Mesh Support on the Marketplace

[Arwen Serpente]

Hi Toy and Madeliefste, just a comment on my post and your responses. The issue I raise regarding IP rights was one that was brought up by a prefab sculpty maker (not me). That was the terminology they used. Maybe they used the incorrect terminology because for sure they are not selling their "IP" rights, they are selling a product with an end user license. This creator does not allow their sculpties to be used with their name on them as creator, so to abide by their TOS, the user needs to use the maps (or I guess attach a root prim of the final creator). So, that sculpty creator raised the possibility of selling the files for their customers to import themselves. That's why I am so confused about this - right now, I use sculpty maps inworld (doesn't matter to me whether they are full perm or no mod because I don't upload to my computer, I just build with them inworld) because I like my name on my creations. As a clothing maker, I really prefer maps because I can switch between maps to get just the right one to fit the project. I really dislike building with someone else's full perm objects - much more timeconsuming and difficult (not to mention the whole "created by" bugaboo). So let me be completely Meshnoob here, when I buy from a Mesh prefab maker, what am I buying? An object? A map to create an object? A file to download the maps? Lol, are they even maps that we use in the sculpty section of the edit window? Honestly, I haven't a clue. I would bet I'm not alone.

[Selva Magic]

POR FAVOR NO HABLO INGLES Y MI TRADUCTOR NO ES MUY CLARO, DESARIA SABER SI ALGUIEN ME PUEDE EXPLICAR EN ESPAÑOL EN QUE CONSISTE LAS NUEVAS NORMAS DEL MARKETPLACE Y QUE DEBEMOS HACER PARA SEGUIR VENDIENDO EN NUESTRAS TIENDAS AGRADEZCO DESDE YA CUALQUIER RESPUESTA UTIL. SALUDOS CORDIALES DE SELVA MAGIC.

[Madeliefste Oh]

Toyboy,

As a mesh creator you also put your OWN terms in a license based on your own rules. After all it are your IP rights and it's up to you to decide under which conditions you spread copies of products based on your IP right. LL has nothing to say about your IP rights. Whether you want to pick the fruits of them by exploring them commercialy or you want to share them on non-commercial base, it's just your decission.

The fact that you have to pass a gate at the doorway for uploading is different then with other products in SL. And like with a lot of things in SL it is just 'take it or leave it'.
What LL is actually protecting, by putting a gate for uploads, is you, the mesh uploader. In my opinion it is good that you are aware of what you can and cannot upload to SL. This awareness can save you a lot of problems and costs. For example when you model a nice Barbie and upload it to SL and sell it as a mesh Barbie and somebody of Mattel happens to find out about it, they will not go after LL, but after you. When you happen to have the bad luck to get IP right issues with such big compagnies be prepared to pay a lot for infringing their rights.

But when you are the legit IP right holder for a design it actually doesn't matter that you have to pass through a gate to be able to upload your models. The fact that you have been through this port changes nothing in the relationship with your customers when it comes to IP rights. It's simply up to you how to deal with them and how to put conditions for use of your products, and not to LL.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Arwen Serpente wrote:

Hi Toy and Madeliefste, just a comment on my post and your responses. The issue I raise regarding IP rights was one that was brought up by a prefab sculpty maker (not me). That was the terminology they used. Maybe they used the incorrect terminology because for sure they are not selling their "IP" rights, they are selling a product with an end user license. This creator does not allow their sculpties to be used with their name on them as creator, so to abide by their TOS, the user needs to use the maps (or I guess attach a root prim of the final creator). So, that sculpty creator raised the possibility of selling the files for their customers to import themselves. That's why I am so confused about this - right now, I use sculpty maps inworld (doesn't matter to me whether they are full perm or no mod because I don't upload to my computer, I just build with them inworld) because I like my name on my creations. As a clothing maker, I really prefer maps because I can switch between maps to get just the right one to fit the project. I really dislike building with someone else's full perm objects - much more timeconsuming and difficult (not to mention the whole "created by" bugaboo). So let me be completely Meshnoob here, when I buy from a Mesh prefab maker, what am I buying? An object? A map to create an object? A file to download the maps? Lol, are they even maps that we use in the sculpty section of the edit window? Honestly, I haven't a clue. I would bet I'm not alone.

---

Meshes don't work with maps, like scupties. When you buy a mesh model in SL you buy the model itself, the shape so to say. This model is not defined by a colormap, but uses a very different technique to be a shape in SL.You won't be able to change the creators name of the model, but you will be able to attach a (invisible) prim that shows you as creator.

For a clothing designer and for a buyer of clothes prim count is not a hot issue. So one prim more or less on a jacket won't have many influence on the marketability of your product as clothing designer, while that one prim more still gives you the possibility to add your name as designer of the end product you sell. 

 

[Arwen Serpente]

Thanks for that clarification. That was the clearest answer I've gotten on this whole Mesh topic so far. Of course, it opens up a ton of additional questions that I don't expect you to answer here in the forums (things like how many different variations of a mesh object will be sold per pack since right now when I buy sculpties I usually get a dozen or more variations to use; can I stretch and modify the mesh object to fit (and what about my end user - what are the permissions for the final products? for clothing, copy/mod or mod/transfer is extremely important for the end user); will they work in a linkset with resize scripts or color change or some other scripting; can flexible prims be attached; are the textures for the Mesh sold with it or is it a blank object; if the textures are sold with it, are they full perm so they can be modified in a graphics program for details or color; etc. that's the idea).

Basically (and this question is directed to the Commerce Team and/or Mesh Team at the LL level), who will be responsible for the education process with regard to these kinds of questions: LL? Mesh Creators? (because as I've said, there really is very little clear info on this topic - if someone wants to post a link with answers to the above, I will happily read it).

[Madeliefste Oh]

The big difference with texturing sculpties and texturing meshes is that meshes will make life easier for you. Most sculpts are hard to texture. For a sculpty you must always use the complete canvas to cover the sculpty. With mesh this will be very different. Creating textures for mesh will be more like creating clothing with help of the clothing templates.

Meshes are textured with help of uv maps. This uv map is a 'fold open' of the mesh model. I will show you some examples to visualise the differences:

 

Sculpt texture, you use the whole canvas for the texture:

 

This is how the UV map looks for the mesh model I have shown on the first picture:

 

This is how a textured UV map can look:

[Arwen Serpente]

Actually, for me it will be potentially harder. I make my fabrics in my graphics program (rarely with the shading provided by the scuplt creator, except in some special cases). Often they can be used for many different purposes and not just for sculpties. If the shade map shown is provided full perm, I would be able to work with it. New way of working/learning curve, and potentially a whole lot more uploads (in my case) than the way I currently work.

[Madeliefste Oh]

We can not predict how mesh will be available for and adapted by the market. When you are fine with using sculpts, why not just stick to them? In het beginning there won't be much prefabs available anyway. Just keep an eye on what happens in the clothing mesh market, and then one day when will find a mesh you just can't resist, give it a try to work with mesh. There is nothing to hurry as long as you are happy with sculpts.

[Arwen Serpente]

Totally agree and is my current plan. It remains to be seen how Mesh will be adapted to each market (clothing, furniture, landscapes, etc). While "wait and see" is sound thinking (and all someone like me can do right now), the question regarding education hangs out there blowing in the wind. Any creator in any point of the food chain needs to fully understand the materials used to keep quality high and customers satisfied.

[Tessa Harrington]

One thing I heard in the AWGroup was that ...

1. One of them tried to upload a couch and it told him he'd need to pay $661L to bring it in. That's the equivalent of $2.64! Is that going to be the going rate? How are the costs for uploads determined?

2. The second worry was this. If you built a house out of prims, then attached a mesh door, do prims or sculpts used automatically convert to a mesh value, makign them cost roughly twice the value in prim costs? Wouldn't that mean a 100 prim house could turn into a 200 prims house plus the prim cost for the mesh, just because you linked a mesh to it?

True? False? Or somewhere in the  middle?

If TRUE, then couldn't the latter scenario means a disgrunted user come into his land and force the sim into an over prim state and thereby automatically trigger the clean up process - start deleting builds to keep within the sim's prim allowance by deleting builds, from earliest built to current?

 

Thanks

[Toysoldier Thor]

Although this is interesting discussion - it is deviating away from the OP of the thread.....

The OP topic is....  "LL Commerce Team is publicly stating that its ok for Merchants to start selling MESH items on SLM and is encouraging it.  Is this a good idea at this time of Mesh's stage of evolution and maturity?  Should LL Commerce be more interested in protecting the SLM customer that will naively buy cool looking MESH ITEMS when most of them will not work in most sims and for most viewers for at least the next few months & the strong risk that an unforeseen bug/limit in mesh handling could render all purchased mesh model corrupted or useless?  If so, who will support the customer in situations like this?  Well LL Commerce Team open up a support line for SLM customers if/when all their purchased Mesh Models break?  Or when a mesh model crosses into a sim that poofs the model because the sim does not support it? etc. etc.)

This is the OP topic.

[Arwen Serpente]

Yes it is, and yes that was a deviation that ran its course. Sorry for that. As my original post indicated, my opinion is that it is too early for Mesh on the Marketplace - not enough information about it and the Marketplace isn't set up to allow proper/consistent listing of Mesh products from one creator to the next. Back on track...

[Tessa Harrington]

Understood Toy Soldier. Just trying to get a handle on how a consumer or land owner is to deal with these type things. From what I can tell there isn't a clear description of the DO's and Don'ts on this to avoid chaos like I'm asking about. And what the creator pays to bring in mesh will definitely affect my ability to purchase their content, as its obviously going to have to increase the price of that content if uploads increase that much. Which brings us back to the market and the consumer side of things. 

I'm agreeing with you that some basic tools need to be added to the marketplace beofre this gets greenlighted and ready for prim time, of its going to be a freakin' nightmare for eveyrone.

[Brooke Linden]

Hi all,

I would like to reiterate that Linden Lab is encouraging merchants NOT to list mesh objects on the Marketplace until all sims on the grid are mesh-enabled. We are providing merchants with the ability to mark listings as mesh, but recommend that merchants do not make such listings active until the entire grid is mesh-enabled.

I am working with the mesh team to address other questions raised on this thread by the end of next week.

Brooke

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Brooke Linden wrote:

Hi all,

 

I would like to reiterate that Linden Lab is encouraging merchants NOT to list mesh objects on the Marketplace until all sims on the grid are mesh-enabled. We are providing merchants with the ability to mark listings as mesh, but recommend that merchants do not make such listings active until the entire grid is mesh-enabled.

 

I am working with the mesh team to address other questions raised on this thread by the end of next week.

 

Brooke



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Thanks Brooke for "reiterating" your statement and that of the LL Commerce Team regarding Mesh on SLM - although I would moreso consider it a correction when I re-read your OP.

In the OP you stated quotes like:

However, we are not doing anything to prevent selling mesh items on the Marketplace.

and...

As we are allowing (and encouraging) merchants to mark their mesh offerings, adding those features at a later date will be simple.

 

which far from gave the impression that LL Commerce Team was discouraging the listing of Mesh objects on SLM.

I would suggest that you retract position you stated that LL Commerce Team will not be preventing mesh items from being placed onto the Marketplace.  LL should NOT ALLOW MESH ITEMS ON SLM until your team fully understands mesh's progress on the grid as well as your team fully understands and can update the SLM Item listing to properly support the listing of a Mesh item and until your team as well as the mesh team can fully document how a mesh item can be properly sold on SLM.

But thanks for reiterating LL Commerce's position.

[Hilario Aker]

Alguien Me puede Explicar Que Esta Sucediendo por Favor, tengo mi tienda y me aparece error, se lo agradecere

[cuttychick123inbox]

thanks i need ajob

[JadeDragon Destiny]

 I dont understand what mesh is or means, let alone shoppers, How does it affect merchants on Marketplace...Can anyone fill me in, I have read the notice of Brooke...but still clueless. :matte-motes-grin:

[Ashasekayi Ra]

You can learn more about mesh in SL if you go over to the mesh forums or visit: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh.

Also, some one else asked for an explanation of mesh in the following thread: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/I-dont-get-it/td-p/998881

[Steph Catseye]

Brooke excuse me for wildly protesting, this will lead to confusion and complaints! There are 2 ways how to handle this

1) don't allow us to sell mesh items

2) make a category with a big red banner that states the fact that Mesh is experimental at this stage and that there are server side short comings and that people could actually loose their items! Vier requirements ect...

By leaving it uncategorized people will buy it without knowing what they buy, won't be able to use it and blame the merchant for shortcomings he has no influence on!

You never get a 2nd chance to make a first impression! Mesh could change the face and quality of SL, don't get people to hate it before it reaches release status!

Please take this serious because WE are the pople dealing with the complaints eventually!

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Steph Catseye wrote:

By leaving it uncategorized people will buy it without knowing what they buy, won't be able to use it and blame the merchant for shortcomings he has no influence on!

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There is a lot a merchant has no influence on, like how LL calculates prim count for mesh, what possibilities of meshes are and are not supported. Or when third party viewers will be able to show mesh... or whether the majority of resident will find mesh important enough to step over to viewer 2, while they are more happy with a viewer 1. 

But the thing a merchant has influence on is when, where and how he will market his own products. When merchants feel the platform is not stable enought to sell mesh yet, they just should not sell it. When they don't want to receive complaints from V1 users who will see the meshes corrupted, they should not sell it, or warn the buyer for this before he purchases. 

There will be a day that mesh is released on the main grid any way... with all the short comings is still has. My idea is that this day is not so far away anymore. It is up to you as mesh creator whether you want to make your products available in this current stage of mesh development, or not.

There are pro's and there are cons for coming out with new products in an early stage. It's for the merchants himself to weight these pro's against these cons. And it's for him to deal with customers who don't understand this product or have problems with his product. It might  consume a lot of time to deal with these things, but it might also be a very good learning experience that leads to more education for his customers or better products for consumers.

 

[Igatso Xaris]

whats going on is and what ar mech? the only thing i have in intresst is too seel my work that build and placing out on market place i have no intresst too get points exc all i want is too seel what im building  thats only my intresst

[daniellewalsh]

i need too be able to get into second life and its not allowing me x

[Paul Hexem]

My concern is the merchants that don't care or don't know, that release mesh anyway, either intentionally or accidentally misleading their customers.

Since LL doesn't like to get involved in disputes, you'll have a lot of merchants taking money from residents for worthless products, and then throwing up some "no refunds" policy and walking away with the L$.

[Madeliefste Oh]

That is a general danger, which is not specific mesh related. It can happen as well when somebody sells skins, furniture or scripts. But that is not a reason to to not allow people to sell skins, furniture or scripts on the marketplace. There is always a chance that there are a few rotten apples in the basket, there will be some in the mesh basket as well, just like in all other sectors of the market.

But people who can make meshes would be rather stupid to develop a sales strategy that gives them a bad name and no returning customers. They have the skills to make something better out of it.