Prokofy Neva

Do you run a Second Life business that in fact is your real-life income with which you feed your family? Is your little side business in SL now what your family may have to rely on because your RL jobs are paused, shuttered, done? Tweet your Congress people to include e-Commerce in the bailout for business due to COVID-19 https://www.ebaymainstreet.com/campaign/tell-congress-dont-leave-small-ecommerce-businesses-behind?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=campaign_1098838

I'm glad you're at least thinking in the right direction. Well as Rodney Collin said, if you can't do anything else, if you have nothing else to give, you can at least give a smile, that costs nothing. I think what many are slow to grasp now is the interconnectivity and interdependedness of human beings. If self-care doesn't involve an eye to the Golden Rule and basic decency and old-fashioned religious self-sacrifice, it's in fact damaging to the self in the long run. I bet we're going to hear enormous screaming from people whose Internet has slowed down or Amazon slowed or stopped as these services either turn themselves to mission-critical work or are ordered to do so by authorities. We're going to hear an enormous amount of ranting and raving from Ayn Rand libertarians and Soviet-style socialists which abound in the Second Life community that "the man" has "trampled" on their rights, that either the Deep State or Evil Capitalism have crushed their special snowflakes. Other-care *is* self-care now. And that's why I'm not going to be discouraged by notions of "staying on topic" that may be too limited. Even on a very good day, the forums are a toxic, self-centered, self-aggrandizing place with most posters never actually logging in world or sticking their head up above their hunker bunker to see what the rest of society is all about. So for self-care for some might quite rightly be simply ignoring forums like this, Reddit, Twitter etc if you don't have the ability to screen facts and usefulness out from insanity.

I actually think a completely different approach is needed. Yes, self care is nice and as I said, knowing from my years at the UN, the first rule of relief work is never to become a case yourself. Make sure you have food and water and medicine if you need it. Even so, our society could use more Christian/Jewish/Muslim/religious ethos of self-sacrifice for the sake of others. I'm ok. Do I need to worry about putting on lotion now or should I see if my elderly neighbour has food? Yes, fresh air is nice, but have I even called my grandmother? I think not enough people realize that this is not about a chance to hole up and watch Netflix and practice your omelette recipes and post funny pictures of your cat. If you are able bodied and not sick, you need to figure out what you are doing to lesson the burden in your community for those who are sick or taking care of the sick.

I guess you don't appreciate the value of your free press in the EU, which is available to question, correct, and independently check things like UN statistics. As for your other extreme libertarianism and hatred and suspicion of multilateral institutions -- which itself becomes a kind of totalitarianism -- no bandwidth no, sorry.

In the United States, the states are responsible for health, education and welfare, not the federal government, except at a higher level of aid to states that are less well off. So do start ignoring Trump; sparring with Trump; expecting a bailout from Trump. I'm very glad that Cuomo, who I voted for but am not thrilled with (his stance on abortion and his corruption) is exercising real leadership and taking drastic measures that need to be taken. DeBlasio should be removed or ignored the way Trump should be. The NJ governor is also doing pretty well with this. Local leaders are what you need to look to and encourage now. The endless blathering about what Trump did or didn't do now is so irrelevant that I have no words. What's relevant is whether a local leader can commandeer hotels to provide hospital beds and enforce shelter in place while keeping free media open.

Could I urge all of you that are still in relatively safe conditions, with food, running water and Internet, and your main concern a slow run of Netflix or Balducci's taking more than an hour to deliver or your Amazon groceries a day late: you do not have the luxury to be scared, do not be scared, and focus on doing every single thing in your power to help first yourself to survive (first rule of rescue work is never become a case yourself), then your immediate family and neighbours with as much groundedness in real life and bricks and mortar as you can muster while sheltering in place and practicing social distancing and clean hands (please disinfect glasses and doornobs too). I'm at Ground Zero for the virus, across from hospital row in New York City. We have the most cases in the country. It's very bad here, and the newspapers do not even know the worst of it yet. I've already been in quarantine for 14 days now as I'm immune-compromised. My medicines began to run out and basic staples. I can't go to the store, which were emptying even 2 weeks ago. NOTHING I have ordered on line has arrived, whether from 14 days ago; 7 days ago; let alone 4 days ago. Not "overnight prime Amazon"; not "overnight" FEDEX. Local store deliveries take a minimum of *three days*; local pharmacies are NOT delivering, full stop. My daughter has been working in a hospital without masks because they've run out. She's screening frightened cancer patients and their relatives for the virus. Her co-workers are sick. It has breached the hospital walls as you may have read. She was able to get a few masks from her boyfriend's job. After worker protests, her hospital is now issuing more masks -- but they have to be reused. Surgeons, doctors, are reusing all protective items. So my goal, and yours too, should be NOT to end up in the hospital. Don't fall in your house; don't party at bars and get infected and infect others; stay home. If your symptoms are mild, stay home and don't overwhelm the system. There are no tests instantly on demand at this worst place in the country; they are *rationed*. They are rationed even for medical personnel. My son and his wife were helping me, but they can't now. They stopped being able to smell or taste food the last few days, which they found hugely weird, although they only feel a little tired. Unfortunately this weird loss of smell and taste is a classic and well documented feature of this virus -- Google it. They've watched as their local business and others have shuttered overnight, leaving open the question how any of them will buy food, even if rent can be postponed. The Costcos near them in NJ was empty last week. My church is overwhelmed with taking care of sick and elderly; my tenants' committee is overwhelmed. Thank God a college kid from a synagogue who started "Invisible Hands" was able send over somebody to first go to my doorman, then my mailbox, searching for a FEDEX of vital meds that never came; then wait in line at the pharmacy to finally get me 30 days. They won't issue 90 days which everyone thinks they will as they advertise it. Not without a doctor's permission. Good luck getting your doctor on the phone or through apps now. I am not scared. I am not panicked. I've been in quarantines before; I've been in disasters before, like Hurricane Sandy. It's bad, but FDR had it right when he said the only thing to fear is fear itself. I'm going to keep doing my RL jobs, which fortunately I still have; keep helping my family, and keep open my little SL business. What I do want to stress -- and nobody wants to hear it because while they can accept the dire situation of the virus, they don't want to hear that their salvation from that -- the Internet -- is going to slow down, get really slow or non-operative, and stop. So plan accordingly. Do not rely on Amazon or FEDEX for medicines, pet food, groceries. Start figuring out what real-life organizations, institutions, people, individuals can help with this -- and be one of those people yourself to help. That's how we will pull through. Linden Lab is in a shelter-in-place city. Ebbe didn't explain how he is dealing with that and whether his workers can come into the office or whether anyone will consider they are "media" or "education" and "mission critical" (likely not) and let them physically keep their doors open. Thank God the Lindens developed the MoonLab, and all of the wonderfulness of SL, but SL is tied to RL. Except people to disappear, as they did with the Japan earthquake, Sandy, etc. Only way worse. Except people not to be able to log on and do things for you that you take for granted. Try to be helpful instead of whining then.

Er, what you make of it is that statistics and reporting to the UN in a country like China controlled by the Communist Party are cooked.

Good thing the Lindens ignore the forums when they make marketing decisions.

I read the other thread, and read about Roblox, which I don't think you can compare to SL. The reason Roblox has a billion users is that it has a built-in "things to do". SL doesn't have that. Most people can't make their own fun, and it's not a slam on them, why should they have to? Most entertainment in life is made by companies, not by you. SL is free, too.

I got several notices today from Dinkie groups about various fun, games, prizes -- and they didn't even seem to involve chipmunk voices, although they might have. Again, this already exists; you're soaking in it; you create it yourself. WHY do you want the Lindens to make it for you??? As for all the comments about the Metaverse, you do have to go back 10 or even 15 years and read the literature on this that existed way before Fortnite, and even before Second Life, and isn't just about Snowcrash. It's helpful to read past literature, for example the book Exodus to the Virtual World by Edward Castronova published in 2008 (and his other books published around that time)- now that was 12 years ago. I remember hearing Ted speak at the conference at New York Law School which was also the venue for the first SL meet-up with Philip Rosedale, the creator, present and Cory Ondrejka and other famous pioneer Lindens and philosophers like Richard Bartle -- now we're talking 16 years ago, ancient history! His thesis was that people would become so addicted to virtual worlds and gaming in particular, that the National Guard would have to be sent in to haul them away from their computers and force them to work at jobs that maintain critical infrastructure like electrical power plants and food and deliveries and such. Imagine! He was the first person I heard talk about bitcoin before it was called that. He said that terms like "virtual economy" or "virtual content" would lose their descriptors in 10 years because all economy would be virtual, all content, etc. etc. I haven't seen anything from him in ages, and it's not fashionable, and now there are other people, at conferences not subsidized by game companies, that find that yes, violence in RL is linked to violent video games, something he denied and is still denied and furiously fought about, although there is more and more studies that support this. It's funny, he denies that reality, yet he could mount a thesis that people would get so busy playing Fortnite that they wouldn't keep the electricity on in their city. He and others never explained why gaming or virtuality never became a massive phenomenon -- yet social media did. I remember we went out to an outdoor cafe -- it was in September -- and we were sitting with Pathfinder Linden (John Lester) who had on this SL necklace which the Lindens sold then, like swag. And there were tourists from Florida or something, and Pathfinder, sounding like the member of some cult or secret society, told these tourists who asked about the hand-eye icon that few were in on this secret now, but soon the entire world would know about it and be in it! That was how these virtuality zealots talked about SL back in the day. Philip confidently said that all the office buildings in NYC would be empty, because there'd be no use for them, because everything would be virtualized and be on a 3D Internet, which would be based in SL and similar platforms. It was taken for granted that the 3D Internet would be here any day, and I first saw the "Internet of Things" proto-typed in SL by I believe Yoz Linden -- and again, this was 15 years ago. I could go on and on. There were these enormous conferences with thousands of people coming to buy into the virtual world craze of 2006-2007. One year it was even at the Jacob Javits center next to Toy Fair, the biggest industry expo. And now, Toys 'R Us is closed, Internet-tied toys didn't take off, and the entrepreneur who used to run those big virtual world conferences -- Chris Sherman -- morphed to augmented reality, and other kinds of things because it was a "virtual world winter" it was said. Google even ran a virtual world for awhile called "Lively" that died and went to the Google graveyard with other products much touted like Google Plus. I see some of these people I have kept up with as friends over the years sold off their virtual reality businesses and got into other things like SEO or streaming music or who knows what. Corey Linden works at Facebook as VP of engineering now, you know? A Naval officer who once worked at NSA, who was CTO at LL and left over a disagreement with Philip, evidently related to whether the entire thing should be open-sourced or just the viewer. There's a staggering amount of history. The people who have worked at SL are are responsible for its features come from some of the best companies, with the best skills, there are people from IBM or Microsoft or whatever. A former Linden created Fair Vote which is about lobbying ranked voting which is now popular and even implemented (not something I support). The point is, the Metaverse came and went, and left in its wake people who know make it easier for you to see just the cats you want to see on Facebook or Twitter, not other cats. It is now ramping up for another "Virtual World Spring" and round of wonderfulness, after the VR goggles thing tanked? Oh, I don't know. I don't think so? The coronavirus pandemic might make it seem as if now SL has found its time. The things that make people stay home or need to seek entertainment (there are more movie goers in a depression) or need remote meetings online may give it a bump, but the tether to real life is strong. If people lose jobs or have to tend the sick or be sick or lose property or homes, they are less available for online life, not more.

I suppose your animosity toward me preceded this discussion because of the way you have reacted to literally one line that suggested "Tinyland" is not a viable project for LL in a marketing sense -- and a line that came after agreeding with your point that "creator" is not just a literal maker or scripter but also a decorator. You could have said, "Thanks for buying my Dinkie wares, Prokofy, on the MP, and I'm glad you're interested in tinies". No, instead, a line that merely states an opinion based on fact leads to round after round and the really ineffective argument "you don't know me" -- ineffective because nobody knows anybody in SL, everyone has a fictitious avatar to some level or another, so it is what it is. I don't perceive Dinkies as "child avatars" and you don't, but it doesn't matter. It was in *the Dinkie discussion group itself* that I first heard complaints of Dinkies being banned "as child avatars". So others see tinies of any type as child avatars, and they aren't wrong to do so, quite frankly, so there's little you can do about it. Child avatars might have a better reception if they didn't try to push the envelop (remember how they landed at the opening of Zindra and demanded the right to be present on this *adult* content *devoted to public sex*? Not much more you need to cite than *that*, but scads of bad experience, with griefing also notable, leads to this attitude. Now to return to the topic of LL's marketing. Would LL make a stand-alone world, with its own accounts, log-ins, monetary system, engine, etc. etc. I think you don't to be a rocket scientist, after Sansar has just been announced on the block and the staff fired, to conclude, noooo, the Lindens are not going to be creating any stand-alone worlds which they would create to give you a controlled Dinkie/tiny/etc experience. Would LL make a separate *continent* like Nautilus or Bellissaria, devoted to tinies? Well, maybe, but I also think it's not likely. Remember Elderglen? I do, because I lived there for some time. I liked the content there, I liked the house styles, I played the game with the fairy jars, I made a wizard house open to the public with various magic things shown. There were elves and fairies, too of course there. But it was empty, because that's not what most people wanted. Most people are norms, and they don't want to RP anything except "human norm". Sure, fairies or wizards are different than Tinies. Still, it's an experience you can use as a yardstick to predict the likelihood of LL doing this. If anything, they are continuing to produce "norm" after "norm" stuff -- houseboats, Victorian homes, campers, and now log homes. I don't think hobbit caves or Dinkie miniature abodes are likely to come because it's too much a niche. Only the maker of the original Dinkie avatar knows how many she has sold -- it's got to be thousands and thousands, but not half a million. And why would you want the Lindens to take over this thriving, creative niche?! Here Etheria Parrot, the Dinkie creator has made a remarkable avatar that isn't too "cute" and that has "cat" but avoids some of the cliches. The eyes are very different, not just the cliche "cute" wide eyes of an animal cartoon or child. Those eyes create expressions which seem to range from "a little grumpy from being awoken too early from my nap" to "haunted at the things I saw in trench warfare at the Somme" -- but that's just it, it's a range, and like the expression-free dolls of the Montessori schools that are supposed to stimulate imagination rather than killing it (as Barbies are supposed to do), the Dinkie eyes enable people to have a wide range with it, and are very compelling. Only God can make a tree, and the Lindens make pretty good trees (some continue to hold up well 16 years later), but only a resident -- not a Linden -- can make a Dinkie, you know? Truly. The Dinkie thing has spawned ENORMOUS numbers of clothes, scenes, props -- the freebies made by Veloce are bar none, the best, most intricate and well-working interactive freebies of any kind from any group I've seen. WHY would you want the Lindens to co-opt this??? Tinyland exists already. There are entire communities and shopping centers just for tinies. It just boggles the mind while you would want the Lindens to capture this and manage it for you -- which inevitably would end up homogenizing it and flattening it and locking some out. Why would you, as a creator who makes and sells things for Dinkies, want the Lindens to take over this niche? Do you believe it would bring you more customers? The Lindens do what they want, of course, and who knows, Patch, who has Neko ears (elf ears? some kind of ears) may lean toward the Dinkie/tiny/woodland creatures for all we know. But I think it's unlikely, and not even advisable. If you want a Tinyland, buy 10 sims and run them, like Mieville does. it's a lot of work, it requires a lot of sacrifice, imagination, diplomacy and it's fragile as we have seen. One person dies or one person is sick -- it suffers. Even so, there is a group that rallies, it has a spirit, activities, content -- it's a model for such niche communities. (BTW there are a lot of tinies in Mieville it seems, which has a Steampunk theme). So before getting the Lindens to do X community, it would be good to do it yourself on 10 sims, with your friends who share your views. Lock out who you want; block who you want; do what you want. You don't need the Lindens for this. Should there be yet another option, where the Lindens helps such themed RP communities, or "communities of purpose" of any kind, with a more hands-off but helpful means, as they do with RL educators by giving them non-profit tax-free rates? (Because they have RL tax-free papers from authorities). Just as they give 10% extra land to use in a group as a bonus to land contributions to a group, shouldn't they do something extra like that to help RP survive? I don't know what such a thing would be -- making all texture uploads only 5L instead of 10? Adding more prims? If they did that, they would first get outrage from those who felt this was more favoritism, and they'd get deluged by groups who aren't really a dedicated theme but just want free stuff. And remember, this isn't about getting the Lindens to do more and pay more themselves. It's about them MARKETING and getting more users. So how does making the land you'd like to see do that? I might like them to make Buryat Mongolia, but I know that I -- and the only real Mongolian that I have found in SL -- are probably going to like it, plus the odd dragon or yurt camper. So I make it myself, you know? So what this comes back to is your notion that parents want an Animal Crossing kind of game that they play "after hours" when the kids are in bed. And this is based on what kind of data or even anecdotal impression? I don't think the demographics cross. There are those Moms who play WoW and swear like sailors and beat all the bosses, but they are a minority. I do see husbands and wives plus the occasional child playing Free Sims Online -- the Sims Online always had that interesting phenomenon of actual families in RL, who came from playing the offline game to playing online. The top traffic FSO houses are often actual Mom & Pop shops who actual find the mindless repetitiveness of the Sims to be soothing. I don't think there's a basis to market to "families" or "mom and dad after hours but still for kids" with SL.

Norman Rockwell made his painting in November 1942, based on FDR's 1941 speech on the "Four Freedoms" (it's "Freedom from Want"). It was published in 1943. I think it's more likely that this dumpling mix, which look like it came from the 1960s, judging from the wide collar, tie, and haircut and photo qualities, was consciously copying Rockwell's painting because the company would know it would find resonance with people who knew Rockwell's iconic painting. Unless you can put an earlier date than 1942 on this photo, but it doesn't seem so.

This has been an interesting thread, and it proves several things: o the idea of what is NFSW is subjective, especially for @Beth Macbain o depending on your Twitter settings, location, and past search history, you see different things. Even so, most people will find a lot of NFSW furries on that search. Even a furry who describes himself as going through three phases of fandom says there are lots of NSFW furries. So I think this is the usual story of either denial, or desire to be contrary to anything I say just because I say it It has been pointed out that there's a lot of porn on Twitter. Yuck, that's for sure. And I don't wish to view it and don't click on it, so it's not showing up on a search of "second life" because I view porn. If anything I am harassed by Russian trolls using porn as a means of shocking and annoying, and block such accounts. I have "show safe content" checked ON -- which I hadn't realized because I never bother with net-nannying settings -- and I would need to leave it on my RL account because I have to tweet for some of my jobs. And because all kinds of free speech, LGBT, torture, human rights, war etc content can be declared as "unsafe" or "sensitive", I would need to keep it checked. I *un*checked in on my @prokofy account and that cleaned up the furry related stream in search somewhat, so that's good to know. But it isn't even just "NSFW" and graphic furry sex, it's just furries period be associated with SL. And as much as you want to yammer on about how "this is the Internet and get over it," it need not be that way when you simply post other content, and not in the contrarian way Beth suggests, merely to add graphic human sex, but other non-sexualized topics so that SL is presented more diversely. There really isn't a way to do this in some widespread way and the Lindens aren't going to put to work 100 interns doing this because Twitter might then ban them as having deliberate, targeted Russian troll like behaviour. I could note I did this search on my RL account which has "Moscow" set for its location so that I can see the hashtags popular for that location. I *think* that means that I also have to have censored what Twitter decides it will censor because the Russian government asked it to, merely to keep its service from totally being blocked. And that's annoying but I have another account set to "New York" so it's all good. But that Moscow-centric account is what produced the furry deluge -- there's a lot of Russian furries, did you know? And graphic ones at that. There isn't any "skewing" of my narrative here @Storm Clarence I've REPORTED ON what I found on a Twitter search. That's what you do in a normal democratic free society. It has all the usual parameters we all know from the way social media companies skew your search. I've now tried this on three different accounts after reading about the "safe settings" issue and the "location" issue and while some of the most graphic stuff doesn't show, it's still mainly furries associated with Second Life, the search term. It's not like YOUR search of "second life" on Twitter is going to produce fairies and unicorns and rainbows and no furries, so let's not be children here. The purpose of discussions is to add facts and information and useful opinions, and this thread has done that by pointing out the issue of settings, history, location. Chaser has reported with a useful post based on real experience, "So in summary, I don't feel it is much of a problem as most people looking for info about Second Life as a business platform will have nsfw enabled on twitter, and if they did, they probably wouldn't be the type to judge considering theres some pretty weird stuff on twitter." And I certainly take that point. But this topic veered off into the "UNSAFE" furries not filtered out. And ultimately, there's a different, larger issue that it's furries IN GENERAL in the search, and for the average prejudiced person deliberating about SL, their association with furries will be a) sex b) griefing/harassment. Which is unfortunately because it's not the majority of furry presentation in reality, or the majority of SL as a whole, either.

I don't know which sect you are referring to, but most Christian churches believe that Jesus redeemed the world and time, not that He merely made time stand still by dying. He descended down into hell but arose again on the third day. It seems to me you're leaving out the central tenet of the Christian faith -- Christ doesn't condemn us to time but in fact rescues us from time by offering us eternal life. We move through time and according to this belief we reach eternity, which is not the deadness of time or death but infinity. The idea of the "time standing still" is similar to some pagan or Eastern religions with a notion of eternal recurrence, or the failure to advance out of time. The Russian mystic Pytor Ouspensky, a student of Gurdjieff's, wrote a novel called "The Strange Life of Ivan Asokin" in which a man gets to repeat his life, but each time he comes to an incident where he could make a choice and change his life, he finds he can't, and does the same thing again because of his unchanged nature, til the end where he gets the bullet -- and the whole thing starts over again. This story line was taken for the popular movie "Groundhog Day" and quite deliberately, as you can read in various places. Bill Murray himself was a student of Gurdjieff. Long story short, I don't think that real life or Second Life are simulations and that God toys with us; I think we are created with free will. I don't know about 1970, but I have a folder in my inventory that says "1969" after the Lindens took my account and overhauled it because it was so buggy from so much inventory, and had it machine-separated into folders. "1969" is what happens on a computer system when the date isn't known. Not sure why it didn't go to 2004 and created that folder, but it did. I saw that in my hospital file which was completely lost as well during an overhaul of their system. It would put in putative AIDS tests for 1969, which would not be possible as AIDS hadn't been discovered then. If you stare into the abyss too long you see...an abyss. There is lots more to life so look up.

That's a reasonable prognosis. I do see some indications, however, that people who fled SL might be back, especially universities and some businesses. Certainly every company from Subway to Via to Google is flooding my email box now telling me what good deeds they are doing now with this virus epidemic. So LL will be no different, and there are ways they can do this tastefully and with sensitivity.

Here are some OTHER Normal Rockwell paintings that actually depict Second Life scenes more than those above -- he was more complex than some people imagine. Perhaps they better depict the insularity, prejudices, hatreds, browbeating, and horror-story recounting that is particularly concentrated on the forums. Like cynical and suspicious attitudes towards religious believers -- who still make up a large percent of the population. Like attitudes towards minorities and those who are different. Like attitudes towards those with terrible experiences. Like attitudes towards those who refuse to go around with the received wisdom of the "crowd".

Do a search on Twitter with the term "Second Life". If this link doesn't work just go to twitter.com and type the term in yourself. And here's what you will find: Furries, furries, and MORE furries. And in fact some of the most graphic and grotesque furries you have ever seen, of the kind you actually never see out and about in Second Life. There are even clips of furries having graphic sex. Loads of them. Scads, droves. Now, I don't have anything against furries as such -- I have long had a dragon and some other animal avatars and now have several Dinkies. My tenants are furries. Furries are thought to be the soul of SL in some ways, although for me, elves and fairies are more the soul, but whatever, it's different for everyone. But this is a particular kind of very exhibitionist furry -- it's often the males who have those female furry avatars with the ENORMOUS boobs -- or other bits. And that is the face of Second Life and draws ridicule. Nothing can or should be done about it -- except to post other kinds of things -- of course first overcoming the hurdle you inevitably must overcome as your friends and family say, discovering your post about Second Life on your RL social media counts, "Isn't that the furry sex place?" No, it's not just one account with a lot of posts. It's numerous accounts. I have an SL Twitter account that I go on every few days @Prokofy Neva -- I was an early adapter of Twitter on this account, and I actually never see those furry pics and graphic clips go by when I'm casually reading through Twitter. I had to make a point of looking for them (Twitter like other social media funnels what you see to your friends or things you've liked, so I tend to see lots of exploration pictures and videos and stories of new sites, not graphic furries. But if you look on Twitter now, what's interesting is that there's also now a smattering of posts from universities, saying they are dusting off their old SL campuses due to the need for remote learning now; one says "People laughed when we spent six figures building an SL campus but who's laughing now?" A number of universities and businesses are now including SL in lists of recommended sites where to have meetings, and posting on Twitter. And facing skepticism and ridicule. So what do you figure the turn-off is? What is SL ALREADY associated with? Graphic furries. Teachers fear these graphic, hyper-sexualized furries distracting their students and businesses fear it will harm their brand. Of course those of us actually *in* SL know that this is a caricature, an exaggeration, "not what it's really like". And there is no way you could stop such posts nor would you want to. People should be free to do what they want on social media. But here the Lindens are spending time and money on ad campaigns; here everyone is arguing about how they should be done, but for free, another massive, home-made ad campaign is going on that drives away many customers, even if it might attract a niche, and that is "Furries of Twitter". Sure, come on and defend the furry life and the graphic furry sex life, that's fine, I'm all for that. But surely you can see the problem when it becomes *the only way SL is envisioned*. And that's unfair, because it's far more diverse than that. I see hundreds of sims, I go to all kinds of events, including things like "We ❤️ RP" where you'd expect to see strange furry get-ups -- but I'm telling you, I have never seen a more graphic and off-putting parade as I have seen just now on Twitter, as I look at it through the eyes of people potentially looking over SL as a possible venue to have virtual meetings. So this is why I mention again that ad campaigns have to stress that people can control their environment -- the way they look, who they let into their space, how their space is used. Controlling the environment. This is the secret sauce of SL that Philip mentioned early on. And to be sure, griefers override things like island ban efforts. But truly, there is a great deal you can do to control your experience, and griefing is far from the bane sometimes imagined -- and I speak as someone targeted specifically for harassment for what I do in SL and RL with some of the most persistent and grotesque griefing out there. What can be done about this? Nothing directly -- you can only put out MORE stuff so that the mix is more diverse.

Here's some polls I have which are mainly answered by newbies because they are at infohubs. Not all of them, but many of them. It only allows one vote per avatar, but of course with the existence of alts and even what you might call "Family Voting," the results are not pristine. Even so, it's more than what most people collect: Some of my polls don't have very many answers -- but what are polls anyway? Devices to measure the opinion of everyone who likes to answer a survey -- not an ACTUAL measure of opinion LOL. Here it is: Baileya: 3950 Ballots (This has run probably 10 years?) How Can Newbie Experience Be Improved? Simplify Orientation Island 452 Have a Buddy System 581 Provide Jobs to Newbies 1797 Have Paid Help-Desk 24/7 258 Suggest Places to Visit 862 So the "Jobs" have it and interestingly, long before there was a Destination recommendation section, this was getting higher votes and still has the second most high. In Ross: Do you like Second Life 185 votes since 6/27/2017 I just got here 54 votes 29% Not it's too hard 9 votes 5% Not it's boring 7 votes 4% I used to buy my friends are gone 27 votes 15% Yes it's ok but needs improvement 24 votes 13# Yes I love it! 64 votes 35% I hope to find a voter than lets you have more than one answer (not more than one avatar vote) and I will ask about clothing and the library.

Thankees!

Um, it's not that I am "missing the point" -- it's that I have a different opinion than you do based on more experience. Try to hear it. We were talking overall about retention in general originally, so describing why people leave who have been here awhile is certain valid. And "relationship gone wrong" can be something that happens within 48 hours, when, oh, a newbie discovers their girlfriend is actually a man in RL. That sort of thing. "Something to do" in SL is not at all only RP communities; that's not even the majority. "Something to do" can be live music, a NASA exhibit, exploring, etc. Most people are norms and find RP too involved -- not expensive, but too involved. But some people love it and have worked up extensive and deep legends and content and enjoy it and have many deep, rewarding friendships and lovers from it. It's not for the newbie necessarily -- but the reason why Gor can snare so many newbies is that they have a plan to get people and induct them, and the average club doesn't even have a tenth as much. None of them hang out a sign, "Welcome newbies! Free shirt" -- for example. Um, "which is it"? The point is there is a RANGE. You can spend as little as $1250 on a mesh body, and by a good name brand, or go up higher, and spend $5000 or more. I don't need to "make up my mind" about a DIVERSE market in which many people, newbies included, find their way. I suspect your rage about the lack of library content is probably not curable, but it's a good thing most people don't suffer from that rage. Have you ever lived in a foreign country? I've lived in quite a few. Starting with Canada, "Friendly, Foreign, and Near," where I went to university, and nearly died in the socialized health care system. And yes, you pay for it, and no, not only in taxes, but there can be fees involved all through it. I suppose the biggest fee is when you take that bus to Maine to get your medical care down there, and not for cheap, because there isn't a line (or wasn't, before the virus). Newbies are happy to spend money. It never pays to infantalize and dumb down and poor down newbies as if they are some strange breed of being who has never been to Biloxi to see the races. Or course they have. Even I am amazed when people two weeks old come and spend the equivalent of $10 US for a month of my rentals, but they do. There is a certain demographic of newbie that is as you describe, but SL would be a dust bowl if that were the norm. You also seem short on solutions. You want the Lindens to solicit and pay for people to put content in the library. Why? That's what the...er...free market does, and probably at a lower cost, as those content makers the Lindens hire have to be paid more than "little dressmakers" in SL. You seem to find it hard to hold complexities in your head. Yes, jobs is the one thing people wish there were -- so they could make back their cost. But yes, they also spend money. Content makers make $450 million US per year from SL. That's quite a phenomenon that no other social media or game in the world can boast of. Let me suggest that the welcome areas that I keep filled with content and help areas are mainly filled with newbies -- because I talk to them and see their ages. And they are mainly the ones filling out the polls. Which is why the question "Do you buy gatchas" can even have the answer "What is a gatcha". Sure, some people return for years to the place they first landed. But it doesn't matter. You don't have data -- period. I have some data but with flawed conditions (alts, not-newbies). The real people with the data who know why 9 out of 10 people don't stick aren't telling us. But even their A/B tests are flawed in that they skew to their own ideologies as nerds and "professional marketers". So if somebody bails after finding nothing but a building tutorial and a game involving driving around a vehicle and crushing rats (the newbie landing experience organized by the Lindens for a time), they might not understand that their very set-up is the problem. This is why the welcome areas should have billboards with ads that take people to clubs, events, rentals. Of course those with either an aversion to capitalism or a loathing of what they view as low culture -- or both -- will not see this. I have yet to hear any convincing arguments or facts so I'll see myself out, you can have the last word.

Yeah, me, too. And right off the bat I will note that you are assuming that if someone choses to be a tiny or a Dinkie, they do not want any adult content. I'm someone who is happy not to have any adult content and block it on searches where it is particularly graphic and ugly, even. But the reality is, I know for a fact that people who have Dinkie avatars, and get into the Dinkie events and merchandise, also have adult lives with other costumes or alts. It's rare that people are only one thing in SL. So to set up a separate world on separate servers where you can't fluidly go back and forth among different identities seems like a recipe for failure to me. Of course, anyone can go on Open Sim and create Tinyville if they like. That they don't is about lack of a market and return of costs and lack of activity, really. There doesn't seem to be an overlap between the child avatars some of who verge on criminal activity (which is why I ban them) and Dinkies, although some sims ban Dinkies as if they were child avatars, and Dinkies get angry calling them prejudiced. If you have had as much experience as I have had in 16 years with child avatars -- who almost always cause trouble of one form or another -- as distinct from tinies/petites/Dinkies, you will get it. But the point is, if you feel that you have to be in a world sequested from adult activity to have Dinkiedom, that's fine, create it and see who shows up. I think it will be a small crowd as the fluidity and freedom of SL regarding identities and being able to change them is a big attraction of SL. And those who ban all small creatures out of bad experience with child avatars, cutting too wide a swathe -- well, they have good reason, and of course in your country, you won't ban anyone over their belief system, right? I'd also have to question the idea of what "family platform" is, as if there is a market for entire families playing online together in one game. I don't think that's the case. The demographics stay in separate games. I remember when my children were growing up, my rule was simply that they had to play their games and do online socializing on the one computer we had, and then two, in the living room, so that I could watch what they were doing, so that they didn't get into trouble and I more or less knew what was going on. That isn't foolproof, as they have friends' houses they go to and can be exposed to adult and violent content. But you can mitigate it by taking an interest in watching what the kids are watching. That doesn't mean we would sit and play Animal Crossing together, however. But...As you seem to have an axe to grind here I will leave you to your chopping! Wash your hands!

A technique of arguing that says "you haven't understood me" or "you have no reading comprehension" when what you mean to say is "you keep disagreeing with me" -- because you have presented no compelling facts but only impressions and anecdotes -- is never persuasive. I had an even longer answer to you but I lost it and now I think it's not worth trying to oppose each point. The fact is, you don't have the information. You have anecdotal stories gained from this or that contact or blog, but you don't have a definitive exit poll of why people leave. Your theory that they leave over the cost of clothing isn't born out by the sheer fact of the enormous expenditures that people DO make for these things. Sale clothing can be just as fancy as expensive clothing -- it's by the same makers. A mesh body is US $4.50 to start; even a very fancy get-up isn't going to be more than the $15 or $20 that people spend without a thought on WoW. And yes, it's worth comparing, even if it's a different demographic (although it does overlap) simply because it shows people will spend online for virtuality if they find it compelling, and it's more about "things to do" and friends than "look". Not having enough to do or being able to find the things to do is WAY more important than the alleged "inability" to find clothes for the library avatars -- which people don't use for long anyway. And again, your sense of this is anecdotal. I have a lot of years of experience and lots of customers and I simply think this is a greater stock of information than you have. And the reason people leave -- or don't stay -- is most often due to relationships gone wrong, and over not finding friends and things to do, not clothing. I have several newbie helper tutorial and freebie places, I have spent many hours helping new people and also returnees who give up, and come back -- then leave again -- and the lack of things to do -- the demand to create your own fun and interest which is only suitable for some kinds of people -- is the biggest problem. Not "how I look". You keep harping on how hard it is to find clothes for the starter avatars. Huh? Who keeps them after a week or two? Who is even trying to do this? In a world where for $4.50 you can by a mesh body, and the latest fashion for again, the price of a latte, and less than not just WoW, but most things online (Hulu, or paid Flickr). I refused to be shamed and browbeaten because I live in the US -- where much of the early Internet was made and big companies like Google and where SL was created. And that's because it's not the point -- there are plenty of Europeans, Australians, Asians, Russians -- everybody. And they spend money such as they have. You don't like the extra $6 of your currency you have to pay to get the Lindens -- but then you have socialized medicine and low-cost transport in your country, too. So this isn't really a discussion about SL, is it? It's a discussion about socialism versus capitalism and the countries associated with those systems. And that's a debate that I seldom find useful to have on the forums with anonymous people who haven't had the experience I have in fact living and working in foreign countries, learning foreign languages, dealing a lot with the UN, etc. so I simply don't accept this browbeating. Every other country has a higher cost of living? Yet you have free health care, and have you looked at both the huge cost of health care in the US AND the lack of subsidy for it? And yet poor, sick people like me get on Medicaid if we have low incomes or our medicines are expensive enough. So it isn't the horror Europeans imagine. And even Sweden isn't really Sweden as imagined, you know? So that's why this discussion is pretty pointless. You have a set of beliefs and prejudices that are more related to VAT and your high taxes than anything else, not the real cost of a mesh head outside the library. And to that I can only say, tax less, and live like we do? Ok, I rest my case. No newbie has to spend US $50 on a mesh body; $5000 Lindens is $18.75 in any event. Don't like these costs? You do not require them to be part of the world. Go and be a Dinkie for a mere $450 Lindens, if it comes to that, and pick up all the wonderful freebies. Call me when you have a valid sociological survey with a 2,000 or higher level of respondents with geographical diversity and ask them about clothing costs and why people leave SL, and I might believe you. BTW I run at least polls with avatars, which prevent double voting by the same avatar but in a world of alts can't really be valid. But since most people aren't going to bother to go log on alts to answer some poll, they are fairly interest. Over the years I've asked what is most needed for newbies. And what is needed is not tutorials on building, but JOBS. People like to earn their own money. Jobs is the number one answer. Friends is second. Ask people about what they think of the pods on the Linden highways. On the forums, a minority loves and supports them. On surveys inworld, not so much. Many reply that they think they should be removed and declared spam, or at least put in some limited areas -- and so on. So many things are actually not what you think, and what you see on the forums.

I'll leave it to you to discover what it missing from your statements about your life, but which was contained in my description of the demographics of SL. They are what they are, and are not disputed by most people who have a lot of customer contact. If someone breaks out in great umbrage about these truths, it may be because the description applies to them, and they think it is pejorative. There will be more and more people who are sick or on fixed income or unable to get work due to the coronavirus, and there's no point in being in denial about it. I've been in SL for 16 years now, and all that time I had a family, children to take care of, older relatives, full-time jobs and even additional part-time jobs and church and everything else. But I still spent significant time in SL, and I'm likely to spend even more as I get older and am forced to stay home due to my immune disease. I've made a lot of time to study tech, blog about it, go to various tech meet-ups, go on Twitter, Facebook less, and Linked-in least of all. Instagram is that bridge too far that depends on photographs. Maybe because I signed up to follow a lot of Russian news people and great photographers like Max Avdeyev and I see how my kids use it and so on, I think it's just not for me as I don't want to make and post photos to the scrutiny there. On the other hand, if I go for a walkabout, I post them to Twitter where people like them and don't say much. Now that I'm near my Flickr limit and also we don't have the automatic poster, I probably will cease posting there. Which brings me back on topic: did the Lindens dump the social media function too hastily, given their marketing plans? You need social media for marketing. It doesn't have to be tied to a real identity. There's no question that when you can't easily snap a screenshot and title and post it right in the viewer, you do far less of this. Firestorm manages to keep this going; the Lindens understandably got frustrated with Twitter's constant changes as well as the others, but maybe they need to reconsider.

FairreLilette, I understand it's just a suggestion, but it's a suggestion I also make a suggestion about -- that it is not necessary. Yes, a Dinkie or any kind of creature should be whatever they like. But you know and I know that that's not how it works in reality. Dinkies, like other small creatures, have a certain set and widespread culture that many adhere to. Most want them to be cute; most want to talk the baby talk and refer to themselves in the third person at times as it is a role play at heart. And that's fine, but I just find it off-putting and say so. And sure, people can do what they like except there are always culture police, especially in SL. When I announced I was decorating a tiny house with Dinkie things in the RFL Home & Garden Expo, I had the experience of tenants coming and even seeing one who I didn't know was a Dinkie sitting on the porch and enjoying it -- that was very gratifying. I had one person come and offer to take me around to the stores and show me the communities and the freebie place which was amazing and was very helpful. But I also had one forums reg who snipes at me here swoop in and say belligerently, "Now that you're a Dinkie, are you not going to be mean any more?" As if his notion of behavior and level of criticism tolerated should define what is "nice" and should prevail in Dinkieland. His idea of "mean" was that I...criticized GTFO -- and rightly so, and in fact-based manner. and with ample evidence. In fact since then, I've only caught GTFO *again* buying land next to me and putting in ad farms at a huge price -- which is a despicable practice. I abuse reported it and also urged that this seller do the right thing and put them at a normal price so that people who actually live on that sim can buy it. He did, and I bought it. And that's because I've been able to make a public issue of it. Given that the Lindens will never do anything about it, we have to use vigorous publicity and commentary to address the ills of our society. That is normal in a liberal democratic society. Your or this forums reg would do no less about Trump. But there is this idea that the Lindens, the Moles, top designers, the FIC, various big companies -- the status quo -- are somehow off limits and beyond criticism and should in fact be adulated. Naturally I don't believe that. I have also discovered a tiny designer who has blocked me from purchases. And that is common in our vicious, low-information/high-prejudice society. I have a number of merchants who do that to me or ban me from their stores not because I'm a griefer or violate copyright, which would be valid reasons, but because they don't like my blog or my forums comments -- which I find really small-minded. Of course, the tiny-minded tiny community rulers -- and it is far from all of them from what I can tell, most are decent -- can enforce their idea of a community and a culture by using such boycotts. And I can and will call them out for this. Of course the forums rules prevent you from naming names, which is actually why it is hard to deter crime and corruption in SL, but that's a long story.

The avatars in the library come dressed. And I see plenty of those avatars in those newbie clothes at events looking for new clothes. Again, buying 1000 Lindens is US $3.75. That's less than a Starbucks latte. World of Warcraft is $15.99, and plenty of people shell that out without the qualms you describe. Fortnite costs . SL is now $11.99 at the per-month cost. So surely someone can spend that same $15.99 to get the premium, its $300, and then have some left over to buy 1000 or 2000 Lindens. Fortnite is "free," but you can buy game currency packs for $10.00 and other customization. Good Lord I see something on e-bay called the "Deep Freeze" in Fortnite selling for $3000. I don't think it's so much clothing that is at issue. It's "things to do" and how to arrive at your interests, and how to meet people. The circles are very insular in SL. It's true that money is hard to earn because you can't camp and mine gold the way you can in games. There are a few places like that in SL (still) but have you ever tried them? They are ridiculously hard and time-consuming and beg the question of why you just don't spend the $10.75 on a three-hour wait market buy (which you can do right now) to get 2500 Lindens. That's not enough to get a mesh body, but it's enough to get some clothes and a start.