griefer was actually caught in Real Life they could and would likely easily get off with no more than a court order by Linden Lab saying they could not use Second Life anymore thats about all that could happen. Griefing like it or not, and I don't agree with this of course, however Griefing is part of Second Life, or the game, if people can do it they will do it. Griefing is just part of SL I mean if I can rez 1000+ Cubes in a region and make them all physical duplicate them to 15k prims I can do it. Most MMO's that had such things would actually limit, or restrict griefing and such like patch exploits, cheats, or hacks to the game, but SL is that unique experience that allows griefing. I however agree that LL could do better to prevent griefing like giving residents the option to only allow people on their land or estate which have provided Real Life identity to Linden Lab, this would be in addition to age verification or something. If you haven't verified your ID you can't get in that simple, it would prevent a lot of griefing because if someone were to grief they would have to provide a new ID and be verified by Linden Lab for that matter. And the other thing is to require RL Information when signing up and confirmation of an actual email, possibly even Telephone Verification like google has. I have trolled some users on google before because they griefed me first, so I decided to go do some random trolling only like a day, well with this said I had to verify a phone number so it was a bit harder for me to get around not impossible, but it would restrict the griefer from making 100 Alternate accounts a day and getting all of these banned, yes there are ways around that, and I know of them, but for the most part it would stop most for now. The only thing I ask is why LL hasn't done this, and will they. Here is the funny thing however. I have more than one modem sitting here, and my IP address does change daily if I so choose to, I know that my primary isp changes IP's like every 6 months anyways. MAC Addresses I change easily, I have a program that changes these when I load up a software program. For those who do not know what a proxy or VPN is. http://www.proxifier.com/ http://www.freeproxies.org/ www.hidemyass.com http://computer.howstuffworks.com/vpn.htm https://www.wtfast.com/ http://www.freewebproxy.net/ http://anonymouse.org/ Proxies, and VPN's are actually great tools when used for certain things. For instance I find that in gaming if I connect to a server in a certain area and use it as a man in the middle to relay the traffic, or data from a game server to my computer I actually get improved ping times so there are legit uses for VPN's, or proxies, but they are also abused. Keep in mind that any actual illegal use of these services, Real Life threats, or anything like this the police, and or FBI can actually still find you unless you are at a hotel, or free wi-fi even then they pull traffic cams etc and could still find you. My point being these services log your actual IP themselves, and TimeStamp which is how they determine who is doing what too and can prove it was you in a court if they had to. There might be more to it but pretty much the basics I know of off hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deltango Vale Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 "In the 6 years that it has been possible to make unlimited numbers of new alts with no real identifying information provided, the only thing LL has done to restrict this huge security hole has been to limit account creation to two new accounts per day per IP address. " ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is a no-brainer that Linden Lab should require payment information for all accounts. Offer free accounts, sure, but require some kind of RL payment info. Having been an active resident for six years, I can honestly say that Linden Lab no longer gives a damn about Second Life. The concept of virtual worlds is way over their heads and they have almost zero ability to manage a business. The result is a perfect storm of incompetence. Linden Lab is overwhelmed, paralyzed, incapable of salvaging the mess they created. If people think I'm just moaning, contrast Linden Lab with CCP Games. Whereas Linden Lab goes nowhere, CCP Games is collecting mega kudos from the virtual world / gaming community for the quality of their products, the excellence of their customer service and the professionalism of their management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuria Augapfel Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Absolutely agree Deltango. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothGirl Demonia Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 CCP Games you mean EVE Online right because I play that game :3... At least CCP games actually dealt with that goon swarm person I think it was only a 30 day suspension for what he did at the CCP event I think it was... CCP actually dealts with people who do wrong things like the CSM I think they call it... In second life anyone who owns a simulator and griefs others with alts or breaks the EULA/TOS nothing gets done. I know LL doesn't get involved in residentual disputes however when they are in clear violation of the TOS/CS they should deal with issues that come up. I see many sims that say they have the right to disclose LOGS, and private IM's and breach privacy rights between residents, and lets not forget about Red Zone and all the similar systems to it. I am not currently even sure who is running LL but I would say it could use some better management, and who knows maybe they are working on something. I mean SL is still the best Service around for Virtual Worlds, but like the grief becomes way too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookie Claremont Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 You know I was reading this and it made me think of my friend who has been fighting to get her account back for almost a month now. You mentioned that a person using your same ip address got banned which inturn effected your ability to play so you had to refresh it. Well because someone who lived with her got banned after they moved out of her home, when she decided to come back and play after like 3 years and entered her password in wrong to many times, was permanently banned because her id was in close relationship with another id that had shared the same ip address that had been in violation of the terms of service. How exactly can they identify her as being in violation and hold her liable for someone elses mistake. What do they do when someone violates in a public cafe? Make it where no one can play in that cafe because of the mistake of 1 person. To me its just ridiculous to hold someone liable to another persons account especially when she has shown no account activity even prior to the day the other person got banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy Lane Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 I believe there was once a land like that , long ago when the first residents roamed the metaverse. I will ask the name of it from an oldbie i know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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