ChinRey Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Drake1 Nightfire wrote: my bi-pedal mesh avs are still very complex, and will remain so after the new skeleton. They are done by some of the best in SL. Oh, in that case there's no need to worry. If it's made by some of the best, it shouldn't take more than a week or two before you receive a lower lag upgrade. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 ChinRey wrote: Drake1 Nightfire wrote: my bi-pedal mesh avs are still very complex, and will remain so after the new skeleton. They are done by some of the best in SL. Oh, in that case there's no need to worry. If it's made by some of the best, it shouldn't take more than a week or two before you receive a lower lag upgrade. Problem solved. Right, because the new skeleton will vastly change how a rigged mesh Lycan is rendered and will lower the ACI to almost nill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 polysail wrote: The vast majority of non-human based avatars are presently comprised of sculpted prims or compounded "alpha layed meshes" Both of which are easily outperformed by a rigged mesh with the new skeleton bones. If, as a designer I want to make a minotaur out of sculpts, to do so convincingly may use somewhere between 50-160K complexity to just achieve the form of the creature, nevermind attempts to animate it. With the new skeleton that same form can be more efficiently created, and more convincingly animated while at the same time still keeping it's complexity rating at roughly 25-30 K total. Not sure where you are shopping but most non human avs are mesh now.. Still not sure what a new skeletn will do for a humanoid av.. no wings, no extra legs.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whirly Fizzle Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 ChinRey wrote: Aethelwine wrote: Chimney, I am curious to know where you got those numbers Determing the SRC for an item is easy, just switch rdner weight display on, wear the item and see how the number change. It's not exact, the render weight display is calculated by the viewer using a slightly simplified forumla, but it's clsoe enough the difference has no real significance. The render weight for textures are according to the official formula. It's easier to do it this way - Rez or wear the attachemnt, edit it, click the "More Info" link in the edit floater. The amount that attachment will add to the avatar complexity cost is the "Display Weight". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polymath Snuggler Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Don't argue with me when you're that wrong. Note: Some of these avatars actually had under 80K ARC ( upper right corner had a nice elegant low 30K ) even with their multi-alphalayered head meshes. That doesn't mean that Bento won't let them be even lower ~ and more animated and interesting. Most were 200K+ though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Did you even look at what i posted for pictures? Full mesh avs. Not heads and paws, not anthro ad-ons, not furries. Full mesh avatars. How will a new skeleton help lower arc? You keep saying it will but give no reason as to why. Avs will have to be completely remade and reworked to have a lower arc. Its akin to when people said Mesh clothing would make SL better.. Except they had to do serious juggling and workarounds to get it to fit and then it too mesh bodies with mesh clothing specifically rigged for it to look good. System body and mesh clothing never looks right. So tell us all, how will a new skeleton magically make all existing mesh parts lower arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polymath Snuggler Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 All current mesh heads ( human and non-human alike ) are either completely static and boring or they have complex multilayered meshes that are used to fake playing animations. That's how non-human avatars blink, smile, open their mouths, pretend to talk. Those polys are wasted and inefficient. Removing them because they will be replaced by an efficient bone and animation system reduces the render cost of the avatar. I don't know how you haven't quite picked up on that yet. Perhaps you're the owner of some really inefficiently made mesh avatars that are utterly stoic and statuesque in the facial region. But that's not the case for the vast majority of non-human content on SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Aethelwine wrote: Chimney, I am curious to know where you got those numbers and if there is a more detailed explanation anywhere for how the ARC Is calculated. The reason I am curious is because I have seen a comparison of mesh bodies and heads where the ARC value is very different from the complexity of the mesh measured by the number of vertices. The relationship between the two figures was the inverse of what you would expect. My understanding is that the rendering cost is how hard it is to render an avatar in any given frame. Many of the bodies that have high polygon counts but low ARC's have many additional triangles that aren't normally textured and visible - for example, alternate hand poses, etc. The rendering engine automatically ignores these triangles when it's rendering a frame but that data still needs to be sent to your viewer when that avatar arrives. It will take longer for that avatar to show up the first time because more data is sent, but it won't necessarily be difficult to draw (i.e. reduce your graphics framerate) it when it finally arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Theresa Tennyson wrote: My understanding is that the rendering cost is how hard it is to render an avatar in any given frame. Many of the bodies that have high polygon counts but low ARC's have many additional triangles that aren't normally textured and visible - for example, alternate hand poses, etc. Yes and that's one of the weaknesses I mentioned. The formula wasn't updated when new materials was launched so it completely ignores them. That means it underestimates the render cost of items with normal and/or specular maps and overestimates the ones with parts hidden by alpha masking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyll Bergbahn Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 I have my complexity set at 200,000 on Black Dragon at the moment and so many avatars are still jellydolls. Probably less than 50% are under 80,000. Issues: One avatar at 188,073 is fully rendered looking at front but a green jellydoll from the back. kb number from front is 8640 kb and from back 20,630 kb so number is in red and she becomes a jellydoll. One avatar is a purple jellydoll at 109,229, well under my 200,000 limit, but has 48.428.8 kb in red under the complexity figure so presumably that is what is causing her to be a jellydol. Anyone know what the kb number refers to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whirly Fizzle Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Nyll Bergbahn wrote: One avatar is a purple jellydoll at 109,229, well under my 200,000 limit, but has 48.428.8 kb in red under the complexity figure so presumably that is what is causing her to be a jellydol. Anyone know what the kb number refers to? I believe there is a 10MB limit for attachment memory. Not sure if that limit has changed recently though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyll Bergbahn Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Thanks Whirly:) That explains it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polymath Snuggler Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Yes ~ approximately 45% of all avatars are over 80K. I did a little measuring test and submitted a JIRA on it in the hopes that they would back off the 80K line. But they seemed rather intent on keeping it there. ( Though supposedly it changes based on what your grapics card is? ) He're's the study. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-10967 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 So script counting is passe' now? This is just something else for people to obsess over. Thanks Linden Lab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wherorangi Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 on my neko outfit I am 121,063 complexity i have a 660GTX when on my own by the ocean then on default recommended graphics Shadows Projectors (mod to non-imposters set to No Limit which is how I prefer it) the FPS is 68 when in crowded places where some people are over 200,000 complexity then it slows down to about TV rates of 24 FPS. It can get down to 16FPS in really stressed out places, but I find that when the FPS drops below 16 then I am going to get a TDR graphics crash most times anyways so altogether I am not going to worry about it much at all this said I think that as a guide tool for content makers going into the future then its pretty good thing but for me personally right now I am not going to fuss about it, or fuss about anyone who is currently blinged out with current content ps. I will most likely get a 1070 card next soon hope so, and worry about it even less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wherorangi Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 polysail wrote: All current mesh heads ( human and non-human alike ) are either completely static and boring or they have complex multilayered meshes that are used to fake playing animations. That's how non-human avatars blink, smile, open their mouths, pretend to talk. Those polys are wasted and inefficient. Removing them because they will be replaced by an efficient bone and animation system reduces the render cost of the avatar. . i just start with saying that I think Bento is brilliant and is well worth the resources that LL have/are putting into it, and all the effort and time that residents have also put into it also is time well spent this said, its not going to turn out how you might be thinking here people are going to take everything available to them in Bento, and then they will make even complex multi-layered meshes and overlay them to simulate even more complex morphs and when they do then things are going to get even more busy And then the LL dev team are going to go: oh! man. These people are just so arrrrghh! And then some newbie junior LL dev is gunna say: umm! why didnt we just give them the ability to create customs morphs in the first place ?! And then a senior oldbie LL dev will probably turn the fire hose on them (: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Theresa Tennyson wrote: Aethelwine wrote: Chimney, I am curious to know where you got those numbers and if there is a more detailed explanation anywhere for how the ARC Is calculated. The reason I am curious is because I have seen a comparison of mesh bodies and heads where the ARC value is very different from the complexity of the mesh measured by the number of vertices. The relationship between the two figures was the inverse of what you would expect. My understanding is that the rendering cost is how hard it is to render an avatar in any given frame. Many of the bodies that have high polygon counts but low ARC's have many additional triangles that aren't normally textured and visible - for example, alternate hand poses, etc. The rendering engine automatically ignores these triangles when it's rendering a frame but that data still needs to be sent to your viewer when that avatar arrives. It will take longer for that avatar to show up the first time because more data is sent, but it won't necessarily be difficult to draw (i.e. reduce your graphics framerate) it when it finally arrives. The Catwa head Jessica is made up of 3,931,000 Vertices, Lelutka head's about 62,000. Yet the ARC for Catwa head is 8,270 and the Lelutka 49,900. I do get a noticeable difference wearing these heads, the Catwa often takes a few logs to load, friends with that head often look like eye ball and brain monsters. The Lelutka head loads fine, they are both animated heads, they both look smooth. So what is going on with the ARC? and why does the low value head cause more problems than the high ARC head? How can a head 70 times more complex than the other have a fifth the ARC? If people work reducing their ARC to avoid being jelly beans and wear the low ARC head then that will cause more headless people on the grid and more rendering problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 BilliJo Aldrin wrote: So script counting is passe' now? It's been passe for ages. Except for sim crossings and some seriously overloaded places (like the big trade events) scripts hardly ever cause significant lag these days. Lag in Second Life is nearly always client side. It easy to blame the servers since they don't have anybody to defend them but the fact is, they keep updating the scenes steadily 45 times a second. More than fast enough for a smooth, lovely feel but that doesn't help much when the personal computers that are supposed to render it all can't keep up. BilliJo Aldrin wrote: This is just something else for people to obsess over. Not at all, it goes right down to the core functionality and purpose of Second Life. Second Life is supposed to simulate a living, vibrant, dynamic world people can immerse themselves in and be a part of. Lag is one of the three main factors to destroy this immersion (the other two are the camera position bug and the awkward UI). Second Life is also supposed to be a social medium and it fails msierably at that when people avoid crowded places because of the lag. So no, lag is not just an obsession, it's one of the mai factors that reduce Second Life's quality and popularity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 wherorangi wrote: people are going to take everything available to them in Bento, and then they will make even complex multi-layered meshes and overlay them to simulate even more complex morphs and when they do then things are going to get even more busy I have to admit that is something I worry a lot about too. The people involved Project Bento are the absolute elite of SL avatar creators - names like Flea Bussy, Medhue Simoni and Toady Nakamura just to mention a few. These guys can perform miracles of course, they've showed that over and over again. But what happens when the baby is handed over to the rank and file of content creators? People who may be great designers and sellers but lack the techincal skills and understanding necessary to use SL's resources efficiently? We can just hope LL has learned from past mistakes and taken that into account this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Aethelwine wrote The Catwa head Jessica is made up of 3,931,000 Vertices, Lelutka head's about 62,000. Yet the ARC for Catwa head is 8,270 and the Lelutka 49,900. Wow, that is extreme. It is of course well known that the Catwat mesh head is one of the laggiest things you can wear in SL and it's a serious problem if QuickGraphics fails to catch soemthing as obvious and serious as that. I can think of several explanations but perhaps this is something we should just try to pass on to the higher powers. I've taken the liberty to copy your post and throw it into the Black Hole of Vain Hopes: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-17356 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Thanks Chin Rey, I will check the Jira later and update it with Chalice Yao's information from the other forum when I get back from work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polymath Snuggler Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 No no! ~Script count still matters. Just Avatar Complexity matters TOO. They both affect different things. Script count bogs down the simulator ( the CPU of the sim ) too many scripts and you'll find it difficult to walk around, type and enjoy yourself. Even if you use the viewer settings to turn everyone into a Jelly AV, if the script count on the sim is too high walking will seem boggy and you may not be able to move your avatar around at all. However, you'll be able to see that you can't walk around properly at a nice fluid 30 FPS and cam over to the other side of the sim without crashing, you just can't walk your avatar over there. What quickgraphics addresses is the OTHER type of lag, the type of lag that turns SL into a slide show when you land in a highly populated sim as your poor computer tries to draw the scene over and over again but just can't because there's too much stuff in it. You can be on a sim where walking around is quick and responsive (no scripts at all ) but your viewer will be crawling along at 2-3 FPS. So your Avatar will be able to walk around but camming will be difficult, as it'll look all stuttery and slide-show like. Frequently both types of lag go hand in hand, as populated sims have both a lot of overly complex avatars ( which causes a lot of slide-show FPS lag ) who also are loaded down with a bunch of scripts, that make walking incredibly difficult. Usually these places have 100's of VENDOR scripts too ~ ( because C88! ) and so walking becomes even harder. *Both still matter*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conifer Dada Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 I think the jelly babies are great! I've set my limit at 150,00, so there's usually a few at any busy club I visit. It certainly seems to reduce lag. What I wonder is how to get the message across to people that if they load their avs with too much stuff, some of the people they're trying to impress will see them as jelly babies! Maybe the next stage would be for LL to make it possible for landowners to set the maximum avatar complexity for visiting their land. If people TP to a location get a message "Your avatar complexity exceeds the limit set by the landowner." they would know to do something about it. The 'about land' tab could include the actual limit set by the landowner so that the visitor could find out how much they have to simplify'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova Convair Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 polysail wrote: No no! ~Script count still matters. Just Avatar Complexity matters TOO. They both affect different things. Script count bogs down the simulator ( the CPU of the sim ) too many scripts and you'll find it difficult to walk around, type and enjoy yourself. Even if you use the viewer settings to turn everyone into a Jelly AV, if the script count on the sim is too high walking will seem boggy and you may not be able to move your avatar around at all. However, you'll be able to see that you can't walk around properly at a nice fluid 30 FPS and cam over to the other side of the sim without crashing, you just can't walk your avatar over there. Wrong. You didn't keep up with the changes in the last years. Scripts will not lag you in any way. The sim uses only its spare time to run scripts. If there are too many scripts running they will simply get not enough timeslots to run. The result is: slow running scripts. The only thing scripts will lag is - themselves and other scripts. If you cant walk thats either your computer, rendering too slow (thats why we got the jellybabes) or your connection is bad or the sim is overloaded by too many physics and other sim events happening. Scripts will get the remaining time here and that means in this case they are all barely running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Aethelwine wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: Aethelwine wrote: Chimney, I am curious to know where you got those numbers and if there is a more detailed explanation anywhere for how the ARC Is calculated. The reason I am curious is because I have seen a comparison of mesh bodies and heads where the ARC value is very different from the complexity of the mesh measured by the number of vertices. The relationship between the two figures was the inverse of what you would expect. My understanding is that the rendering cost is how hard it is to render an avatar in any given frame. Many of the bodies that have high polygon counts but low ARC's have many additional triangles that aren't normally textured and visible - for example, alternate hand poses, etc. The rendering engine automatically ignores these triangles when it's rendering a frame but that data still needs to be sent to your viewer when that avatar arrives. It will take longer for that avatar to show up the first time because more data is sent, but it won't necessarily be difficult to draw (i.e. reduce your graphics framerate) it when it finally arrives. The Catwa head Jessica is made up of 3,931,000 Vertices, Lelutka head's about 62,000. Yet the ARC for Catwa head is 8,270 and the Lelutka 49,900. I do get a noticeable difference wearing these heads, the Catwa often takes a few logs to load, friends with that head often look like eye ball and brain monsters. The Lelutka head loads fine, they are both animated heads, they both look smooth. So what is going on with the ARC? and why does the low value head cause more problems than the high ARC head? How can a head 70 times more complex than the other have a fifth the ARC? If people work reducing their ARC to avoid being jelly beans and wear the low ARC head then that will cause more headless people on the grid and more rendering problems. The problems you're seeing with the Catwa head are because all those polygons take a long time to arrive at your viewer and everyone else's. Once they arrive, most of them aren't drawn at all. It's two completely separate things. It's as if you have two classes in school - with one of them your nightly assignment is to read 10 pages out of a 1000 page book, and with the other you read all of a series of 100 page books every night. The book for the first course will always be heavier to carry; the assignments for the second course will always take longer to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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