Parametric Deformer Project

[Sy Beck]

Some of you will be aware of the Parametric Deformer Project, which in a nutshell will allow mesh clothes to wrap exactly to an avatar shape.  The eventual project will be open source software for others to adapt for other mesh uses within SL. 

Now, given that you'll be able to wrap a mesh to an avatar, which is for all intents and purposes an object, how much of a jump is it to be able to wrap a mesh around any object in SL?  If it is or will be possible then there are some distinct advantages for sure.  All retailers of products will be able to update their products to mesh by simply wrapping them with this new procedure and texturing them again.  I'm sure it won't be that simple, but I'm also sure it would be quicker than rebuilding all their products from scratch in mesh.

So that would be an advantage, but there is something that I've been pondering, which might open a can of ugly worms.  If somebody owns an object created by someone else and they wrap a mesh around it and texture it then are we not into another round of copybotting and DMCAs?  Would no copy/no mod items be a thing of the past if people started to use this wrapping for their own needs and not even for illegal reselling?

To be honest I'm thinking out loud and maybe extrapolating too much about the possibilities of this project.  Maybe some of you know more about what is and what is not possible and where this can be taken in the future.  It may well be that LL could put some code out that would make it impossible to do legally.  I'm just airing my thoughts so wiser more knowledgeable people than me can put me straight on the facts and possibilities.

[Rival Destiny]

My first thought about wrapping would be the increase prim count by adding the mesh to prims.  I have no idea if this is possible either but I've heard already that some imported mesh have higher prim counts than expected and also that the same upload can vary in prim count with each upload.  The point though would be additional prim counts where a lower prim count would be more desired.

Also, to wrap mesh on an object, that object would have to be rebuilt in mesh & adapted to fit object.  I would think if you are going to rebuild the object in mesh, there would be no need for the object (prims) in the first place.   Just my thoughts and I could be way off base as well since I'm not versed in mesh.

[Qie Niangao]

Surely the point must be to enable the Mesh "wrapper" to deform dynamically, as scripts change the unattached prim object underneath.

Otherwise, it seems like something that should be quite doable in an external application, not something the viewer should have to do on the fly.

[Sy Beck]

I'm not sure if you are understanding my premise. 

Let's say that you are a furniture creator and have made an exquisitely detailed table in either prims, sculpts or even mesh, you've made it no copy and no mod and it sells very well.  I buy one of your tables and then using a mesh deformer I'm able to wrap a mesh around it to match your table exactly.  I can then take your table back into inventory or delete it.  I now have a perfect copy of your table bar any textures or scripts you might have had in your original.  My copy would, because it was my mesh, be full perms.  Therefore I can now have your table with that checkerboard texture I always wanted and I can make more copies of it if I wanted to and maybe I could even sell them to.

Like I said, I'm only speculating as to whether this is possible somewhere down the line with this deformer.

[Rival Destiny]

Yes I understand that part but was responding to the overall concept of wrapping an inworld object with mesh.

As far as the reselling of another build that has been copied via wrapping, I would think that the permissions of the 'object' from the other creator should be considered first and foremost.  If the object is not meant to be copied & sold then that should be honored.  I would consider wrapping to be copying.

Then we enter into the realm of who was the first person to create a 'chair'.  We see all sorts of similar builds where A says that B stole their idea because the chair they made has a back a seat & four legs.  I would think that common sense would prevail regarding those objects. 

Bottom line the word copy is key here.

[Ceka Cianci]

wow ..so people could copy other peoples products and scripts and textures and all with this thing and then have a full perm mesh version showing them as creator instead of the one that created it?

maybe i am misunderstanding  it hehehe i just got home from work so i'm a bit groggy..

[Sy Beck]

I quickly checked your products and indeed as far as your creations are concerned I don't think this project has any application for you unless you wanted to update all your prim and sculpt products to a mesh product by grabbing their shape with a deformer as a base for a new mesh version of them. 

This project is being initiated as a solution for better fitting mesh clothes, which it would undoubtedly improve.  On the other hand it is creators like yourself who might be affected by the negative application of this project.  I'm ambivalent about it at the moment, but am just wondering if this negative application of it is at all possible.

[Sy Beck]

Only the shape Ceka, nothing else.

[Ceka Cianci]

oh ok..then yes i misunderstood hehehe

[Rival Destiny]

Well I'm not on the mesh wagon yet as have very little time.  When I do though it will be to create something new.  My products are already dated IMO so it's onwards & upwards from here I think.

Interesting concept though.

[Parhelion Palou]

The parametric deformer works on a mesh so that it can be shaped to fit over the mesh underneath it. It doesn't deform prims or sculpties and it's probably something that will be specific to avatars since it would be built into the avatar code for the client.

 

 

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

Parhelion, wouldn't a parametric deformer need parameters from which to construct itself? This means the underlying mesh must be accessible, and therefore copyable, unless the SL engine allows "delta" parameters from an inaccessible mesh, which would make great sense. Then a clothing mesh could say "wrap me 3mm outside the mesh under me" and let SL keep its secrets.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Sy Beck wrote:

I'm not sure if you are understanding my premise. 

Let's say that you are a furniture creator and have made an exquisitely detailed table in either prims, sculpts or even mesh, you've made it no copy and no mod and it sells very well.  I buy one of your tables and then using a mesh deformer I'm able to wrap a mesh around it to match your table exactly.  I can then take your table back into inventory or delete it.  I now have a perfect copy of your table bar any textures or scripts you might have had in your original.  My copy would, because it was my mesh, be full perms.  Therefore I can now have your table with that checkerboard texture I always wanted and I can make more copies of it if I wanted to and maybe I could even sell them to.

Like I said, I'm only speculating as to whether this is possible somewhere down the line with this deformer.

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I don't know about this deformer thingie you mention Sy, but I think the way you'd want it to work is for the SL engine to accept "delta" mesh descriptions, which somehow allow you to define a mesh only as a deformation from some underlying thing, not as an absolute. So if you wrapped your upholstery material around a sofa, then deleted the sofa, your mesh would collapse. While this sounds like the right way to do it, I expect it's practically impossible, as you don't know how many vertices are in any underlying mesh, nor how your textures should map to the mesh. So it's prolly the case that you can only wrap objects for which you have the underlying mesh, and that allows copying but perhaps only by nefarious tools.

[Parhelion Palou]

I was referring to the Parametric Deformer Project from the original post. The Parametric Deformer Project involves modifying the avatar code in the SL client so that mesh clothing will conform to the avatar mesh. The client has has to have access to to the avatar mesh since the client is where your avatar is drawn/baked.

Sy wondered if the source code could be used to create something that would modify other objects. I don't believe that will be possible.

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Parhelion Palou wrote:

I was referring to the Parametric Deformer Project from the original post. The Parametric Deformer Project involves modifying the avatar code in the SL client so that mesh clothing will conform to the avatar mesh. The client has has to have access to to the avatar mesh since the client is where your avatar is drawn/baked.

Sy wondered if the source code could be used to create something that would modify other objects. I don't believe that will be possible.

 

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Yeah, I don't think it could modify other objects, Sy was also wondering about copying, and I think that's doable, just as sculpties and textures can be snatched by nefarious viewer code right now. One wouldn't need to wrap one's mesh around another, just extract the original mesh from the viewer and be done with it.

[Sy Beck]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote: in part

 

....the way you'd want it to work is for the SL engine to accept "delta" mesh descriptions, which somehow allow you to define a mesh only as a deformation from some underlying thing, not as an absolute....

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OK, that would make sense or at least it made sense to me.  I suppose that leads me to the question that when the code becomes final and is open source how easy would it be to make that cast or mould, as it were, absolute.

[Sy Beck]

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Parhelion Palou wrote:

I was referring to the Parametric Deformer Project from the original post. The Parametric Deformer Project involves modifying the avatar code in the SL client so that mesh clothing will conform to the avatar mesh. The client has has to have access to to the avatar mesh since the client is where your avatar is drawn/baked.

Sy wondered if the source code could be used to create something that would modify other objects. I don't believe that will be possible.

 

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Thanks Parhelion.  So the open source code once it's available can't be used/modified to perform the same kind of mechanic on any other object?

 

Anyhoos, I can sense that this topic is soon going to start to go over my head so I'm going to fall back on that wise adage, "It's better to shut up and appear stupid than to open your mouth and confirm it.".  So I shall go sit on the sidelines with matron and the wheezy boys and watch and listen.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Sy Beck wrote:

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Parhelion Palou wrote:

I was referring to the Parametric Deformer Project from the original post. The Parametric Deformer Project involves modifying the avatar code in the SL client so that mesh clothing will conform to the avatar mesh. The client has has to have access to to the avatar mesh since the client is where your avatar is drawn/baked.

Sy wondered if the source code could be used to create something that would modify other objects. I don't believe that will be possible.

 

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Thanks Parhelion.  So the open source code once it's available can't be used/modified to perform the same kind of mechanic on any other object?

 

Anyhoos, I can sense that this topic is soon going to start to go over my head so I'm going to fall back on that wise adage, "

It's better to shut up and appear stupid than to open your mouth and confirm it.

".  So I shall go sit on the sidelines with matron and the wheezy boys and watch and listen.

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The problem with open-sourcing viewer code (that cat has been out of the bag for some time) is that SL content (textures and sculptie maps) must be sent to it for rendering. If you can build your own viewer and know enough (I don't) to dig into the wiring, you have the keys to the kingdom. This will be true of mesh as well, since it's the viewer that must interpret the mesh description in order to draw it.

In the music world, while the decompression code (MP3, AAC decoders, etc) might be open-source, the rights management tools (Apple's Fairplay, Windows PlaysForSure DRM, etc) are not. If you have rights managed content, you must use a licensed player to hear it. There is no equivalent for Second Life.

And don't pipe down because don't think you know the topic, Sy. I don't have a firm grasp of it either and showing that is the fastest way to get teachers to come out of the woodwork ;-)

[Void Singer]

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Sy Beck wrote:

[...] So the open source code once it's available can't be used/modified to perform the same kind of mechanic on any other object? [...]

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 it probably could with tweaking, but to do that the original mesh would have to be available to the viewer, in which case it would be much easier to grab it the original instead of trying to grab a copy that was form fitted to another mesh which may not be as accurate.... it's very likely even in that remote case it would only apply to mesh objects.

[Rage Riptide]

Morph targets. Shapes are the problem. Avatar  mesh is not changed. PD will conform mesh to morphs. Doesn't wrap anything.

The "wrapping around meshes" is moot.

[Lee Ponzu]

The tool I always imagined...

1. Create an object inworld, using prims.
2. Click a button and it is converted to a similar object made from sculties/meshes
3. You own it, of course, so you can then download and work on with whatever outworld tools you want.

 

[Lindal Kidd]

I am not sure how using a mesh wrapper to copy an object differs from using Copybot.  The positive use I see for a mesh wrapper would be to exactly fit mesh clothing to an avatar.  This would make mesh outfits much more useful, since they would work more like traditional clothing layers that "always fit". 

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Lee Ponzu wrote:

The tool I always imagined...

1. Create an object inworld, using prims.
2. Click a button and it is converted to a similar object made from sculties/meshes
3. You own it, of course, so you can then download and work on with whatever outworld tools you want.

 

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I own a product that does this for sculpties.  But there are major constraints:

a. The prims have to be created by the owner and, consequently, full perm.

b. It can only process prims of certain shapes (off the top of my head... squares, cylinders and, I believe, spheres; plus, they can't be cut, hollowed, tapered or skewed).

c. It can only merge 16 prims at a time into one sculpty.

So, as you can imagine, it's uses are rather limited.  But, for what it does, it does it rather well... especially for someone who, at the time, had never successfully created a sculpty before.

Just saying.

...Dres