Solar Legion Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 Dear lord ... The Specificatons Page has always been a joke. Always. Stop quoting it. Stop pretending it is meaningful. Stop pretending that an off the shelf laptop from Walmart is sufficient for anything other than a glorified Word Processor or Arcade Box (maybe a portable DJ deck - software only - or Media Server). 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted August 25 Author Share Posted August 25 46 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: God I love Peter Cook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted August 25 Author Share Posted August 25 3 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: Stop pretending that an off the shelf laptop from Walmart is sufficient for anything other than a glorified Word Processor or Arcade Box Surely, though, the point is that LL has to stop pretending this? We might "know better," but a noob wanting to check out SL obviously doesn't. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: Is there any other valid reason? I can only speak from my own personal experience and what I suspect is motivating LL because as I already said nobody but them really knows but I was recently watching a quite popular twitch streamer, vtuber and developer who is working on their own virtual world type product (it's okay folks, you can put the pitchforks away, it's not going to be a direct competitor for SL ). People were asking her what type of "game" she was working on and asking if it was just another version of VRChat and her response was "No, it's not like VRChat, you'll be able to build and create. It will be like Second Life but modern, so it doesn't look like it was made in 2008!" The truth is the vast majority of people who aren't already in SL think it still looks like this... ... because in quite a few places it does. You can argue that LL's attempts to modernize SL are ill-fated and incompetent (and there's certainly evidence to support those claims), but if their motives for introducing PBR are an attempt to make SL seem more attractive in comparison to other games and platforms I'm not really sure what other choice they had. Edited August 25 by Fluffy Sharkfin words are hard... 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelsea Hansen Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 2 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said: still looks like this I've seen those places. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Surely, though, the point is that LL has to stop pretending this? We might "know better," but a noob wanting to check out SL obviously doesn't. If a noob giving it a first look does not immediately question why hardware that has been discontinued for well over a decade or more (fifteen years I do believe) is still on the Requirements page ... Yeah no. Don't care about the absolutely gullible. Not a single 'spec' on that page can be taken seriously. at all. For any use beyond a glorified Word Processor or Streaming Box. Those that find this 'amusing' in any way or that pay those specs any mind whatsoever need a serious reality check and to step outside for a bit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 4 minutes ago, Chelsea Hansen said: I've seen those places. Same here, and to be clear I'm not arguing that LL should "get rid of them", however they aren't really showing the full capabilities of the platform, even prior to PBR. LL have always relied on residents to create content for SL, and that seems to include the majority of media that they rely on to attract new users. This is why I suspect that part of the reason they were eager to get everyone on PBR is so that all those people posting pictures on flickr, social media, etc. would be posting things that showed SL in a more "favourable" light. Unfortunately for LL and us, they underestimated just how badly the performance hit was going to affect their customers, didn't really think through the whole "lighting" thing and most likely under-estimated just how long it's going to take for PBR to have a real impact on the platform. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelsea Hansen Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 7 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: Yeah no. Don't care about the absolutely gullible. What about a grandma who saw the bad specs? Would you care about Grandma? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 Just now, Chelsea Hansen said: What about a grandma who saw the bad specs? Would you care about Grandma? .... Nice bit of bait there. The simple reality is that "Grandma" is either going to be asking her kids or Grandkids if the specs sound right/if they can aid her in getting a PC that can actually run what she wants to run or is not likely to be interested much in Second Life. Yes, we do have grandparents and such who play Second Life - the majority of those have been more than capable of not falling for what is obviously not the actual or meaningful specs. Got anything better or were you just laying the aforementioned bait? Rhetorical question - if you're going to believe those are the actual specifications then you're rather likely to believe a telephone/e-mail/snail mail/general scammer. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 38 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: Dear lord ... The Specificatons Page has always been a joke. Always. Stop quoting it. Stop pretending it is meaningful. Stop pretending that an off the shelf laptop from Walmart is sufficient for anything other than a glorified Word Processor or Arcade Box (maybe a portable DJ deck - software only - or Media Server). It's one of the only things those with poor arguments have (the Specs page). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelsea Hansen Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: Nice bit of bait there. The simple reality is that "Grandma" is either going to be asking her kids or Grandkids if the specs sound right/if they can aid her in getting a PC that can actually run what she wants to run or is not likely to be interested much in Second Life. Yes, we do have grandparents and such who play Second Life - the majority of those have been more than capable of not falling for what is obviously not the actual or meaningful specs. Got anything better or were you just laying the aforementioned bait? Rhetorical question - if you're going to believe those are the actual specifications then you're rather likely to believe a telephone/e-mail/snail mail/general scammer. No bait, and being silly, and just contemplating what we need to hold others responsible for regarding specs. My guess is that they aren't even looked at when checking out Second Life, and that most people interested in a game pretty much have enough juice to run it. Most. Edited August 25 by Chelsea Hansen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 5 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: The simple reality is that "Grandma" is either going to be asking her kids or Grandkids if the specs sound right/if they can aid her in getting a PC that can actually run what she wants to run or is not likely to be interested much in Second Life. Yes, we do have grandparents and such who play Second Life - the majority of those have been more than capable of not falling for what is obviously not the actual or meaningful specs. Theoretical grandmothers aside, there are still plenty of people who have posted on these forums that clearly don't have much experience with hardware. More to the point just because the listed specs are so obviously outdated that nobody who does have experience with hardware wouldn't take them seriously is certainly no excuse for LL to simply skip updating them, especially after releasing an update that so clearly requires better hardware than was previously necessary. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeathcliffMontague Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 6 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said: iGPUs are basically always very low end in the context of GPUs. It's not a criticism it's just a fact, even the fastest currently available iGPU (Radeon 890 available on the very latest Ryzen CPUs) is barely comparable to an Nvidia Geforce 1650 and only really in certain tasks. They're hobbled, basically. Apple Silicon is a special case I guess, give it something Metal to work on and it's pretty fast but it's not particularly great at the OpenGL we're relying on. Of course iGPUs can be found in relatively high end systems it's just they aren't powerful enough to be of a whole lot of use in SL but that Radeon 680/780/890 iGPU might be close. Yep. Agreed, no argument there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said: Theoretical grandmothers aside, there are still plenty of people who have posted on these forums that clearly don't have much experience with hardware. More to the point just because the listed specs are so obviously outdated that nobody who does have experience with hardware wouldn't take them seriously is certainly no excuse for LL to simply skip updating them, especially after releasing an update that so clearly requires better hardware than was previously necessary. No hardware experience is required to understand that the listed Specs are so vastly out of date for anything as to be beyond a joke. ETA: And yes, I am phrasing it like that for a reason. Edited August 25 by Solar Legion 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: No hardware experience is required to understand that the listed Specs are so vastly out of date for anything as to be beyond a joke. Perhaps you underestimate just how clueless some people can be, which is understandable for those of us that are very involved in such things because we don't tend to associate with many truly "technologically uninitiated" people (I have a couple of friends who refuse to even have a smart phone and are still clinging to their old Nokia phones and believe me they wouldn't understand a single word of what's written on the recommended specs page). Anyway, the point remains, LL could remove all the text on that page and replace it with lines of 🤡 emojis to let people know that the recommended specs are a complete joke but it still doesn't absolve them of their responsibility to provide meaningful information to their paying customers. Edited August 25 by Fluffy Sharkfin 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 Just now, Fluffy Sharkfin said: Perhaps you underestimate just how clueless some people can be, which is understandable for those of us that are very involved in such things because we don't tend to associate with many truly "technologically backward" people (I have a couple of friends who refuse to even have a smart phone and are still clinging to their old Nokia phones and believe me they wouldn't understand a single word of what's written on the recommended specs page). No, I do not underestimate such a thing. I simply care so little at this point that I can barely care any less. I am not as involved in such things myself and still understand just how out of date those specs are. Quote Anyway, the point remains, LL could remove all the text on that page and replace it with lines of 🤡 emojis to let people know that the recommended specs are a complete joke but it still doesn't absolve them of their responsibility to provide meaningful information to their paying customers. Never said it does absolve them. However something you really ought to understand is that due to the very nature of Second Life the best they can give is a guess/estimation for those specs. Frankly what they ought to do is set the specs to examples of hardware fro the last seven years or so as a Minimum, set something a bit newer as Recommended (with the additional text on each entry that reads "or newer") and place a bold text disclaimer to the effect of these being suggestions and that actual specifications/performance/etc will be variable as this entire platform contains User Created Content - very little Optimized/Made by the Company. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 2 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: No, I do not underestimate such a thing. I simply care so little at this point that I can barely care any less. I am not as involved in such things myself and still understand just how out of date those specs are. Well at least you care just enough to stop by and let us know you don't care... so there's still a smidgeon of care in there somewhere!? 3 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: the best they can give is a guess/estimation for those specs I'll take a guess made in the last 12 months over one made 20 years ago. Of course defining minimum requirements for something like SL is far more difficult than it is for traditional games that aren't comprised entirely of user generated content, and they're more than welcome to put that disclaimer at the top of the page in big bold letters if it will make them feel better. But they don't get to just not bother because it's "too hard" when their customers have spent years navigating the convoluted process of content creation that's primarily a product of their half-assed feature implementations. If we hadn't bothered because it was "too hard" then SL wouldn't even exist so I don't see why they should get to skip doing their part just because it's not easy. Honestly the "off the top of your head" specs you just posted would be an improvement on what's there currently, and it's been how long since they last updated that page? I just don't see any reasonable justification for that sort of neglect. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeathcliffMontague Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 8 hours ago, Rufferta Mainlander said: I updated to the new SL viewer and the changes seem to have helped. One problem was that the interface windows were all so big I could hardly see the screen. I found the answer to shrinking them here. Fingers crossed. Yeah, what's the deal with this, LL? ;) We only need the 50 % of the left half, as it is in any TPV I use. I need this sceen space for my speedometer 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeathcliffMontague Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: No, Amelia, 99% of us had no idea because we're too busy doing things in-world to pay attention to our GPU usage.? I guess some are just too obsessed with comparing SL to other "games". (Runs and ducks for cover) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 26 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said: Well at least you care just enough to stop by and let us know you don't care... so there's still a smidgeon of care in there somewhere!? I think he cares enough about the plight of those with low-end PC's and spec confusion to remain in good standing on the forum. Yes, giving him a star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeromFranzic Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 19 minutes ago, HeathcliffMontague said: Yeah, what's the deal with this, LL? ;) We only need the 50 % of the left half, as it is in any TPV I use. I need this sceen space for my speedometer And some of those TPV's also have the dutch angle buttons in their half sized controls! Now including FS's current alphas...!!! IJS. *steps away to do some dutch angle spins* 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaharazad Humphreys Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 As much as I would like to believe LL "cares", considering their typical laissez-faire approach I feel it's more likely that their sudden interest is due to creator complaints. I think they desperately want to pacify the elite creator class who no doubt saw their profits plummeting (i.e., because nobody can buy the stuff in their stores when everything looks like a gray blob). Ever since the introduction of mesh, it has no longer been "Your World, Your Imagination". LL relies on a small contingent of pro-level designers to create most everything. The rest of us have been relegated to mere consumers of that curated content. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discussionbot Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 3 hours ago, Solar Legion said: Dear lord ... The Specificatons Page has always been a joke. Always. Stop quoting it. Stop pretending it is meaningful Do you also do this with everything else that Linden Lab published or just selectively? Have the TOS been a joke too and not really meaningful enough to be followed? 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted August 25 Author Share Posted August 25 3 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said: This is why I suspect that part of the reason they were eager to get everyone on PBR is so that all those people posting pictures on flickr, social media, etc. would be posting things that showed SL in a more "favourable" light. I continue to be mystified why LL doesn't take better advantage of some of the amazing photography available in SL. I don't mean the kind of stuff I produce, which is heavily edited and not really intended to "showcase" the platform, but there are some wonderful photographers doing landscapes in particular who are producing well-composed and beautifully lit shots that would accomplish just that. They really should have a contest, with, you know, prizes or something, for pics that highlight SL's new PBR look, with the understanding that said pics can be used for promotion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted August 25 Author Share Posted August 25 1 hour ago, Shaharazad Humphreys said: As much as I would like to believe LL "cares", considering their typical laissez-faire approach I feel it's more likely that their sudden interest is due to creator complaints. I think they desperately want to pacify the elite creator class who no doubt saw their profits plummeting (i.e., because nobody can buy the stuff in their stores when everything looks like a gray blob). It's an interesting thought, but I haven't heard any rumblings from creators about this, other than the occasional comment that, right now, producing PBR textures with backup Blinn-Phong maps is an annoying amount of extra work. Given the latter, I'd have thought most creators would prefer we not put off a full transition, but rather leap head first into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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