Unsolicited Advice to SL Merchants

[Rufferta]

This is for merchants who still maintain virtual stores in SL.

I realize this is presumptuous, as I am a newbie and all, but after visiting a lot of shops in the last few weeks (both as part of a hunt, and for buying things for myself) I found a lot of things that irritated me and detracted from my shopping experience. I'm hoping that pointing these things out may help some one else who is just starting out.

First off, I use the Marketplace as a starting point. I will search for something, and then look for a line that says "See this in Second Life". I also do a profile check when I find articles in SL that I like, and search from that. After a few unfortunate purchases, I will not buy something from someone who is does not have a 'virtual brick and virtual mortar' store. Even if the store doesn't have enough room to display everything, at least they are showing they feel connected to SL. I have also found that there are some great stores in SL that don't advertise on the Marketplace.

First off, choose a low-lag location. I don't have a magic ball to tell you how to do this, I just know that if I have been in a store for over five minutes and everything is still grey, I probably won't stay.

Second, be sure that your store can be found under search. I've found several instances where the store name as displayed on the store and on the merchandise doesn't match.  

If I'm just wandering through a neighborhood and see your store, it would be nice if a sign outside would give some clue as to what was being sold. (If I go inside and I still don't know, you're in trouble...)

Teleport directions. Have you checked yours lately? If you have changed the terrain or the building, you might need to check the teleport location on your advertising.

Enough said?

After your prospective customer has landed, will he be able to find the front door? Glass doors in buildings with glass windows should especially be marked. :)

A greeter is nice, but a "robo greeter has given you a landmark and wants you to join the group" before you are even in the door, or repeated more than once, is annoying.

Is your space set up so that your customer can move around and maintain a calm sense of body ownership? Some examples: store fixtures oversized so that customers feel like Alice in Wonderland unless that was your intention); merchandise packed together so tightly that an avatar can't 'walk around' (One store was not only cluttered, but had merchandise stacked in front of the doors. While I was outside using my camera to see things, a number of customers dropped in and hovered just below the ceiling - guess they'd been there beore). Another store had gaping holes in the floor and falling beams - help!

Teleports in large stores are great, just make sure they work. Twice last week I found stores with one-way teleports to another floor, but no way back.

Display of items on sale: You don't have to put absolutely everything on a separate display board - the menus with arrows work fine, just make sure each board says what it is for "Women's clothes", for example.

Have some rezzed versions of your product. Demos of clothing, hair, and skin are great. If you are selling houses, a teleport to at least one model is good. 

PRODUCT INFORMATION: (My greatest complaint). Please display the price! I went to one store that not only did not display the price, but insisted that you buy a gift certificate before trying to purchase.  A superior description of the product would state:

The number of prims;

The footprint;

The materials used (mesh, prim, megaprim?)

As well as copy/modify/transfer.

Make the information readable. 

I love SL! I am constantly amazed at the creativity and talent displayed in the community, and I am more overjoyed than annoyed, so please don't take my comments to mean I am unhappy. The things I am pointing out are in the minority. Most of the shops are wonderful.

I am now going shopping.

 

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Well, I'm certainly not a newbie and I agree with most everything you said.  I do not shop Market Place......the reason being is that I'm more or less a purist I suppose.  This a 3D virtual world that you sell items or products to use in that 3D virtual world yet a Market Place seller is selling goods for the world from outside the world.....that, to me defeats the entire idea behind Second Life as a virtual world built in 3D.  I think I know the reason for most Market Place only sellers......it's cheaper.  They don't have to own or rent land in SL to have a business.  Well, my answer is simple.........you won't get a sale to me without an in-world store/shop/presence.

Market Place is one big reason SL has become the mundane world for many of us old timers.  The "magic" is being thrown away by creators and marketers not being in-world for their business.  If you are a Market Place only seller, and you go bust I won't shed a tear......nor will I be sympathic when your Magic Box screws up your deliveries.  Go open a place in-world.

[Calamari]

I've closed down all my inworld shops, if I had a choice I'd only have an inworld shop and leave the market place, but with 80% of my sales coming from the market place, my inworld shops were loosing $L even my main store which had top inworld search placement for classified and the everything category.  The traffic from the inworld classified was around 2 to 4 people per week.  I used several inworld marketing groups and participated in many hunts, but still 80% sales from the marketplace, 4 years ago it was the other way around 80% of my slaes were inworld.

Beside low inworld sales , many merchants have closed down inworld shops due to Linden Labs poor treatment of merchants, the lack of decent sales reports for inworld sales, and broken inworld search.

Until things change in SL I will not have an inworld store again, but that dose not stop me from providing great customer service and making quality products.

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

"...

Until things change in SL I will not have an inworld store again, but that dose not stop me from providing great customer service and making quality products."

------------------------------------------

And it won't change as long as Market Place is the "store" of choice for both the customer and the store owner.  That is going to make SL even more barren that it is now.........only clubs and houses (all empty because everyone is shopping at Market Place.  A downhill spiral that will excellerate as time goes on.  Shopping used to be a very popular pass time in SL...it isn't anymore because all the shops are no longer in world.  You're traffic is down in world because you have a shop on Market Place....but you must if you want to sell stuff because "everyone" has a shop on Market Place. 

Well, here's one gal who'll never purchase a thing from your Market Place shop.........I don't shop for virtual world stuff outside the virtual world I'm in.

[Princess Verwood]

Great points Rufferta! I definitley agree. I have been in those same situations and thought the same! Annoyed!

IMO, not purchasing from a marketplace only merchant is a personal choice, so is having a marketplace only store. Sometimes it just isn't logical to have a in-world store at the rate sales have been going on SL since the Marketplace has become the main focus for purchasing.

As a merchant, if for some reason my situation changed (lost sim, finances changed, couldn't keep in-world any longer, etc) I would not hesistate to go marketplace only. I guarentee that the vast majority of people who have both, a marketplace store and an in-world store will tell you that most of the sales still very much come from the marketplace. For me, if that would indeed be the case then the few people who do decide to limit themselves to purchase from merchants who have an in-world store would probably not really make that much of a dent in sales to make me go back to in-world (espically if finances wouldn't allow).

Putting the price on ads just like the choice to have an in-world store is completely personal preference. I personally don't put price on ads beacuse I'm usually involved in events or sales, etc or even if I wanted to change the price for whatever reason it is much easier than to constantly re-do pictures and re-upload all because I have the price listed. But again, from merchant to merchant it's just personal preference. :matte-motes-smile:

[Peggy Paperdoll]

And watch sims go away and abandoned mainland grow.........and complain about SL dying.  Which finally will impact Market Place.  Everyone will wonder why they just can't get sales to finance their intertainment (and their land where they have a "home".......that is mostly unused because you are not in-world tending to your SL business but tending your Market Place business instead).

To tell you the truth, I don't really care myself.  I know how to make the clothing I like.  I know how to build.  I make all my own textures.  I can't make hair but I have so much in my inventory now that I'm good for a few years in that department (besides, I'm pretty sure I could mess around and figure out how to twist torus' around myself).  Shoes, pretty much the same (I got more than I need now).  Skins.....got that covered too (my own).  As far as I'm concerned all the stores could go away both in-world and Market Place and I'd not miss them much at all.  But you're shooting yourself in your foot abandoning the place where you depend on remaining healthy for your "income".

A smaller SL would suit me just fine........something like the old days with less than 10K concurrent log ins.  SL seemed much more populated back then.......and we had a lot more fun too.  More playing and less "business".

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

And watch sims go away and abandoned mainland grow.........and complain about SL dying.  Which finally will impact Market Place.  Everyone will wonder why they just can't get sales to finance their intertainment (and their land where they have a "home".......that is mostly unused because you are not in-world tending to your SL business but tending your Market Place business instead).

---

You can't blame people for closing their inworld stores if they are not at least self supporting. Most people can't afford to operate at a loss all the time, even if they are doing OK on MP.  Why pay a commission to LL for sales on MP, then use the net to pay them tier in world thereby eating up any profit?  Its just business.

Certainly it is your choice to shop where you want to shop.  I shop marketplace and if there is an inworld store I'll go there and buy it if I can just to save the merchant the commission and of couse some things I want to see before buying.  But there is no real advantage to shopping for clothes, or many other items, as you only have a picture to go on in world or MP, 

If you want to blame some thing for inworld stores closing blame the high cost of land and blame the time and inconvenience of shopping inworld.  Inworld search is borked,.  Many times you have to try to tp multiple times to get places and then are hit with lag too.  I don't consider shopping entertainment and many other people don't either. I'm not going to spend all day searching for a couple items because of all the things mentioned when I can obtain it on MP in a few minutes and go back to what I do consider fun.

Saying that merchants are responsible for SL's downfall because they don't have an inworld store that bleeds them is unfair.  The blame goes on LL for the technical and financial issues that make an inworld store not viable. Actually I'm beginning to wonder if the undisclosed long range plan is to move most commerce out world and focusing soley on residential and entertainment in world.  Other VW's are like this and seem to do ok.

 

[Calamari]

---

Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

"...

Until things change in SL I will not have an inworld store again, but that dose not stop me from providing great customer service and making quality products."

------------------------------------------

And it won't change as long as Market Place is the "store" of choice for both the customer and the store owner.  That is going to make SL even more barren that it is now.........only clubs and houses (all empty because everyone is shopping at Market Place.  A downhill spiral that will excellerate as time goes on.  Shopping used to be a very popular pass time in SL...it isn't anymore because all the shops are no longer in world.  You're traffic is down in world because you have a shop on Market Place....but you must if you want to sell stuff because "everyone" has a shop on Market Place. 

Well, here's one gal who'll never purchase a thing from your Market Place shop.........I don't shop for virtual world stuff outside the virtual world I'm in.

---

I din't chose to close my inworld shops down, I'm unemployed in RL and counden't afford to pay RL $ to keep them open.

My inworld traffic wasen't down because I have a store on the maketplace it was down because more people chose to use the marketplace then shop in world, largely because LL sticks a link to the maketplace every where they can, and has left inworld search borken for years.  Ranking for inworld clasified adds is a joke, the single most importaint factor isent how much you pay, isent keywords, isent title of the add or the name of your shop or the land its on, it's not traffic, it's not if your items are listed in search, the single most importaint factor is the avatars name. 

I'm not arguing with you about where you shop, I'm just trying to point out that the actions and inactions of LL has made it really hard to for some merchants to keep their inworld stores.

 

[Calamari]

---

Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

Well, I'm certainly

not

a newbie and I agree with most everything you said.  I do not shop Market Place......the reason being is that I'm more or less a purist I suppose.  This a 3D virtual world that you sell items or products to use in that 3D virtual world yet a Market Place seller is selling goods for the world from outside the world.....that, to me defeats the entire idea behind Second Life as a virtual world built in 3D.  I think I know the reason for most Market Place only sellers......it's cheaper.  They don't have to own or rent land in SL to have a business.  Well, my answer is simple.........you won't get a sale to me without an in-world store/shop/presence.

Market Place is one big reason SL has become the mundane world for many of us old timers.  The "magic" is being thrown away by creators and marketers not being in-world for their business.  If you are a Market Place only seller, and you go bust I won't shed a tear......nor will I be sympathic when your Magic Box screws up your deliveries.  Go open a place in-world.

---

It's comments like this that make me want to leave SL. 

[Sassy Romano]

---

Calamari wrote:

I din't chose to close my inworld shops down, I'm unemployed in RL and counden't afford to pay RL $ to keep them open.

 

---

I can relate to that, I was in between jobs when I started my business here but there are ways to keep that inworld shop even in those circumstances.  With an annual premium membership @ $86.40, you get back about $66.40 so the actual cost is $20 per year or $1.67 per month.  Sure you only get 117 prims but you get an inworld presense which is what some people want to see, that was the sentiment of the original poster.

If the virtual business can't cover $1.67 a month in expense then it's simply not a viable business.

I know that some will scoff and throw their arms up and explain how they can't possibly have a shop with less than 10,000 prims because they make ultra high prim content, in fact that has been given as a reason before, soon followed by a bemused one about why they don't sell like they used to against sculpts and now mesh content.

You have to cut your cloth accordingly is all.

[Jacki Silverfall]

I also had a inworld store for almost a year, guess what no one came to it! Despite advertising, low prices, group notices.

Typical comment, coming from you.

[Czari Zenovka]

I appreciate your perspective from a customer's point of view and taking your time to post here, Rufferta.  I too agree with almost everything you said and have encountered some of the same issues as a customer.  As other merchants have stated, the vast majority of my sales come from the MP but I have kept a small in-world store to allow customers to at least see some of my products before purchasing.  Your post confirms that decision and I'm very pleased that not being able to display everything is not a deterrant.

The only point I have any disagreement with is putting a price on the vendors; Princess provided almost the exact response I was going to give:

---

Princess Verwood wrote:

Putting the price on ads just like the choice to have an in-world store is completely personal preference. I personally don't put price on ads beacuse I'm usually involved in events or sales, etc or even

if I wanted to change the price for whatever reason it is much easier than to constantly re-do pictures and re-upload all because I have the price listed.

But again, from merchant to merchant it's just personal preference. :matte-motes-smile:

---

(Emphasis mine.)  In additon to the above, I would just add that in my shop the price can be easily determined by either clicking displayed items for sale, getting the pie chart that says "Buy" which will then bring up the price. (I do that all the time in other stores as it is a common practice in furniture stores to be able to purchase the displayed item instead of having a vendor as well.)  My vendors are set to "Sell Contents" so a click on the vendor will show the items plus the price; click cancel to back out.

As Princess said, I may offer a promotion, gift, etc. or just adjust the price for whatever reason and like the flexibility of not having to upload another texture for the same item.

 

 

 

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I can't disagree with you at all.  But, it's like all this talk about supporting Medicare in the US right now (an election year).  Our government is at the root of the problem but we perpetuate it by supporting what the government is doing because we can gain from it ourselves..........and now that Medicare is drowning all of us in debt, we scream bloody murder because it's beginning to hurt us.

LL is at the root of the problem.  When they bought out the SL Exchange a few years ago the talk was mixed......it's great for business and will grow SL or it's business in SL's death blow.  I think it's the latter.  And since I have no business in SL and I can make everything I really need (not everything I might want but what I need) I was actually neutral on the subject.  History has shown the latter is what's taking place.  It's a little sad but it's the way LL is taking SL......enjoy the ride as long as you can then jump off, I guess.  I've been here for over 6 1/2 years (quite a bit longer than most stick it out).  Some of the magic is gone from when I first came in wided eyed and amazed back in 2005.  LL has changed, the demographics have changed and I've changed........it happens.  But losing the in-world stores is very disappointing.  LL started this mess but merchants have helped it along too.  So, I'm without sympathy for those who choose to keep Market Place only shops for their goods.  Sorry it that upsets anyone.

[Czari Zenovka]

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

---

Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

And watch sims go away and abandoned mainland grow.........and complain about SL dying.  Which finally will impact Market Place.  Everyone will wonder why they just can't get sales to finance their intertainment (and their land where they have a "home".......that is mostly unused because you are not in-world tending to your SL business but tending your Market Place business instead).

---

You can't blame people for closing their inworld stores if they are not at least self supporting. Most people can't afford to operate at a loss all the time, even if they are doing OK on MP.  Why pay a commission to LL for sales on MP, then use the net to pay them tier in world thereby eating up any profit?  Its just business.

Certainly it is your choice to shop where you want to shop.  I shop marketplace and if there is an inworld store I'll go there and buy it if I can just to save the merchant the commission and of couse some things I want to see before buying.  But there is no real advantage to shopping for clothes, or many other items, as you only have a picture to go on in world or MP, 

If you want to blame some thing for inworld stores closing blame the high cost of land and blame the time and inconvenience of shopping inworld.  Inworld search is borked,.  Many times you have to try to tp multiple times to get places and then are hit with lag too.  I don't consider shopping entertainment and many other people don't either. I'm not going to spend all day searching for a couple items because of all the things mentioned when I can obtain it on MP in a few minutes and go back to what I do consider fun.

Saying that merchants are responsible for SL's downfall because they don't have an inworld store that bleeds them is unfair.  The blame goes on LL for the technical and financial issues that make an inworld store not viable. Actually I'm beginning to wonder if the undisclosed long range plan is to move most commerce out world and focusing soley on residential and entertainment in world.  Other VW's are like this and seem to do ok.

 

---

Wanted this posted again because you explain the situation very well, Amethyst.

[Josh Susanto]

>Market Place is one big reason SL has become the mundane world for many of us old timers.  The "magic" is being thrown away by creators and marketers not being in-world for their business. 

I'll give this more consideration when you've (instead) successfully directed your energy to getting LL to fix the in-world experience, itself.

My own in-world experience, except in the isolated places where I make stuff and load my boxes is mostly just grief and lag at this point, except at those rare moments when things rez well enough for me to be able to see that someone in an "art gallery" is trying to get me to buy women's shoes for a price far higher than what I would be paid by the hour to make them myself. 

And I mostly don't see the shoes anyway, but just a picture of them. What's that about? If I want to just see a picture of something I'm not going to buy anyway, doesn't it make more sense for me to wait a fraction of a second for the picture to load on the Marketplace website, rather than having to log in and teleport to a place where the posted picture takes 10 or 15 seconds to rez, pointlessly eating up one prim of data (and, gradually, my life; a non-renewable resource)?

Lag or no lag, grief or no grief, The Marketplace, it seems, is the only thing that has prevented the in-world experience from becoming basically a big trip to a bunch of shopping malls full of the same stuff I don't want to buy, even if I can actually see it rez.

That even the vacant lands are still unable to properly support even the adjacent data from abutting sims doesn't seem like a merely economic challenge best met by putting in more shopping malls. But maybe I'm wrong? OK... how?

That being what it is, I really don't know why people are buying my stuff on the Marketplace anyway. Maybe just because it's low-prim and low-lag? I can't think  it would be just the low price, or they would just be buying the cheapest stuff I have (that's not the pattern).  Wherever they're putting it is probably about as far away as possible from the lag farms that in-world merchants have poured over the surface of SL like a corn-based maple syrup substitute in order to coax the odd Linden Dollar out of any lost n00bs who should not manage to make their way straight to a public sandbox to make their own houses, cars, guns, shoes, or hair.

>If you are a Market Place only seller, and you go bust I won't shed a tear......

Why would I go bust if I don't have to rent huge chunks of land just to display items that actually are faster to get a visual sense of by looking at snapshots on the Marketplace?

The people for whom I don't shed a tear are the ones going bust with in-world shops who think they have a greater right to profit than I do just because they pay more to push their own kipple in-world, especially to the extent that they're less concerned with their own product quality and more concerned with what they contradict themselves by saying is competition from the Marketplace by mostly very inferior products... and especially especially those who continue turning a net loss in-world while ambiguously suggesting that their land costs should be subsidized by crippling or shutting down the Marketplace.

>nor will I be sympathic when your Magic Box screws up your deliveries. 

My magic boxes don't screw up deliveries. The Marketplace system, itself, screws up deliveries regardless of what's connected to it, and I believe that it does so intentionally, in order to drive merchants back in-world to boost demand for land.

>Go open a place in-world.

Worst advice ever, thanks.

Other than maybe making you dislike us less, what's in it for us?

Anything?

[Ela Talaj]

Who ever said that SL was intended as a virtual shopping mall? The only reason there are merchants and stores is because a vast majority or players cannot themselves create items they need for RP, socializing and creation and don't have time to learn.

It is these people, the customers, who spoke loud and clear that they prefer shopping from a web page. The Lab does not force anyone to buy from the Marketplace, that is what people pefer. It saves enormous amount of time which can be devoted to what a player is in SL for and most players are not in SL to go around and buy what they don't need. Accordingly it would be somewhat unwise for a merchant to not keep presence in the Marketplace.

I've an in-world store which has been at the same location for years, never moved, and will be there I guess till the Lab turns the grid off. But most sales are in the Marketplace because that is where people can read what my products are and what they do. Why on earth would I spend time and effort to change customers preference to buying from me in-world? I could not care less where they buy for as long as they do buy

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I don't dislike you..........I think you are making a mistake is all.  What did I say that makes you think I dislike you?  Because I don't want to hear you whine when people stop buying things since there's nothing in SL but clubs and houses is why.  That's not saying I don't like you........that's saying that your problems about selling anything depends on the people who buy them and if their's not people in-world to enjoy the product you sell on Market Place (or, really, I mean fewer people because there will always be people in SL).  Take a look at the big map....see how many green dots there are.  Yeah there's some 50 to 60 K at any given moment but count the green dots on a single sim.......it's often 1 or 2 with an occassional 3.  That's very different from just about 3 years ago when there were 10 to 20 on many sims.  Those sims were sims with shops and in-world stores.  Their gone now........and that, is a shame.  That gives the impression that SL is empty (that's not true but that's the impression it gives)..........that drives away people from SL.  And when they are driven away you won't sell a thing to them.  Why do you think everyone's sales are down?  The products sold are the same or better quality and the prices are not any higher for the products, there are more people, (yeah more sellers too....but not any more percentage wise than in 2005).    When all the dots you see on the map are newbies who are trying to make up their mind about staying, or oldies like me who probably have everything they want (at least, most of what they want but not shopping for anything new), sellers who are scratching their heads wondering why no one is buying much of anything (both in-world and at Market Place), or bots.........you aren't going sell much to any of those. 

I know the reasons for slow business in SL is not a single reason.  There's the real world economy, there's the complexity of SL (that infamoous learning curve), there's the vast size of the grid and no easy way to find your way around, there's the problem involved in getting your items in front of potential buyers' eyes........and tons other reasons.  Yes, LL started this mess (I said that in an earlier post) but the merchants are just as guilty.........they perpetuate it by closing stores in-world (it's too expensive, I can't get search to work, it's laggy, it's........*insert any excuse you choose*).  It's a fact of life in SL (and not much different that the same fact of life in real life).

I'm not going to petition LL to change..........there's no incentive for me to do that.  I don't own a shop so I'm not loosing a single linden over this.  I'm also not entirely sure I wouldn't mind SL shrinking in size and going back to what it used to be...I'm very aware that nothing goes back to the "old days" but it sure can get a little better than it is now.  All I seem to hear anymore is LL is screwing the merchants.  Maybe they are but the merchants sure are helping them do that screwing.  I don't see it changing....not now or ever.  I just wish the merchants would be a little more responsible for their own actions and admit that they are complicite in their own issues with sales dropping like rocks.  Percentage or responsibilty?  LL--60%  merchants--30% and other--10%. 

I don't dislike you...........I just don't like hearing you whine all the time and point the finger exclusively at LL.

[nikita Jefferson]

I am glad to hear you say that Peggy,i have always felt that way about MP and SL, SL is a virtual world, warts and all.

All MP is to me is a way for LL to tax sales which they cannot do on SL.

As for the OP one cannot automatically appear in search ,search has always been screwed, i never found my shop in search for about a year,i tried the classifieds a couple of times , then by magic i appeared in search and have been in a good position ever since.

I tried those things you can buy that are supposed to help you move up in search but they did'nt work for me

As for lag, that depends where one has a shop, i have a homestead so i have no lag at all, the worse place is Mainland and Zindra, i find Zindra hopeless,i will not go there and mainland is frustrating waiting for stuff to rez.

Sorry if i am repeating stuff ,i have'nt read the other posts, no time right now

I just wanted to tell Peggy i agree 100% ,people find it too easy to shop on MP, i mean after all one does;nt have to go into SL to shop,i'ts a bl**dy 3d world, thats what you do.

Anyway all i see MP as is a way for LL to extract more money from every sale, i"m sure it has hurt their inworld land sales because who needs a store inworld when one can open a shop on MP and just pay a percentage of sales, very cheap way to have a shop.

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Nikita, seeing your name reminds me of somthing else that I truly miss since so many merchants have moved to the Market Place as their primary stores (or even their only stores).  I remember being in your shop one time a long time ago (I don't remember what you even sell in SL.....it's been that long ago).  What I remember is that you were there in the store.  I don't know what you were doing....maybe updating items, checking sales, tending to a support problem, or just being there in case anyone had questions or problems (that is not really the point anyway).  You never get to see the store owner or creator anymore.....it's just a name listed on the product or at the page header, no visual image or presence of who you are dealing with when you purchase something.  So many merchants pride themselves in their customer support (many who have posted here in this thread).........but a little tiny thing like being in the same place that your customers are in is such a boost to confidence for people like me who are looking to give you lindens for something you are selling. 

I can remember very vividly one other store owner/creator (I won't name her or her store simply due to not wanting to promote anyone over another).  She sold skins and, at that point in my SL life, I was a really skin fanatic (freak).  I danced at the time and skins were important.  She was almost always present in the store.  She remembered me by name after the very first skin I bought from her.  Asked me how I liked the skin (the skin by name that I had purchased a week or three before).  That impressed me.........here I was a single person who bought a single skin one time in the recent past and she remember me and the skin I bought.  How would that be possible on Market Place?  It's not...........and that is something I dearly miss about in-world stores.  Customer support/service is way more than just replacing borked or mis-directed items.  It's showing your SL face to the people you are depending on to give you lindens.

And I'm a little thankful that you chimed in...........I was starting to feel a little lonely here.  Getting accused of disliking merchants and other implications that are simply not true.

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

I can't disagree with you at all.  But, it's like all this talk about supporting Medicare in the US right now (an election year).  Our government is at the root of the problem but we perpetuate it by supporting what the government is doing because we can gain from it ourselves..........and now that Medicare is drowning all of us in debt, we scream bloody murder because it's beginning to hurt us.

LL is at the root of the problem.  When they bought out the SL Exchange a few years ago the talk was mixed......it's great for business and will grow SL or it's business in SL's death blow.  I think it's the latter.  And since I have no business in SL and I can make everything I really need (not everything I might want but what I need) I was actually neutral on the subject.  History has shown the latter is what's taking place.  It's a little sad but it's the way LL is taking SL......enjoy the ride as long as you can then jump off, I guess.  I've been here for over 6 1/2 years (quite a bit longer than most stick it out).  Some of the magic is gone from when I first came in wided eyed and amazed back in 2005.  LL has changed, the demographics have changed and I've changed........it happens.  But losing the in-world stores is very disappointing.  LL started this mess but merchants have helped it along too.  So, I'm without sympathy for those who choose to keep Market Place only shops for their goods.  Sorry it that upsets anyone.

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As for your naive uninformed (or more likely politically biased) opinions on the root cause behind the vast majority of the US National debt, that is best left for another forum.  But just to enlighten you a bit... go research some facts as it surely was and is not because of the new US Healthcare system. 

Considering the US Debt was poking at a massive $14 Trillion before the new US Healthcare act even exsisted.  Maybe you will realize that the debt you are mired in now is moreso rooted behind the trillions of $ paid to corrupt Wall Street finance brokers as bailouts for several massive Wall Street corruption scandals - scandals that have been allowed to develop & fester because of a certain political administration in the 80s the removed US Banking regulations and controls.  And also because of the $ trillions of spending on the miliary to support the wars spawn using the excuse of 911. 

The recent US national healthcare program is a drop in a big bucket to what makes up the US Government's debt crisis.  Bur I am sure Peggy that you even know that - it doesnt help promote what your last post exposed as your personal political agenda / bias.

 

As for you not having any sympathy for those that choose to only keep a MP store.... I really dont think anyone cares if u have or dont have any sympathy for these Merchants.

Anyone can come onto this forum and post a righteous statement critisizing merchants that dont have inworld store, but in all honesty these opinions hold little water.  For many Merchant, it make complete economic sense to not have or to start shutting down inworld stores - regardles of what a few old SL residents hate.  The facts speak louder.

I do have a small inworld store but I only maintain an inworld presence because my monthly rent is so low that it worth it for me to keep it.  Over 70% of all my monthly sales are coming from MP.  30% comes from inworld sales.  If I had a significant monthly rent then I would be losing money on my inworld operations.,  Trust me - if that were the case I would close my inworld store immediately.  I am not going to maintain this inworld store only because a couple old thinking SL Residents want to think back fondly of the good old days.

Merchants of SL are here to make a profit.  LL is responsible to operate SL in a manner to ensure that its SL inworld environment is growing - not declining.  LL has clearly screwed up many aspects of business / service strategy to allow inworld stores to evaporate.  Dont blame the Merchants for this.  Go complain to LL for this.

 

[nikita Jefferson]

I know what you mean Peggy,i chimed up long ago my views on MP, i do not like it but i did list my products on here but i have found it a waste of time, i searched my avatars once and found myself on ,if i remember right , could have been skins ,but i was on page 36000 odd  so i never had a chance of being seen, i don't sell much on MP and i don't care ,its free so it costs me nothing,if i grab a sale once in a while then thats ok,my primary love is my SL shop

I just hate that MP has taken inworld shoppers out of world,i, like a lot of others are looking at other virtual worlds where it is only a 3D world with no MP,

I love my shop,it's like a hobby, i am always up there tweeking this and that,i say up there because its 3000ft up,so we have the island below as our private home,but the sky shop has allowed me to make my shop  a full sim size, it is actually huge

But i am with you Peggy, and have been of your view since MP opened

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I didn't say anything about Obamacare.  I used Medicare as an example of a the US government creating a huge debt problem and the US citizens helping that debt along by taking advance of the give away (of every tax payer's dollars).  It's out of control now and everyone is going to suffer because of the problem.  The Government is at fault for creating the program but the citizens are also at fault to using the program for their benefit.  So, who's mis-informed?  Who needs to do some research?  And, lastly, who needs to learn how to read the English language?

On my not having sympathy........I'm only talking about the merchants with MP stores only.  Meaning the merchants who do not maintain an in-world store.  By not having sympathy for them does not mean I dislike them......he means what I said.  No sympathy.  Having a business in SL is not, at all, unlike having a business in real life.  If you choose to go a route to further your business that someone does not agree with then accept the fact that the person who does not agree with you won't be sympathic to your problems with your business.  You can certainly point a finger at LL for the problem (and that finger pointing is accurate)........but you also need to stand in front of a mirror and do some pointing too.  Your choice is also part of the problem.  If you want my sympathy, then quit being part of the problem.  That doesn't make me dislike you.

And, finally, I've mentioned before that I'm a Tea Party supporter..........all your crap about Obama Care and other such government give aways are falling on deaf ears.  You will not win me over..........not matter how you state your BS.  I'm not going discuss politics with you or anyone else here in the forums.  It's obvious you have a difficult time reading English anyway.........it would be such a waste of time.

[Princess Verwood]

I agree very much to some extent to what Peggy is saying. I too wish that in-world shopping was what it once was. On the other hand some things mentioned just sound silly. Blaming the merchant for "helping" the problem when it is more like either you hop on the wagon or get left behind. SL changed, you had to if you wanted to stay in it and some people just don't not have a choice to go Marketplace only. You only limit yourself when you buy in-world only.

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

To tell you the truth, I don't really care myself.  I know how to make the clothing I like.  I know how to build.  I make all my own textures.  I can't make hair but I have so much in my inventory now that I'm good for a few years in that department (besides, I'm pretty sure I could mess around and figure out how to twist torus' around myself).  Shoes, pretty much the same (I got more than I need now).  Skins.....got that covered too (my own).  As far as I'm concerned all the stores could go away both in-world and Market Place and I'd not miss them much at all.  But you're shooting yourself in your foot abandoning the place where you depend on remaining healthy for your "income".

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I can definitely appreciate someone who is self-sufficient. We all have to be some times.

I never said I depend on in-world sales for a healthy income. I'd be silly to think that it could be. No offence, but for someone who is able to create it all, yet has an opinion (that you're very much entitled to) about merchants choices when you’re not in there trying to survive in-world alongside the rest. Let's just say you had an in-world store only. You'd be sadly mistaken if you think you're not missing out by not selling on the Marketplace. Like I mentioned above you either hop on the wagon or get left behind. I'm very much with you on I wanting shopping to go back in-world. However, until you have given it an honest try for yourself, be it successful or not, then maybe you'd be able to relate to the decisions/choices that need to be made to stay in business.

People conduct their business in their own way. And a part of being in the business and having the gift to be creative is to be free in what you'd like to do and sell/market your products.

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

If you choose to go a route to further your business that someone does not agree with then accept the fact that the person who does not agree with you won't be sympathic to your problems with your business.  You can certainly point a finger at LL for the problem (and that finger pointing is accurate)........but you also need to stand in front of a mirror and do some pointing too.  Your choice is also part of the problem.  If you want my sympathy, then quit being part of the problem.

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I agree here with the bolded when it comes to RL businesses. On SL it is not that black and white. There' s no reason that merchants should have to take any blame for the Marketplace being the main center for shopping. The marketplace is what it is because people prefer it over TPing from place-to-place in-world. It is like the Mom & Pop store in RL. You could very much still be in business just from local sales and regular customers. But since the age of the internet if you want to expand your customer base and stay current to stay in business then you'll need to convince Pop he needs to get internet and a web page.

 

ETA: to make it not all italics

 

[Josh Susanto]

>I don't dislike you.

Thanks, and sorry for putting words in your mouth.

> Because I don't want to hear you whine when people stop buying things since there's nothing in SL but clubs and houses is why.  

I don't see the connection between people buying or not buying things and there being or not being more in-world venues for products. If anything, though, I would think that more options in terms of where to rez products and leave them rezzed would just potentiate even more sales, so fewer in-world shops could actually mean more total commerce.

> Take a look at the big map....see how many green dots there are.  Yeah there's some 50 to 60 K at any given moment but count the green dots on a single sim.......it's often 1 or 2 with an occassional 3.  That's very different from just about 3 years ago when there were 10 to 20 on many sims.  Those sims were sims with shops and in-world stores.  Their gone now........and that, is a shame. 

It's a shame that less land and bandwidth and user time are being sucked up by the less efficient process of trying to find and buy what they want in-world rather than from a website? 

You seem to be defining the concurrency problem not in terms of how much value users are able to derive from their time logged in, but merely in terms of how much time they spend logged in for whatever reason.

If that's a good standard, though, maybe we shouldn't focus at all on the commerce angle and simply petition LL to make it longer and more complicated for people to log out once they get logged in. Probably more of the lost concurrency is due to the loss of camping opportunities than to anything else. I think camping was probably really a great thing for the economy, but not because it put green dots on the map. The green dots just tell you that server resources are being allocated. It doesn't tell you anything at all about the quality of user experience or a willingness to buy anything. 

>That gives the impression that SL is empty (that's not true but that's the impression it gives).........

It doesn't give me that impression at all. It gives me the impression that there should be less lag, although, oddly enough, there isn't. People are still not facing the connection between mesh and lag because there "shouldn't" be one, but I think by now we should all be able to see that there is one. I don't suggest getting rid of mesh. I suggest - well - something else, hopefully. And that to be followed by a more responsible testing process for new system features.

>that drives away people from SL.  And when they are driven away you won't sell a thing to them. 

I don't doubt that people are being driven away from SL. I just don't think they're being driven away by not enough dots on the map. Clusters of dots are clusters of lag as far as I'm concerned, and little else; less and less every year so far, really. But whoever they are, a lot of them are still buying stuff, at least from me, so I make a point of trying to help everyone feel welcome and appreciated.

>Why do you think everyone's sales are down? 

You mean everyone's but mine? Maybe it's because they set their prices not according to consumer demand (as I do), but instead as a reflection of their costs, which, unlike mine (almost nothing) are much higher than they probably need to be. I'm not going to raise my prices to try to compensate for listing enhancements or land costs if it doesn't improve my bottom line. That sounds like a no-brainer, but when I see what people complain about not being able to sell enough of, and how they are trying to sell it, it's clearly not a no-brainer for everyone. Not even close.

>The products sold are the same or better quality and the prices are not any higher for the products, there are more people, (yeah more sellers too....but not any more percentage wise than in 2005).   

It's not the number of merchants that needs to be considered here, but the variety of products. And the Marketplace is an extremely efficient research tool for anyone considering to offer something. For example, I didn't have to poke around in-world to find out what would be competing with my recent cactus kit product. It all popped up on one page on the SLM. The more limited ability of consumers to do comparison shopping in-world could probably have prevented my cheaper (and better?) cactus from being a competitive threat to the other products that popped if I had to sell it in-world. But because of the SLM format, the other cactus people will likely have to offer something better or cheaper, and they are now also faced with a more complex dilemma in terms of deciding on listing enhancements. Sorry, guys - the consumer's demands come before my appreciation of your own interests.

In other words, the marketplace is an intrinsically more pro-competition format than the in-world thing.

Consumers like that, and who can blame them?

But some merchants don't. Which ones? I probably don't need to explain that much further for you to see the point I would make anyway. Let it suffice to say that the more people are getting a slice of the pie, the thinner the slices will be for the fat cats of yesteryear if they happen to get lazy. I think we can all agree, though, that a bigger pie would be nice. Throwing money down the LL in-world commerce hole just isn't going to magically make that happen, though. Consumers are not interested in playing along with that, and there's no reason they should be.

>When all the dots you see on the map are newbies who are trying to make up their mind about staying,

They don't leave because of inadequate bombardment with in-world marketing for massively overpriced items. 

>or oldies like me who probably have everything they want (at least, most of what they want but not shopping for anything new),

I buy almost nothing myself. But I think I'm part of a larger and larger demographic segment of people who buy stuff mostly just to build other stuff they can sell. If the world should come to be populated mostly by us, I can see that might be a problem. I wish I could say I have a solution to that, but I don't. Possibly, the inevitable reaching of some maximum consumption threshold by users could be made less important by offering users something more expendable for their money, such an a series of experiences rather than just huge piles of stuff. Museums (for some fee) may not sound exciting to a lot of people, but if they were developed and managed properly, I suspect they could be a repeat draw for both newer and older users. 

>sellers who are scratching their heads wondering why no one is buying much of anything (both in-world and at Market Place), or bots.........you aren't going sell much to any of those. 

I agree about the bots, certainly. They're just one more reason why I don't think that concurrency stats are a reliable indicator of the general quality of user experience. Camping is a similar problem, but it at least caused money to circulate, which is what it is supposed to do in order to enable production and consumption. Total money spent in-world is at least some kind of a measure of consumer confidence. That is; even if users should happen to be enjoying their experience less, spending more would seem to mean that they value their experience more in at least some way, or that they have greater hopes for the future of the medium.

>Yes, LL started this mess (I said that in an earlier post) but the merchants are just as guilty.........they perpetuate it by closing stores in-world (it's too expensive, I can't get search to work, it's laggy, it's........*insert any excuse you choose*).  It's a fact of life in SL (and not much different that the same fact of life in real life).

I don't see these things as excuses, necessarily. I see them as people facing how the medium has changed and adapting their own behavior to compensate for the change as well as they can. If LL does something to make in-world commerce a less dicey proposition, I intend to take advantage of that if I can. I just don't think the way to do that is to pretend it's possible without LL leading the way with substantive systemic improvements, and I don't think that discouraging customers from going to the marketplace is a good idea either. The money to pay for land has to come from somewhere, regardless of what gets rezzed on it, and if LL has created a situation in which consumers prefer to shop from a website, LL should probably try to fully support both things. Instead, it seems like they think they can just push SLM sales to the grid by making the SLM suck (no, they can't). 

>  Maybe they are but the merchants sure are helping them do that screwing.

Sorry, but I still don't understand how merchants making more land and more data resources available for consumers to rez something screws other merchants. If the grid is too big, it's too big, and it isn't, never was, and never should be a merchant's responsibility to fill it in with shops. Especially if they can't be run profitably in any case given all the reasons for which people are not going to come to them. I'm generally sympathetic to users wanting LL to do better in various ways, and I'm sympathetic to merchants wanting help figuring out what their options really are about various things. But our responsibility as merchants is more to consumers than to each other.  In that sense I think it's less of a screw to other merchants if I don't open an in-world store I never intended to open in the first place, even before Xstreet, and more of a screw to consumers if I do choose to open that store and then try to generate extra money to sink into that bottomless hole by tweaking my behavior as a merchant in the SLM. 

My customers are getting as close to the product they want at as close as to the price they are willing to pay as I can offer them, and they're getting it through the SLM. If I open an in-world store, I will no longer be offering them that. That would not be good market capitalism, and it would therefor not be good for the SL economy as a whole. 

[Lasher Oh]

There is nothing that saps my Second Life will to live more than in world shopping. It's a rare day when I allow my partner to bully and drag me in to  visiting an in world store. Where we spend at least 10 minutes waiting for everything to rezz and then another ten minutes to try and work out what item the other is actually looking at and from what angle. Only to find that she or I wanders off to or flys to another end of the  sim sized store or  is camming into the store or room next door.

And then there are the stores where the owner builder feels like reinventing the rules of retail display and make it well nigh impossible to find  what you want because their futuristic  concept of store design is in their eyes - cool. *shudders at memories  of a particular giant minimalist dance animation store*

Besides, I  view all stores simply as 3d server space. A sim or a parcel  to me is a slightly more elaborate web site with some added interaction  advantages and a good few disadvantages. So for the most part I prefer to buy from the Marketplace where the product board always rezzes in a timely manner and the price is clearly displayed. Then I can  quickly buy and  head in world to play.

The only exception is when I am looking to buy some landscaping materials or a house but even then my first port of call is the Marketplace and the better the pictures provided the more chance I will head  on in to inspect.

I gave up on in world search a year ago - I flatly refuse to use it because it is so distorted and borked. So in spite of all it's many faults the Marketplace is understandably the best way to  find and buy  SL goods 

^L^