Wearing & Decorating With PBR Content

[Gabby Pixelbottom]

I've been playing around with PBR textures and what I've been doing for the fallback texture is using the color (Albedo ) from the PBR texture. Sure, it doesn't have all the baked-in details, but it's a lot better than nothing at all in my opinion. I kind of wish LL built in a fallback that used the color PBR texture, mapping, and rotation but only when no legacy textures had been applied.

[Salt Peppermint]

22 hours ago, WeFlossDaily said:

I still don't understand the unwillingness to use fallback textures.

I still don't understand why a day can't have more than 24 hours.

[Robin Kiyori]

18 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I'm thankful some do. I'd lose so much avatar-critical mod support (entire body parts) if I had to switch to X anytime soon.

That reminds me - speaking of body parts. Does the whole PBR thing mean we could possibly see PBR body mods and addon parts soon? 👀

*Android-Aya intensifies*

PBR body parts would be amazing and we need them.

And yesss join the robot world!

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

Fact: SL's "days" are actually only 4 hours long; the SL sun rises and sets in just 2 hours, followed by 2 hours of night.

Edited 8 hours ago by SarahKB7 Koskinen

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

Fact: SL's "days" are actually only 4 hours long; the SL sun rises and sets in just 2 hours, followed by 2 hours of night.

......I made my first EEP "day cycle" the other day.....

..and it let me set the length to zero/infinity (always day).

So maybe the "fact" depends on your settings? Asking because I like facts.

[Salt Peppermint]

19 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Neither really do I. I suppose a really skilled creator might be able to leverage PBR to good effect for simple textiles such as denim, but for non-shiny or reflective objects and surfaces, I really doubt there is a lot of difference between PBR and BP. Or at least not one that is easily detectable.

the difference is huge. PBR is not just there for shine. let me try to explain and I hope that make things a little bit more clear.

 

PBR stands for physical based rendering, what it does, it basically mimics RL light behavior and how light reflect on ALL surfaces.

A white cotton shirt, a rough dull rock, a shiny gold necklace all reflect light just in different ways because each of those materials has different qualities. If something would not reflect light in RL, you would literally see a black hole.

reflecting light doesn't equal seeing sharp reflection of your Environment. the more rough a surface is the more scattered the light rays bounce off it again.

PBR mimics this behavior. so lets take the example of the pair of denim. for a PBR denim material, no shadows and no light effects are baked into the base color (which previously would be our diffuse map). so while moving the shadows of wrinkles, folds and light effects are rendered in real time and the item becomes way more realistic because those shadows actually move even if the surface is matt. sometimes it's more subtle, sometimes more obvious.

secondly, imagine coming into a room set up all in red light. when you enter such room in real life, every surface, no matter if it's shiny or dull but be tinted red. your brain still "re-calulate" and depending on how strong the red light is, you will still know, these denims are actually blue, and the cotton shirt is actually white. but when you look at it, you see the red tint. Same in SL

now if you have this said red room set up in SL, and the set up is all in PBR, and you wear a PBR denim, you will have this red tint reaction. a previous baked denim, will just turn ashy and lose depth of color because it simply can not react to light. 

edit: I would like to add: for many (not all) items PBR allows you to use tiled textures because we do not have to bake in lights or shadows anymore. that allows us to make much more crisp textures.

I hope this made it a bit easier to understand. I happy to explain more if needed ❤️

Edited 8 hours ago by Salt Peppermint
added one point

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

@Love Zhaoying

EEP and the actual SL 4 hour day cycle are two separate things, although EEP can be timed to follow it.

EEP can be ignored too with alternative constant day/night/dawn/dusk/whatever settings. But the SL sun/moon and 4 hour "SL day" cycle is always constantly there in the background hiding behind whatever EEP settings you have.

Which is why in your EEP night settings you might hear a daytime bird sound in the sim singing in reaction to the SL sun being up (hiding in the background behind EEP settings). Or a night time owl hooting in your EEP daytime setting.

There are also scripted streetlights that turn on/off at strange times in EEP too, which react to the SL sun/moon/day/night cycle too and which aren't scripted to pay any attention to EEP settings.

Edited 8 hours ago by SarahKB7 Koskinen

[Ayashe Ninetails]

7 minutes ago, Robin Kiyori said:

PBR body parts would be amazing and we need them.

And yesss join the robot world!

Lol, imagine??? Omg. Just think - PBR-fabulous T-1000 mods? Not just the liquid metal appearance, which would be nuts enough, but the hole effects in the head/body...(I gotta talk to Bespoke about that one...)...

PBR mermaid tails. PBR hands and feets. PBR nails, talons, and claws. PBR cyborg limb replacements. PBR androids. PBR everything Azoury. PBR skelly bones and skulls. PBR furries and scalies and aquatics!

I still think the lighting needs fixing first, but oh mannnnnn...

[Salt Peppermint]

Just now, Ayashe Ninetails said:

PBR mermaid tails. PBR hands and feets. PBR nails, talons, and claws. PBR cyborg limb replacements. PBR androids. PBR everything Azoury. PBR skelly bones and skulls..

yes yes yes and yes!!!!!!!!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Salt Peppermint said:

yes yes yes and yes!!!!!!!!

DOLLS! Saaaaalt... 👀 Don't you have plastic ball-joint dolls....

AHH, the possibilities are endless!

[Salt Peppermint]

Just now, Ayashe Ninetails said:

DOLLS! Saaaaalt... 👀 Don't you have plastic ball-joint dolls....

AHH, the possibilities are endless!

I do, and yes they evetually absolutely will be updated to PBR. the regular doll as well as the cyberdoll!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Just now, Salt Peppermint said:

I do, and yes they evetually absolutely will be updated to PBR. the regular doll as well as the cyberdoll!

Yes!!!!!! That sounds incredible. Thank you! I'll add an updated PBR mannequin/doll to the list of avatars I need to make for myself in the future once things stabilize with these new updates a bit. 

[Cloud Python]

On 9/21/2024 at 7:10 PM, WeFlossDaily said:

would it really be that much extra work to make it work?

 

[Salt Peppermint]

6 minutes ago, Cloud Python said:

 

Unfortunately that’s not really how it’s done unless you want to completely give up on quality. In that case you can also just tint the white mesh. It might work for a flat surface but even there you would have to adjust normal and create a specular (which we don’t for PBR) for a legacy set up.  Also roughness needs to be adjusted before you bake it down unless you want to end up with something looking super dull or super shiny. For something like clothes where folds and wrinkles play a big role, this method is not suitable at all, same for anything with multiple different materials and surfaces. And let’s not even talk about that whichever procedure you chose, you have to repeat it for every color variation

 

[WeFlossDaily]

@Cloud Python So it can be done in under 2 minutes.

Nice. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

23 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

@Cloud Python So it can be done in under 2 minutes.

Nice. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Why not just test it out and see how long it takes?

If you can do it in under 2 minutes for items with numerous colors like Salt mentioned, I'd be tempted to hire you to make me a few custom body parts with fallback textures so I can finally see what all the PBR fuss is about. 😂 

I haven't seen a whole lot of PBR things I'd use yet (body mods are where my interests lie with this stuff) and I'm curious how much fiddling with EEPs and probes it'd actually require on my part to get worn items to look right.

When I last tested, my milkshake maker and lemon pie looked fabulous indoors without any probes and I'm not even sure how or why that's possible. I probably just got lucky. I need more stuff to play with - especially stuff I can run around in.

Edited 1 hour ago by Ayashe Ninetails
Grammaring

[Flea Yatsenko]

24 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

@Cloud Python So it can be done in under 2 minutes.

Nice. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

 

You have to do it for every material in the build, which can add up quickly if you have a complex build. You also have to apply both in world instead of one. If you have multiple color versions you have to do it for each one. It is not under 2 minutes to get a complete non-PBR diffuse version. If you are not premium+, you also have to pay to upload another texture.  It does add up, maybe it's not so much for a lamp or something but for a complete house, it would be a nightmare. Not to mention if you are working in Substance Painter or something you won't even have those maps in Blender, so to use that method you'd have to import everything to blender, bake every material, then export every image from Blender.

And as @Salt Peppermint said, that method is more or less only for getting the colors, any sort of additional detail or anything else is going to be missing. And at that point why even bother doing any of that and instead just use the base color map from the PBR material. In fact that video isn't even for converting PBR materials to a texture, it's for taking procedural generated images created with Blender nodes and getting an image from it.

I think there's a bit of confusion going on about all of this. That is honestly one of the most tedious ways I can think of to make a non-PBR fallback texture for SL.

[WeFlossDaily]

32 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Why not just test it out and see how long it takes?

If you can do it in under 2 minutes for items with numerous colors like Salt mentioned, I'd be tempted to hire you to make me a few custom body parts with fallback textures so I can finally see what all the PBR fuss is about. 😂 

I haven't seen a whole lot of PBR things I'd use yet (body mods are where my interests lie with this stuff) and I'm curious how much actual fiddling with EEPs and probes it'd actually require on my part to get worn items to look right.

When I last tested, my milkshake maker and lemon pie looked fabulous indoors without any probes and I'm not even sure how or why that's possible. I probably just got lucky. I need more stuff to play with - especially stuff I can run around in.

I just asked because I was curious and don't really understand. Some ppl claim it's not feasible. Others claim it can be done within reason.

Have you experimented any with the open source mermaid tail?

22 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

I think there's a bit of confusion going on about all of this. That is honestly one of the most tedious ways I can think of to make a non-PBR fallback texture for SL.

I'm starting to think all answers contain some level of bias.

Edited 57 minutes ago by WeFlossDaily

[Cloud Python]

7 hours ago, Salt Peppermint said:

PBR stands for physical based rendering, what it does, it basically mimics RL light behavior and how light reflect on ALL surfaces.

Here's a lovely blue sky:

Here's some PBR gold:

Here's how that PBR gold looks under that lovely blue sky:

The accuracy with which it mimics RL light behavior is jaw dropping.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

12 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

I just asked because I was curious and don't really understand. Some ppl claim it's not feasible. Others claim it can be done within reason.

I think it highly depends on the items/objects in question. Something like a basic set of nails in a few colors (omg, need plz) might take a bit, but then something like a whole house, a vehicle, a decked out furnished skybox, a dining room set, a complex outfit, a multi-part costume, a fantasy head... I'm guessing those take a lot more time to do.

I'm not a 3D artist, though, so I'm just glad it's not me who has to do it. 😂

 

12 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

Have you experimented any with the open source mermaid tail?

I haven't, noooo. I'm still tied to my Nemissa. It's the prettiest one I've tried so far and my absolute favorite and I adore the BOM overlays available for it (the ice cream cone mod is the cutest!!!!). Unfortunately, Cynefin is gone, so it's never getting updates. If a tail comes out that I prefer the look of, I'll consider getting an upgrade.

Edited 45 minutes ago by Ayashe Ninetails
Grammaring

[Cloud Python]

37 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

You have to do it for every material in the build, which can add up quickly if you have a complex build. You also have to apply both in world instead of one. If you have multiple color versions you have to do it for each one. It is not under 2 minutes to get a complete non-PBR diffuse version. If you are not premium+, you also have to pay to upload another texture.  It does add up, maybe it's not so much for a lamp or something but for a complete house, it would be a nightmare. Not to mention if you are working in Substance Painter or something you won't even have those maps in Blender, so to use that method you'd have to import everything to blender, bake every material, then export every image from Blender.

That's what every creator worth their salt was already doing for years, like Nutmeg, only now instead of having to do that process, just stop halfway, get the PBR-stack directly on SL, and claim doing what they've be doing for years until now is next to impossible now 🙂

Edited 42 minutes ago by Cloud Python

[elleevelyn]

3 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

I'm starting to think all answers contain some level of bias.

this is true in any work process

I had a huge convo with my aunt last weekend about the best way to plant lettuces and spinach in our vege garden (is spring here). Then a family friend popped in to visit and joined in the convo. Then the neighbour who is an avid gardener decided to pop over as well. Everybody an expert. In the end was agreed that I would do it my way, seeing as how I was the actual one doing the work. Everyone else retired to the outdoor chairs and had a cup of tea, while they all watched me work and kept a running commentary of how I could do it better and also arguing amongst themselves, including debating how I don't listen to my elders, younger people today totes disrespectful not like in  the olden days

after I done all the work and sat down for my own tea they then all go. They look alright, you did quite a good job and they all congratulate themselves how well they have raised me. And I just smile and say thanks, while thinking I wonder if I get in too much trouble if I just like stab them all with my garden fork 😺

 

[Cube Republic]

21 hours ago, Gabby Pixelbottom said:

I've been playing around with PBR textures and what I've been doing for the fallback texture is using the color (Albedo ) from the PBR texture. Sure, it doesn't have all the baked-in details, but it's a lot better than nothing at all in my opinion. I kind of wish LL built in a fallback that used the color PBR texture, mapping, and rotation but only when no legacy textures had been applied.

Multiply the AO map over the color map in photoshop. 

[WeFlossDaily]

28 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I haven't, noooo. I'm still tied to my Nemissa. It's the prettiest one I've tried so far and my absolute favorite and I adore the BOM overlays available for it (the ice cream cone mod is the cutest!!!!). Unfortunately, Cynefin is gone, so it's never getting updates. If a tail comes out that I prefer the look of, I'll consider getting an upgrade.

The open source tail probably isn't as nice but I thought it was cool that an effort was made to make a modifiable tail and then put it out there for free. I think the only thing I paid for to make a mermaid avatar was tail HUD for like L$ 10. If I understood how to make textures and wanted to go PBR, I guess that'd be something of interest.

While not extremely interested in becoming PBR, I'm a little curious why nobody has brought up using RLV commands to control EEPs for outfits on attach yet, as this could serve as a potentially easy way for users to switch between EEPs when they switched between outfits.

[Dragon Mommy]

52 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

I just asked because I was curious and don't really understand. Some ppl claim it's not feasible. Others claim it can be done within reason.

Have you experimented any with the open source mermaid tail?

I'm starting to think all answers contain some level of bias.

Every artist is going to have a different workflow that works for them. Not every artist is going to have the exact same skill or tools.

We all have limited hours in the day. Some creators are going to choose to make fallback and others won't find it worth it to. I'm sure what people choose to buy will have an effect on that.