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Mesh Support on the Marketplace


Brooke Linden
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Hi all,

As many of you are aware, sims are gradually being mesh-enabled with the goal of reaching 100% support in-world as quickly as possible. Merchants who wish to sell mesh items on the Marketplace should bear in mind that many customers won’t be able to use them until the full rollout, likely resulting in many customer support requests. However, we are not doing anything to prevent selling mesh items on the Marketplace.

The week of August 1, 2011 we will begin allowing merchants who are Mesh enabled to mark an object as partially or entirely composed of Mesh when editing a listing.  Will the average purchaser care, or understand, what mesh means?  We are not sure of that answer, so for the initial rollout we won’t be displaying a mesh indicator on a product listing or providing a capability to search for mesh objects explicitly.  After that time, we will evaluate customer demand for those features. As we are allowing (and encouraging) merchants to mark their mesh offerings, adding those features at a later date will be simple.

We’ll continue to work with the Mesh team to make sure that features to support Mesh on the Marketplace “mesh” with their efforts to support creation of Mesh content inworld.

Please keep comments and feedback coming!

Brooke

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Thanks for the post.

Would it be possible to add PE count and range instead of (or in addition to) just prim count on listings since the PE count can vary with scale for mesh items?

Also, does LL plan to post a writeup about the important differences of mesh objects on the marketplace to help educate consumers? (For example, linking certain regular prims to a mesh prim can cause the PE to go drastically high which can cause parcel returns.)

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This is not a good idea at all, Mesh is being rolled out to volunteer regions under the proviso that it might break, letting people buy content that might break is a tad off.

Do you know something we don't Brooke? There's a stark warning on the Mesh Volunteer wiki page:

"Don't sell things on the marketplace - we're not looking to test marketplace yet. Also, you'll likely end up with angry customers. "

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/LiveVolunteers 

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That is a good warning and I think they all mean the same thing. Some creators won't list anything till it's reasonably safe or know exactly all the mesh details. Others will be looking to be "First" at something. Others want "The Cash" at anyones expence.

I can wait. I got some good sh!t.

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In the Mesh Group meeting today Nyx says the mesh format is NOT going to change and that they will not break mesh being uploaded now. Nyx added the caveate that there is no absolute guarantee. Some unforseen problem could force a change. However, the mesh team seems to be feeling confident they have things working well and the chance they will break current mesh uploads is very small.

However, changes to the servers, render pipeline, and scripts are likely. So, while a mesh may not break, earlier users may hit some bumps.

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Brooke Linden wrote:

Hi all,

 

As many of you are aware, sims are gradually being mesh-enabled with the goal of reaching 100% support in-world as quickly as possible. Merchants who wish to sell mesh items on the Marketplace should bear in mind that many customers won’t be able to use them until the full rollout, likely resulting in many customer support requests. However, we are not doing anything to prevent selling mesh items on the Marketplace.

 

The week of August 1, 2011 we will begin allowing merchants
to
mark an object as partially or entirely composed of Mesh when editing a listing.  Will the average purchaser care, or understand, what mesh means?  We are not sure of that answer, so for the initial rollout we won’t be displaying a mesh indicator on a product listing or providing a capability to search for mesh objects explicitly.  After that time, we will evaluate customer demand for those features. As we are allowing (and encouraging) merchants to mark their mesh offerings, adding those features at a later date will be simple.

 

We’ll continue to work with the Mesh team to make sure that features to support Mesh on the Marketplace “mesh” with their efforts to support creation of Mesh content inworld.

 

Please keep comments and feedback coming!

 

Brooke


Brooke,

What a shocking message from the person heading up the SL Marketplace.  Does Rodvik know you are making these decisions?

By NOT ACTIVELY BANNING any mesh product sales in SLM, not only is this a bad idea but even deceptive and unethical.

MESH on the SL main grid is so far from PRODUCTION and STABLE.  Public mesaages from the mesh team even warned those that are uploading Mesh models to be warned that what ever they upload and use will have limits and even a good chance of risk that their model could be corrupted or lost after a future upgrade to the server sims with any new mesh fixes. 

You even said yourself that you are aware that most customers will not be able to use the meshes (only LL V2 viewers with the mesh enabled - no main version of V2 nor no TPV supports it) and that not all sims would support it yet.  Finally several large scale deployment issues have not even been experienced yet nor has the details of mesh been figured out. 

I can bet 1 year's salary that MESH will be going through a lot of complications and "OOPPS we didnt think of that at LL" before mesh will be considered ready for real SL market selling.

Basically, MESH on SL is now entering a grid-wide beta that will likely last until early 2012.

In light of all this.... Brooke, you are saying that you will allow any Merchant of SLM that is unethical and starts selling Mesh to their customers.  Instead of protecting the interests of SLM Shoppers and Customers... you are endorsing Merchants to "for for it at their own risk".  Dont worry about the customers Brooke.

Its decisions like this Brooke that make me so worried at the release of Direct Delivery.

THIS IS A BADDDD & UNETHICAL move on LL's part.  I think I need to express my concerns to Rodvik as I cannot believe he would endorse your position.

Toy

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Nalates Urriah wrote:

In the Mesh Group meeting today Nyx says the mesh format is NOT going to change and that they will not break mesh being uploaded now. Nyx added the caveate that there is no absolute guarantee. Some unforseen problem could force a change. However, the mesh team seems to be feeling confident they have things working well and the chance they will break current mesh uploads is very small.

However, changes to the servers, render pipeline, and scripts are likely. So, while a mesh may not break, earlier users may hit some bumps.

So you went to the latest mesh group meeting and all you saw was the LL Mesh team giving the thumbs up that its safe enough to start selling MESH MODELS on SLM to the general customer base?

I saw the "there is not guarentee" and that unforeseen problems could force a change....

Do you remember that we are talking about LL.  Their history on product and services and features development and deployment is ALWAYS based on throwing concepts out too early and letting their customers find all the bugs for them to fix.  This is clearly how Mesh will work.  Unforeseen mesh bugs and limits and "OOOPSIES" will be happening for 6 months.

As such, so you think that Brooke is right that she should allow SLM to start selling mesh models to the customers?  And after 100s or even 1000's of mesh products are sold to the customers - because LL / SLM is allowing and and basically endorseing Mesh product sales, a big change is required that wipes out all the mesh models on the grid. 

Will you be there to say... I thought it was a good idea and I supported Brooke's decision that Mesh Models should have been allowed to be sold so early in the main grid beta of mesh?

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Brooke Linden wrote:

Will the average purchaser care, or understand, what mesh means?  We are not sure of that answer, so for the initial rollout we won’t be displaying a mesh indicator on a product listing or providing a capability to search for mesh objects explicitly.  After that time, we will evaluate customer demand for those features.

My guess is that the average purchaser buys products that he likes, regardless about the 'material' it is made from, prims, sculpts or mesh.

But there are also a lot of residents who don't work for the average consumer, but provide products for SL businesses. To name a few: business scripts, vendors, advertising devices, clothing templates. Also many sculptors are in this sector of the market. You can find most of their products in the category 'building tools'. And I'm sure there are residents who are developping a B2B assortment for mesh as well.

Buyers in this sector of the market are mainly builders and creators themselves. I think it is important for this group to provide all necesairy knowlegde about the products. And mesh is something very different when it comes to primcount then the products we are used to till today. While the current known products have a fixed primcount, mesh has a variable one.

 

The possibility to put in a number as prim count on the marketplace is just not good enough for mesh products. Because it is not true that a mesh has a prim count of X. A mesh can have a prim count of X when the size of the mesh is A. But when the size of the mesh is B, the primcount of the mesh is Y.  You you can only offer fair information to your  customer about a prim count when you can name the size of the product next to the prim count.


Brooke Linden wrote:

As we are allowing (and encouraging) merchants to mark their mesh offerings, adding those features at a later date will be simple.

 

 

Adding those features at a later date might be simple for you, but can be a lot of work for us merchants. Re-doing your listings because of changes in the marketplace is very time consuming.

Apart from that you are loosing your rank status at the marketplace when you make changes in your listings.

 

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:


Will you be there to say... I thought it was a good idea and I supported Brooke's decision that Mesh Models should have been allowed to be sold so early in the main grid beta of mesh?

Because we're keeping score? Put me down for a +1, because we've been through this before with sculpties with some glitches and changes over time, and many people did very well regardless.

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The changing prim count kinda-sorta came up on the Mesh forum and is a potential issue.

It would be much easier if you could indicate the prim count on the product "as sold". Meaning if the product were 10 meters out of the box, then it's a bit clearer to the customer. With a combined link for more detailed information on PE, it may help.

It was also brought up that this could be gamed somewhat by selling items smaller than they "should" be. For instance selling a tiny tree with a low prim count that would be expected to be at least 10 meters tall. Is this worth a "size" field in a mesh listing?

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 ok guys i am a little slow as seems and english is not my native language :P
what the announcement means practicly ? that i have to unlist all my products that contains mesh ?
Sorry if it's a funny question but i have to understand what to do . And if i unlist them i will be able to list them again from 1st of august ? Please help i don't want unhappy customers

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Eleni Connolly wrote:

 ok guys i am a little slow as seems and english is not my native language
:P

what the announcement means practicly ? that i have to unlist all my products that contains mesh ?

Sorry if it's a funny question but i have to understand what to do . And if i unlist them i will be able to list them again from 1st of august ? Please help i don't want unhappy customers

It means that Brooke Linden is saying that LL will allow and encourage that MESH CREATING MERCHANTS can put mesh items up for sale on SLM.

Even though the SLM listing features does not have fields that describe the special parts of a mesh - like its PE cost.  Even though the LL Mesh team recently announced that Mesh on the grid is for volunteers and that there is a risk that unforeseen problems might require changes on the grid servers that would damage or make all the mesh items currently coming on the main grid as useless.  Even though MESH on the main SL Grid is clearly in the early stages of beta (not ready for production - just experimenting for likely the next 6 months).

So if you are a merchant that is already selling MESH to SL Customers... even though there is a lot of limitations and risks to any customer that buys your mesh models, LL is allowing and encouraging it.

/ME SHAKES HEAD IN DISBELIEF...

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Brooke, this is rather premature (imo). Mesh is rolling out to some sims, not all, and certainly still going through tweaking, so it's not ready for prime time. Certainly not without a lot more information provided to the potential purchasers of it (whether it is end users, or creators buying prefabs to work with). I am a prefab purchaser for my creations and I understand very little of how these new Mesh objects can be used, let alone the IP rights associated with them, no matter how many Mesh Forum posts or Mesh meeting minutes I read. For instance, one prefab creator has notified their current sculpty customers that they "may" sell the files for download so that creators can upload them themselves and have their name as creator - how's that going to be handled on the Marketplace since the uploader needs to have PIOF and lots of people will buy not understanding that (even if it might be stated in the ad copy). And, then what about the unsuspecting purchaser of such a file that is perhaps stolen/pirated? The purchaser has no idea about that, but once their name is on the object as creator, are they the ones who will be subject to legal ramifications?

Maybe before this kind of new product is rolled out for purchase, there should be some official information about it? Not just the info in the Mesh Forum or Blogs or Meeting Minutes, because going through that is quite confusing. We need official information from LL about all the in's and out's of using Mesh.

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Arwen Serpente wrote:

Brooke, this is rather premature (imo). Mesh is rolling out to some sims, not all, and certainly still going through tweaking, so it's not ready for prime time. Certainly not without a lot more information provided to the potential purchasers of it (whether it is end users, or creators buying prefabs to work with). I am a prefab purchaser for my creations and I understand very little of how these new Mesh objects can be used, let alone the IP rights associated with them, no matter how many Mesh Forum posts or Mesh meeting minutes I read. For instance, one prefab creator has notified their current sculpty customers that they "may" sell the files for download so that creators can upload them themselves and have their name as creator - how's that going to be handled on the Marketplace since the uploader needs to have PIOF and lots of people will buy not understanding that (even if it might be stated in the ad copy). And, then what about the unsuspecting purchaser of such a file that is perhaps stolen/pirated? The purchaser has no idea about that, but once their name is on the object as creator, are they the ones who will be subject to legal ramifications?

Maybe before this kind of new product is rolled out for purchase, there should be some official information about it? Not just the info in the Mesh Forum or Blogs or Meeting Minutes, because going through that is quite confusing. We need official information from LL about all the in's and out's of using Mesh.

And what you are saying Arwen is EXACTLY examples of what I am saying why LL Commerce should be taking the exact opposite stance / position.  TO PROTECT THE SL CUSTOMER & REDUCE WORK ON SLM MERCHANTS.

Brooke and Dakota constantly make it  clear that they have so much on their plate and backlogs.... so much so that Brooke doesnt even have time to update us on the projects they are secretly working on in the backrooms of LL.  They have so little time that they cannot even fix the basic functions of SLM that used to work in xstreet.

and yet now Brooke states that she wants to allow and encourage that SLM Merchants start... SOMEHOW... creating new MESH PRODUCT listings into SLM and selling a product that still is only roughly understood by both Merchants and customers.... that has a rough several months of full grid beta activities in front of it (with pretty assured glitches).... that has no guidelines in SLM on how to define a Mesh (where on the listing do you define a PE? How do you define a PE if it can possibly change base on its scale? How do you define in the listing the IP ownship rights to the customer)....  that can only be used by a very very very small number of sims and users with special viewers (main LL and TPVs do not support mesh yet).

To say that LL endorsing Mesh listing in SLM is premautre is like saying it is premature to put the Titanic out to sea from drydock with part of the hull missing.

 

 

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Toysoldier Thor wrote

: How do you define in the listing the IP ownship rights to the customer)....


I think that is not different from how you define the IP right ownership of sculpted products.

I don't know how you do it with your products, but I never ever sell any IP rights to customers. I sell objects with a user license, but I stay the IP right owner. This user licenses gives the customer rights to use my products in their own creations, and to distribute those creations with limited perms within the world of SL. It also garanties them that they won't experiences any problems with IP rights as long as they use the product according to the the user license.

It won't be different for meshes. At least my 'prefab' meshes will come with user licenses and not with IP rights.

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Wait, let me get this right.

You're encouraging merchants to sell items that aren't going to work for everyone, will only work in certain places even with the right viewer, and with no intent of offering any system or links or instructions to users about what mesh is and how it works and what PE cost is, etc.?

And you expect all the merchants to handle all the mesh support requests (that is, the ones that aren't just going to take their L$, throw up a 'no refund' policy, and move on)?

I don't even have words for how bad an idea that is.

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:


Toysoldier Thor wrote

: How do you define in the listing the IP ownship rights to the customer)....


I think that is not different from how you define the IP right ownership of sculpted products.

I don't know how you do it with your products, but I never ever sell any IP rights to customers. I sell objects with a user license, but I stay the IP right owner. This user licenses gives the customer rights to use my products in their own creations, and to distribute those creations with limited perms within the world of SL. It also garanties them that they won't experiences any problems with IP rights as long as they use the product according to the the user license.

It won't be different for meshes. At least my 'prefab' meshes will come with user licenses and not with IP rights.

Made,

As a Sculpt Map pack creator and seller, I put MY OWN created license / IP Rights in my packs base on my own terms and rules.  All my fellow sculpty map makers / sellers do their own license & IP rights handling the way the want.  There is no set rules or minimum requirements on this that is set out by LL for any product on the SL market.  You set your license and IP rights as a merchant with no rules / restrictions set out by LL.

My understanding from LL and threads on mesh I have read is that this is not the case for MESH.  Uploaded mesh models REQUIRES PIOF on upload and even some tutorial they must have to understand your rights as an owner of the mesh in SL.  This is what I am touching on.  Also the properties in the Mesh (creator vs owner).

And I will also point back to Arwen's post.... 95% of merchants (even most of us Sculpty makers that has somewhat been watching the posts from the LL mesh team) are still very confused at all the details of how the Mesh model operate inworld... how they would be sold by a merchant, what IP and property permissions are vs other prims.

If you are telling us that all these answers are available and locked down... then I would think before Brooke opens the gates and invites all merchants to start creating and selling MESH LISTINGS in slm.... her team should be developing a well documented blog/wiki to explain all this and how a MESH would be sold on SLM and what restrictions there are and what added SLM listing development will be needed to support mesh sales and what mandatory PIOF and LL licensing / IP documentation is needed.....

Again.... what I see from Brooke's direction is .... Shoot from the hip & JUST DO IT  (but dont blame us or come to us if anything goes wrong) strategy.  Her team has not even thought this strategy out.  Its just the typical LL mentality of "sounds like a cool idea - go ahead and do it".

 

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Between the need for PIOF, a tutorial, and documents like the FAQ and those the FAQ points to, there isn't really a shortage of information about IP rights. Some more example cases could certainly be covered, although people will or won't read, will or won't understand IP issues without some homework of their own.

Not disagreeing that education and pointers to a few more answers isn't useful, though. Just that at some point IP is IP and people will or will not understand and respect it. At that point the same reporting processes apply.

From the Mesh FAQ on the wiki (which needs tweaking after Mesh is rolled out to the full grid):

 

Intellectual Property and Mesh

Do I retain intellectual property rights of the meshes that I create?

Yes, under the Second Life Terms of Service, you retain any intellectual property rights you have in the meshes and other content that you import into Second Life. It's important to remember that you're responsible for knowing your intellectual property rights, and if you're importing meshes or other content to Second Life, you must have all the necessary rights and permissions.

How can I protect my intellectual property in my meshes?

As we announced in our Content Management Roadmap blog post, we are committed to empowering content creators to better manage and control their content.

Mesh intellectual property rights must be respected during the Mesh First Look program. If we believe that any participant in the program is abusing intellectual property, then we may suspend the Resident from the program and, in egregious cases, from Second Life altogether.

Although meshes will be limited to our test grid during the First Look program, the protections of the Second Life Terms of Service, our Intellectual Property Policy, and Policy on Third-Party Viewers will apply to meshes. If content creators believe their meshes are being infringed, they may submit intellectual property complaints to Linden Lab requesting removal of the content at issue as provided in our Intellectual Property Policy. We are currently testing some early improvements to our intellectual property complaint process. Stay tuned for more content management announcements as we have them.

 

What if I download or purchase meshes from a service such as Google 3D Warehouse or Turbosquid? Can I use those in Second Life?

Every mesh you acquire from these and other sites is subject to its creator/vendor's particular license terms, and must be adhered to as such. Every individual Turbosquid model contains a license link on its main page, and Turbosquid's general Licensing Terms and FAQ can be found here. Google's 3D Warehouse Terms of Service can be found here. If any meshes violate either the original creator/vendor's license terms, or Second Life's Terms of Service and Policies, then we will handle the matter as previously mentioned.



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