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Theresa Tennyson

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Everything posted by Theresa Tennyson

  1. Magnanimousity wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: The default system avatar can be made into a child's body. By your logic, doesn't that mean that there's an issue when clearly sexually inclined content is made for the default avatar? No, because the system body isn't a child by default. How is the SMB body a child "by default"? The body needs to be worn over a shape to be usable and it will take the height of whatever shape you're wearing. If your shape is 8 feet tall, guess what? You've got a very slender 8 foot tall avatar. The SMB mesh body with those outfits could certainly be used for prohibited behavior. The same body and outfits with different settings can be used for non-prohibited behavior. You can say exactly the same thing about the system avatar.
  2. Magnanimousity wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: Magnanimousity wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: Magnanimousity wrote: Hi, I'm the original poster of that question. I'd like to clarify that the literal full name of that avatar is "#SMB Mesh Body for Kids." Even if twinks and fem boys use it, that doesn't make it not a child avatar because that's it's intended use. I'm 50 years old. I just read a "children's book." Does that make me a child? That's false equivalence. You're not doing anything to come off as a child, people using a mesh body clearly labeled as being a child are doing something to come off as being a child. It's a mesh body. Full stop. And it's one of the very few available that is useful for a slender person while also having a variety of clothing for it, which means it's useful for people who want that sort of body even if it was made for being a "child" and they aren't portraying a "child." The issue here is that the SMB body is by default a child avatar. There is nothing spcifying that the clothing I was using as an example were made explicitly for twinks/femboys, which is my issue here. I'm not arguing that people can't use it as a twink/femboy body with the shape altered, the issue comes in when there's clearly sexually inclined content made for it, because it's a child avatar by default. The default system avatar can be made into a child's body. By your logic, doesn't that mean that there's an issue when clearly sexually inclined content is made for the default avatar?
  3. Magnanimousity wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: Magnanimousity wrote: Hi, I'm the original poster of that question. I'd like to clarify that the literal full name of that avatar is "#SMB Mesh Body for Kids." Even if twinks and fem boys use it, that doesn't make it not a child avatar because that's it's intended use. I'm 50 years old. I just read a "children's book." Does that make me a child? That's false equivalence. You're not doing anything to come off as a child, people using a mesh body clearly labeled as being a child are doing something to come off as being a child. It's a mesh body. Full stop. And it's one of the very few available that is useful for a slender person while also having a variety of clothing for it, which means it's useful for people who want that sort of body even if it was made for being a "child" and they aren't portraying a "child."
  4. Magnanimousity wrote: Hi, I'm the original poster of that question. I'd like to clarify that the literal full name of that avatar is "#SMB Mesh Body for Kids." Even if twinks and fem boys use it, that doesn't make it not a child avatar because that's it's intended use. I'm 50 years old. I just read a "children's book." Does that make me a child?
  5. ChinRey wrote: Chic Aeon wrote: But along the way it seems like that idea has expanded as there have been mentions lately of "regular folks' (my quotes) being able to "create their own world" (pretty close to the video text as I remember LOL) by purchasing items and designing their own environment. So NOT just a world for content creators. I can guarantee that doesn't work out well *wink*. Yes but a sim (or whatever the enclosed environments in Sansar are to be called) wil still have to be designed as a whole, not assembled from fragments. And that means there have to be strict limits to what resources/items each user of the environment can add to it. This is the one factor so few people in Sl seem to to be able and willing to comprehend: the sheer amount of data required for a SL style virtual environment. Let me try to illustrate this: Imagine a Linden Homes sim filled up with happy residents. 48 houses, each filled up with ... 20 pieces of furniture, each piece of funriture has two 1024x1024 res textures - and then of course a bunch of scripts and animations and such. That's several thousand assets and well over a gigabyte of raw data for the furniture only! Now, move this to a place where the hosues themselves and the surroundings around them are just as varied an un-optimized as the furnishing, put an avatar in each house, each avatar three time the complexity of the house it's in, expand the whole scene to 256 times the size... We're actually dangerously close to talking about millions of assets and terabytes of raw data here. It all have to be retrieved, transferred and processed one way or another. And of course, the data has to be reprocessed somewhere between two and four times as often as it is in SL today. I'm sure there is room for a lot of improvements to the three C's of auto-optimization (Culling, Caching and Compression) compared to how they're handled in SL. But a lot of improvements is not enough here. We'll need an earth shattering, revolutionary breakthrough in optimization technology and that's not going to happen this year. Realistically, the only way to make a Sansar experience performance as intended is to make it the way modern high performance games are made: you start with a very strict resource budget, you sue instancing for all its worth and anything that won't fit the resource budget you jsut find a way to do without. In such an environment there is very little room for content chosen and added by each individual user. Another factor that few in SL seem to be willing and able to comprehend is that the way Second Life is set up is not the only way to set up a SL style virtual environment. I came to SL from the Sims series and still play it occasionally. The current version of The Sims is The Sims 4. In it, your "family" lives in a "world" that has layers like an onion. The first "layer" is their immediate home lot. This can be fully customized and filled with various interactive furniture, etc, including custom content by others. The next "layer" is the "neighborhood" around their lot. A Sim can walk around this neighborhood and interact with objects but can't change them. They can also see and walk around replicas of their neighbors' houses, which look identical to the customizable houses on the neigbors' lots. However, they can't see inside the house replicas and all the interior fittings aren't actually there. You can go into a neighbor's house, but you need to go through a loading screen and enter a separate simulation in order to do so. The final "layer" is a 3D environment outside the neigborhood that can be seen but neither changed nor walked through and interacted with. Each house in the neigborhood is a different simulation that needs to be loaded separately, but they all look like they're part of the same place. Now understand this - according to very plausible rumors, The Sims 4 was originally intended to be an online environment. Your "neigbors" would have been controlled by different people in different places. They would have built their houses themselves and only the "impostor" replica versions would need to be sent to their neigbors. It was changed to a standalone game after the online-only SimCity reboot turned out to be a mess, and to accomodate the community of Simmers who tend to run to the control freak end of the spectrum. Using similar technology, there's no reason your 48-house Linden Home region can't be actually 48 separate simulations that all look identical except for the houses themselves, and each one would only require a fraction of the resources of a whole SL style region. The Sims 4 runs well on my 2011 vintage laptop that barely breaks double digit framerates on low settings in a small skybox when I use it as my portable Second Life machine.
  6. BethanyNyoki wrote: I am guessing some update came out that ruined this or not. But i have multiple Scene Rezzers and none of them are functioning fully anymore. I rezzer out a Faux rezzer and find that when i rez the structure, it doesn't fully finish the rezzing process. Things will be missing. My parcel has more than enough prims, as i have tested it with something that is even lower in objects. I have tested on my friend's region as well, ending with the same problem. I am wondering if im the only one having this problem. It's happening with Rez Faux, Sai Scene, and Multi Scene. These are not 1 prim rezzers either. Did LL release some update that broke these? An update on the regions used for testing new server deployments (channels "Magnum", "LeTigre" and "BlueSteel") is causing problems like that. The bug report is here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-37573 To find out if this is your problem, go to "Help - About Second Life" and look towards the bottom of the first full paragraph for the words "Magnum", "LeTigre" or "BlueSteel."
  7. Phil Deakins wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: Unlike watching an on-line movie, which can be helped by a faster connection speed, a 3D environment like Second Life is completely rendered on the end-user's machine and the internet connection only delivers the raw materials that the end-user's video card and CPU use to render the scene. Having the raw material arrive faster does nothing to speed the internal process of rendering each frame, which is what framerate measures. What you said initially was the exact equivalent of your hearing someone say that it took them three hours and a bruised thumb to build their IKEA dresser and telling them, "Well, you should have the kit sent by rush shipping." Fair enough. I'm not yet convinced that bandwidth can't be partially responsible though. Some people have very low bandwidths, so could it be that a bandwidth of, say, 4mbs still won't have any effect on the SL framerate? My download speed is less than 6mbs (which is an improvement; it used to be around 3mbs) and I can get good framerates even with shadows on, assuming my settings are set appropriately for my video card and surroundings. Meanwhile, the poster you replied to said they had 100mbs speed. Now let us analyze your post in question. First, here's what you were replying to: It's a bit of a mystery why the performance of a 12 year old game is crappier than a modern AAA that has so much more complexity, shadows etc. Please enlighten us all. Pretend Im Joannie new girl, I want to come to SL..what are the BEST specs I can do for my machine? Will I get an average fps higher than 24fps with my 100mb download speed? Now here's your reply, in toto: To be honest, you sound exactly like Joannie Newgirl, because you don't understand what SL is and why it's different from the others. Also you need faster broadband if you're only getting 24fps. Let's take this sentence by sentence: 1) "To be honest, you sound exactly like Joannie Newgirl, because you don't understand what SL is and why it's different from the others." Obviously the poster didn't understand or they wouldn't have said that it was a mystery and ask for enlightenment. Your reply did absolutely nothing to explain; basically, all you did was say, "Well, you don't know. Nyeah." In the absence of any sort of explanation this a pretty textbook example of disparagement. 2) Also you need faster broadband if you're only getting 24fps. The poster already said they had broadband that is quite fast; even if broadband speed had a significant effect on Second Life framerates (which it doesn't, as a number of people have pointed out) it would appear that this was not their problem. Your statement simply can't be supported by facts. I'm not going to say anything about you personally right now though. You've said pretty much everything an observer needs to make a conclusion already.
  8. Rayanna Shelman wrote: I have the MaItreya Lara Body and am now interested in purchasing a mesh head. I got different demos to try but am still unsure which one or even if mesh heads are really for me. Catwa seems very popular but was not too happy with the demo. One I quite liked was the LAQ mesh head, it seemed quite easy to use and looked more "natural" than some of the others. I think the mesh heads are quite a new venture for LAQ (love their skins) and wondered if anyone has bought one of these or tried the demos and if so would be very interested to hear your comments. Would also be interested to hear if you love your mesh head and would never go back to the "classic" head or if you hate it and wish you had never bought it. Thank you There are developments in the works (i.e. the ability to use much more versatile animations and the ability to change a mesh head's look through sliders) that will be released fairly soon and will completely change the mesh head market. I'd advise not buying a mesh head right now unless you absolutely love it.
  9. Phil Deakins wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: Whirly Fizzle wrote: Good grief you two, get a room already lol. My popcorn stash is reaching critical level! Lol. Aaw Whirly. I'm enjoying myself. I've got him over a barrel that he can't get off. He tries with lie/insult after lie/insult, but it won't alter the fact that I've asked him a question that he can't answer without admitting to being wrong - the wrongness was the start of this 'difference' - and I have to press it, no matter how much he squirms. It's not like we're calling each other nasty names, or anything like that. He's played his cards and he has a losing hand. I'm merely waiting for him to concede, or slink off. Speaking of asking questions that can't be answered without admitting one is wrong - how will faster bandwidth improve framerates? As far as I know, it can, but I don't insist on it. Note: Unlike someone, else who shall be nameless, I don't mind being shown to be wrong, and I admit and accept it when it happens. The most recent time it happened was just 2 or 3 days ago. I was as blatantly wrong about something as Darrius is in this case. Unlike watching an on-line movie, which can be helped by a faster connection speed, a 3D environment like Second Life is completely rendered on the end-user's machine and the internet connection only delivers the raw materials that the end-user's video card and CPU use to render the scene. Having the raw material arrive faster does nothing to speed the internal process of rendering each frame, which is what framerate measures. What you said initially was the exact equivalent of your hearing someone say that it took them three hours and a bruised thumb to build their IKEA dresser and telling them, "Well, you should have the kit sent by rush shipping." I presume Darrius took your initial reply as meaning, "Improving framerate in Second Life is in your hands," and he then ignored your inappropriate suggestion and instead referred to the only thing that the end user could do to improve framerate, which would involve buying better video hardware on their end.
  10. Syo Emerald wrote: I just tried to set up some items up on the MP and obivously wanted to add a picture to the listing. After many failed attempts (in which the MP claimed the picture was bigger than 1MB, which it wasn't), I finally seemed to have sucess...only to be left with a loading total blank page for minutes. After I waited and nothing happened, I closed the browser tab to try again. But now the MP hates me. Whenever I log into the MP the page turns to "So sorry to keep you waiting. We'll be right back!" Which is, as I know, the usually standart message for some MP failure. What can I do now? I sure as hell want to sell my items, but more importantly I want my MP acess back and not run into that error again. Any advice what I can do now? Right now there appear to be general and widespread Marketplace issues - you can only wait it out. It's not specific to your account.
  11. Phil Deakins wrote: Whirly Fizzle wrote: Good grief you two, get a room already lol. My popcorn stash is reaching critical level! Lol. Aaw Whirly. I'm enjoying myself. I've got him over a barrel that he can't get off. He tries with lie/insult after lie/insult, but it won't alter the fact that I've asked him a question that he can't answer without admitting to being wrong - the wrongness was the start of this 'difference' - and I have to press it, no matter how much he squirms. It's not like we're calling each other nasty names, or anything like that. He's played his cards and he has a losing hand. I'm merely waiting for him to concede, or slink off. Speaking of asking questions that can't be answered without admitting one is wrong - how will faster bandwidth improve framerates?
  12. JayWaters wrote: There are some who play HUD based role play games that afk in their homes, perhaps they dont want to be killed in the game while they afk in their homes they pay for...hence the security orb set to 0 seconds because in some of those games if they can come in and attack for one second they will just do it over and over and over beating you til you are dead in the game system when you are afk..so thats why..and hey when I buy a house in my town, since I pay for my house..I am totally allowed to put locks on and not let you in my living room. I can also put up a locking fence around my entire property. Sorry if me not allowing you to run through my yard upsets you, its my yard stay off the grass. And you can shoot down airplanes flying over your property. Oh, wait... No, you can't.
  13. Ellie713 wrote: Hi there So, I have been completing tutorials on Social Island and it show's I have a "tutorial balance" of lindens, but those don't show in my overall balance. Am I only allowed to use those lindens on the island or is this an error and they should be showing in my overall balance? If it is an error, how do I go about fixing it? Thank you! Tutorial Lindens are only useful on the island for the specific items for "sale"- they're a training simulation. Real Lindens are exchangeable for real money so if real Lindens were given out on tutorial isles it would tempt people trying to take advantage of the system.
  14. Phil Deakins wrote: Ilithios Liebknecht wrote: Sounds like fun. That game is, of course, not poker in any way, but sounds like a good time :-) Of course it's poker. If you think about it, there isn't a game called poker - except what I described. You described a game but you called it draw poker. All the gambling poker games that I'm aware of are multi-word games; e.g. draw poker, stud poker, Texas holdem, etc. They are all varieties of the simple game of poker, which is deal the cards, then the highest hand wins. With the gambling varieties, you can't play a game of poker, because nobody would know how it goes. You have to decide which variety of poker to play for everyone to understand how to play it. Unless you're playing low ball, where the low hand wins. And the dealer has the option to say that you're playing low ball before he/she deals a hand in any poker game, because that's how a poker game works.
  15. lolalab69 wrote: For some reason over the past week I have lost the info up the top in the navigatio bar,i.e. the icons for voice, scripts, no pushing etc. How can I get them back please? Under the "World" menu, go to "Show" ("Show More" in Firestorm) and then turn on "Parcel Permissions."
  16. Phil Deakins wrote: I know I'm being somewhat nitpicking here, but dealing the cards and the highest hand wins IS the game of poker. When it's played, another game is added - betting on who has the highest hand, which also includes bluffing. When played, the two together are called poker. In fact, it's understood that there's betting when you sit down to play poker. Nevertheless dealing the cards and highest hand wins is the actual game of poker. Incidentally, that style of betting isn't unique to poker. It's done with other games too. So the betting isn't poker. Dealing/highest hand is. Please show us an authoritative definition for the game of poker which doesn't include betting as a fundamental quality.
  17. cindy20au Harvy wrote: trying to buy stuff from market place soon i press buy now says cashier is down, is market place down today The problem appears to be fixed now, at least for buying within the viewer.
  18. Callum Meriman wrote: Is it expected that LI on a sculpt object would double if one sets it to alpha masking as opposed to alpha blending? I noticed it when delagging some Kidd lavender, the LI jumped from 1 to 2. Tried the same on a 30LI Heart oak and it went from 30 LI to 60 LI. It was my impression that masking was a better technique to reduce lag as the blending calculations could be skipped. But if it doubles the LI of everthing it's done to that seems a bit counter productive. Anyone have any ideas on this, is it expected, are there any workarounds? With the new accounting there are three separate factors that make up land impact and any given object's land impact will be the highest of the three for that object. The factors are: Download weight: based on the number of vertexes the object has. With the new accounting most sculpted prims will have a download weight of 2 per prim. This is the increase you're seeing with those objects. (Incidentally, sculpts are capped at 2 for download weight - the land impact of a sculpted item will at most double.) Physics weight: how hard the physics engine needs to work to simulate collisions with that object. The big factor here is whether the object has holes through it that the physics engine needs to worry about. This is why a torus will have a high land impact under the new math, and why tortured prims have spectacularly high land impacts. However, this can be avoided by going to "Features" and changing their "Physics Shape Type" to "Convex Hull" (basically shrink-wrapping that object to fill in holes) or "None" (causing the physics engine to completely ignore it.) Server weight: The number of pieces the servers need to keep track of. Generally an object's server weight is 0.5 per prim plus a small additional amount for each script. With simple objects this number will therefore be lower than the basic prim count. You can determine which of these factors is controlling an object's land impact by editing it and selecting "More info" after where the land impact is listed. The trick to optimizing land impact is to set linksets up so that an object that's high in one factor but low in another is compensated by objects controlled by other factors. For instance, sculpted prims are high in download weight but low in server weight. Ordinary prim builds usually have very low download weights and are controlled by server weight, which is still lower than their prim counts. If you link your lavender, even at its new land impact of 2, to 5 conventional prims (very little download weight, server weight of 2.5) the total land impact of the linkset will only be three and controlled by the server weight because the higher download weight of the sculpt is "absorbed" by the low download weight of the prims.
  19. UvvU wrote: So I'm making an avatar with a base layer Kemono body, another Kemono body on top of that providing android-looking lines as an overlay to the base, and yet another body that is textured as a body suit. The problem is with the bodysuit layer. Frequently, the mesh (or texture, can't tell which) breaks. If I toggle the PG option for boobs in the Kemono body HUD the problem is fixed. But it will break again soon later. It breaks instantly when I zoom out really far and zoom back in, as well. I applied all the textures correctly. I didn't have a body on when I applied the texture. The bodies to be textured were rezzed separately on the ground with all the bits enabled. Does anyone have any ideas for a permanent fix? If more than one of the bodies was textured with "Alpha Blending" for transparency instead of "Alpha Masking" you'll have constant problems with the viewer being confused over which texture to show. Don't get me wrong; it's probably pretty confused by what you're doing anyway but multiple alpha-blended layers will completely bollix the rendering engine.
  20. Rory80 wrote: By a few days (almost a week) I am experiencing a lot of problems. login problems, problems relating to the nearby chat, inventory, the avatar not load, I can not edit objects, and many more. does anyone know what's going on considering that there is no maintenance at the time? Are you in northern Europe? Certain people in the area of Germany and Scandinavia are reporting similar problems right now. This is a JIRA about it: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-20201
  21. colleentrCCNVLE wrote: How do I change the class that I am enrolled in I created an avatar and completed the wrong orientation. I am enrolled in NR 512 not NR500. Colleen Trahey It sounds like you're part of a school group. This is the general question area for all of Second Life and we aren't familiar enough of the specifics of your school's program to know what to do. You'll have to ask someone at your school.
  22. Jayden Rammidge wrote: What is the average price for a 512sqm waterfront parcel on mainland with a sunrise/sunset view? I am new to buying mainland parcels. Please let me know. Thank you Another factor is whether the water you see is sailable - a vehicle can travel in it - or only the default void water which is only decorative. There are four criteria that effect waterfront land values: LOWEST VALUE - the lot is directly against a region edge with no adjacent region (no named square area on the map.) You can have a water view but you can't actually use the water for anything. LOWER MIDDLE RANGE - the water you see is actual sailable water but it's not Linden Lab-owned "protected" land - you can sail through this water but there's nothing from stopping a new neighbor from cutting off your access in the future. UPPER MIDDLE RANGE - the water is sailable and protected, but there's only a few regions of water that are connected to it. You can sail but can't go long distances and probably won't find any organized events to use your boat in. HIGHEST - On protected water that connects to a large network of sailable water regions.
  23. AikoSaito wrote: Ok,, so Im wandering around looking for "beachy" places to visit. I have the "A" for "Adult" rated box unchecked because Im not looking for places that are overtly naughty, because I just want to listen to music hang out and be social. I wander into a place called "Sexy Nude Beach - The Original @ terra concepts". Its rated "M" for Moderate not "A" for adult. Im looking around and seeing all sorts of Adult rated content. Then I recieve an IM from a mod telling me I have to leave because its an adult sim! Shouldnt this place be rated "A" for Adult if thats the case? And shouldnt they be forced to move to "A" rated land? Acording to the Maturity ratings page they are violating that. so why are they allowed to stay on "Moderate" rated land if they are actualy an "Adult" rated sim? Moderate Second Life's Moderate designation accommodates most of the non-adult activities common in Second Life. Dance clubs, bars, stores and malls, galleries, music venues, beaches, parks, and other spaces for socializing, creating, and learning all support a Moderate designation so long as they do not host publicly promoted adult activities or content and do not use adult search tags. Groups, events and classifieds that relate to this broad range of activities and themes generally should also be designated as Moderate. Residents in these spaces should therefore expect to see a variety of themes and content. Stores that sell a range of content that includes some "sexy" clothing or objects can generally reside in Moderate rather than Adult regions. Dance clubs that feature "burlesque" acts can also generally reside in Moderate regions as long as they don't promote sexual conduct, for instance through pose balls (whether in "backrooms" or more visible spaces). However if any of these businesses uses adult-oriented search tags, the region may be categorized as Adult and blocked from appearing in non-Adult search. How exactly do you "wander" into a place called "Sexy Nude Beach", in a region called (wait for it) "Sexy Nude Beach", and not expect it to be, well, a sexy nude beach? Incidentally, that region is an M-rated region that also contains a landscaping store, but it's directly attached to an "A" rated region that specifically sells sexual items. Are you sure you didn't "wander" across the border into the "A" rated region?
  24. Alwin Alcott wrote: reply to 09-07-2012 09:07 PM is kinda little bit late? ‎ Yep - the 12 year old would have only been 8 back then.
  25. wherorangi wrote: the USA in the main, follows the Proscriptive Principle, given that its legal history draws largely from english common law. The implications for SL is that the proscriptive principle also applies inworld, given that LL are subject to US law, both literally and in principle One wrench in that situation is that proscriptive systems are very rarely written in the way that says, "You can't do these five specific things; everything else you're good to go." Things that are prohibited are often quite vaguely stated to make it harder to exploit loopholes. This is particularly the case in something like a Constitution, which is meant as an overall framework rather than something specific - i.e. the Eighth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution says that "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." Annnnnd that's all you get. Not too useful for specific situations. Usually Constitutions are backed up with a court system and set of statutes, which can be spectacularly specific (check out Second 602 of the California Penal Code, which is the section on trespassing.) We can consider the Terms of Service to be the Constitution of Second Life, and they're equally as vague. For instance, Amethyst justifies the use instant-kick security under this clause of Second 4.8: You may permit or deny other users to access your Virtual Land on terms determined by you. Any agreement you make with other users relating to use or access to your Virtual Land must be consistent with these Terms of Service, and no such agreement can abrogate, nullify, void or modify these Terms of Service. On the other hand, there's also the clause in the TOS that's used to proscribe griefing: 6.2 You agree that you will not post or transmit Content or code that may be harmful, impede other users' functionality, invade other users' privacy, or surreptitiously or negatively impact any system or network. You agree to respect both the integrity of the Service and the privacy of other users. You will not: [...] (iii) Engage in malicious or disruptive conduct that impedes or interferes with other users' normal use of or enjoyment of the Service. There is no list of what "malicious or disruptive" conduct is though. It could be argued that instantly teleporting someone home because they unknowingly crossed an invisible line between public and private property is disruptive conduct that interferes with normal use of the Service. Or it could be argued that it's simply controlling access to your land. In the absence of a statue and/or specific official statement there's no way of knowing whether it's permitted or not. Incidentally, there's another clause we all agreed to: Exercise common sense and your best judgment in your interactions with others (e.g. when you submit any personal or other information) and in all of your other online activities. Like everyone's doing that one...
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