Ingrid Ingersoll Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) 3 hours ago, Codex Alpha said: Sansar worked 'out of the box'... No user had to worry about such things... and even many who said they could run Sansar (a newer platform) when they couldn't run SL to satisfaction. Amazing. I love sansar. I feel like there should be a sticky somewhere with settings recommendations for people who own average or crap pc's. I took a lot of the tips posted from the 47 PBR threads recently and my very average pc seems to be OK with it. Edited July 10 by Ingrid Ingersoll 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiyumei Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 You can download a viewer that doesn't support PBR or version of it that doesn't yet support it. While I'm not familiar which versions of Firestorm began supporting PBR(I guess you can change in their change log), every version of Black Dragon for example before 5.0 doesn't support it. PBR textures will display for you like regular textures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Aiyumei said: You can download a viewer that doesn't support PBR or version of it that doesn't yet support it. While I'm not familiar which versions of Firestorm began supporting PBR(I guess you can change in their change log), every version of Black Dragon for example before 5.0 doesn't support it. PBR textures will display for you like regular textures. 6.6.17 is the last version that doesn't have PBR. Edited July 10 by BriannaLovey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeFlossDaily Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 Them: Surely you have the money to buy a new super PC, Flossy. Don't lie to me. PBR is the future. Me: I can't even render your DoS attack avatar. What makes you think I can render it in PBR. Them: Resistance is futile. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestofu Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 Second Life needs PBR if it is to remain the dominant avatar-based social platform. Today, Second Life faces challenges with respect to user growth. Without PBR, converting new users might become more challenging. Users today seek immersive experiences with cutting-edge graphics, and compared to potential competitors, Second Life's visuals would feel outdated without PBR. It's important to acknowledge that Linden Lab operates with a financial objective of maintaining Second Life's profitability. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) 5 minutes ago, lovestofu said: Second Life needs PBR if it is to remain the dominant avatar-based social platform. Today, Second Life faces challenges with respect to user growth. Without PBR, converting new users might become more challenging. Users today seek immersive experiences with cutting-edge graphics, and compared to potential competitors, Second Life's visuals would feel outdated without PBR. It's important to acknowledge that Linden Lab operates with a financial objective of maintaining Second Life's profitability. It just doesn't make any sense that they would do this with their current OpenGL backend. They have already stated that they want to move to Vulkan at some point, which is much more efficient and would not be as much of a problem for older hardware. Why not work on that first before forcing everyone to use this? Sure, doing now gets them to see the shinies faster, but once they move to Vulkan it will mean re-doing a whole lot of work anyways. Edited July 10 by BriannaLovey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestofu Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 Well, shipping PBR first then Vulkan later makes sense given Second Life's user growth situation. Even if moving to Vulkan after shipping PBR requires extra work, launching PBR first injects fresh visual appeal to attract new users and invigorates current users. On top of that, it sends a strong signal to the market that Second Life is an actively developed, modern platform. These are benefits that are more valuable now than later. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 1 minute ago, lovestofu said: launching PBR first [...] invigorates current users It sure has. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fauve Aeon Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 So, I hate to ask but…if people derender PBR textured things - what happens to the clothing items? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 9 minutes ago, Fauve Aeon said: So, I hate to ask but…if people derender PBR textured things - what happens to the clothing items? They likely get derendered too if they are mesh and don't have a fallback texture. Depends on the implementation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 The way I understood PBR is that it is for predominantly static content and is not intended for avatar clothing as the reflection probes wouldn't work well with an avatar that is moving around. Am I misunderstanding that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: The way I understood PBR is that it is for predominantly static content and is not intended for avatar clothing as the reflection probes wouldn't work well with an avatar that is moving around. Am I misunderstanding that? PBR is fine for avatars (and is even coming to the baking service eventually*), but they shouldn't try to carry around their own reflection probes. _______________ *Funny story about the current move to update the baking service to 2K textures. Found out at yesterday's Simulator User Group that this is going to involve more than the expected effort because the whole baking service is based on an ancient Linux fork, to be updated. Tech debt is so sneaky. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 6 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: PBR is fine for avatars (and is even coming to the baking service eventually*), but they shouldn't try to carry around their own reflection probes. Aren't the reflection probes necessary for the supposed PBR advantages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 11 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Aren't the reflection probes necessary for the supposed PBR advantages? Nope. They're useful for adjusting the way ambient lighting works in a scene (depending on how the local EEP is set), and define the bounds of indoor reflections if you look closely at what's reflected, but also there are automatically placed reflection probes scattered around every (ground level) scene. (Mirror probes, though, are necessary to get planar mirrors to work right.) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 32 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Aren't the reflection probes necessary for the supposed PBR advantages? The new system has also added "automatic reflection probes" to each region as well. These can't be adjusted or moved, and are, from what I gather, somewhat imperfect, but they ensure that shiny PBR materials produce "reflections" wherever they are, regardless of the absence of a manually produced reflection probe. Which is why you don't need your own personal reflection probe attachment. (And you'll wreak havoc if you try to wear one.) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristy Aurelia Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 10 hours ago, Caitlin Tobias said: In the SL Viewer you can disable BPR, it will make the object invisible - not just the texture. Advanced Menu, rendering types, untick BPR You do realise that to have this option, you need a PBR viewer? And if you have PBR viewer, stuff is not white blobs, making the whole derender PBR nonsense invalid. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristy Aurelia Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Aren't the reflection probes necessary for the supposed PBR advantages? Yes, but as someone mentioned, there are auto probes. I've written a guide explaining reflection probes, you can find it here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18ut5mR_S9sAYDwWvFHNpRqrJ31y2hpqVSZHd8sbeua4 Edited July 10 by Kristy Aurelia 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fauve Aeon Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 3 minutes ago, Kristy Aurelia said: You do realise that to have this option, you need a PBR viewer? And if you have PBR viewer, stuff is not white blobs, making the whole derender PBR nonsense invalid. Look at you with your logic n stuff! 😉 I was wondering if anyone was going to say the quiet part out loud. lights and shadows and all of the dimension looks so much better than the simulated shadow and highlight baking we once had to make due with. I think this is a huge improvement already and I can’t wait to see what comes of it in the next year or so. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 18 minutes ago, Kristy Aurelia said: Yes, but as someone mentioned, there are auto probes. I've written a guide explaining reflection probes, you can find it here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18ut5mR_S9sAYDwWvFHNpRqrJ31y2hpqVSZHd8sbeua4 Not much good when I live in a skybox and most of the clubs I attend are 1000+ meters. Do they intend to do something with them higher then ground level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristy Aurelia Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 9 minutes ago, Fauve Aeon said: Look at you with your logic n stuff! 😉 I was wondering if anyone was going to say the quiet part out loud. lights and shadows and all of the dimension looks so much better than the simulated shadow and highlight baking we once had to make due with. I think this is a huge improvement already and I can’t wait to see what comes of it in the next year or so. I've been avoiding forums recently, hoping that time will settle things down and progress us through the stages of: Denial - I use firestorm that doesn't support PBR, therefore it doesn't exist even if it was out for 8+ months Anger - PBR runs bad looks terrible Bargaining - please add option to disable PBR/ALM Depression - SL ruined, I guess I'm stuck with white stuff... Acceptance - Oh actually I've looked into PBR and actually tried it and it looks great But sometimes I see something that just make me unable to stop myself from commenting on... 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristy Aurelia Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Not much good when I live in a skybox and most of the clubs I attend are 1000+ meters. Do they intend to do something with them higher then ground level? Auto probes are placed at all heights as long as there are objects nearby, manual probes can be placed anywhere. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fauve Aeon Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Not much good when I live in a skybox and most of the clubs I attend are 1000+ meters. Do they intend to do something with them higher then ground level? Anyone can make one for more simple spaces and set it, just rez a cube, stretch it and click a few checkboxes, fiddle a bit until it starts looking right. Watch a quick video and try it out. Thanks to Zanibar Pixelbottom for making their videos. Edited July 10 by Fauve Aeon Spelling 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 Just now, Kristy Aurelia said: Auto probes are placed at all heights as long as there are objects nearby, manual probes can be placed anywhere. That's interesting. Henri corrected me a while back, saying there aren't reflection probes in skyboxes unless you put them there yourself. This raises two questions: Reflection probes are mostly just about controlling the scope of reflections, right? I mean, the Ambiance setting can have an effect on lighting, too, but it's not as if glTF Materials only work at all where there are reflection probes in the vicinity. I saw an image a few weeks ago of somebody showing the locations of auto-generated reflection probes. Where's the control to turn on those indicators? (I know how to highlight the reflection probe volumes, but not how to show the locations with the highlighted beacon-like indicators.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said: Reflection probes are mostly just about controlling the scope of reflections, right? I mean, the Ambiance setting can have an effect on lighting, too, but it's not as if glTF Materials only work at all where there are reflection probes in the vicinity. Ok, I know that mirrors have their own probes, but what is reflected in them is a function of the probe within which they sit. Surely a mirror that is not in a manually produced probe would only be able to reflect the surroundings (which it does) if there was not an auto probe for it draw upon? I ask because I've used mirrors high in the sky, and in the absence of a manually created probe. And they still reflect the surroundings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristy Aurelia Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: That's interesting. Henri corrected me a while back, saying there aren't reflection probes in skyboxes unless you put them there yourself. This raises two questions: Reflection probes are mostly just about controlling the scope of reflections, right? I mean, the Ambiance setting can have an effect on lighting, too, but it's not as if glTF Materials only work at all where there are reflection probes in the vicinity. I saw an image a few weeks ago of somebody showing the locations of auto-generated reflection probes. Where's the control to turn on those indicators? (I know how to highlight the reflection probe volumes, but not how to show the locations with the highlighted beacon-like indicators.) There is an option to show reflection probes in render metadata section I think, I'm not logged in right now so can't tell the you exactly. It shows them as bunch of lines, where they all join there's an auto probe there. There is no way to actually interact with them. The viewer generates the auto-probes, not the simulator, so maybe Henri's viewer does not? (If we're thinking of the same person) Auto probes on terrain height level are placed in a grid, and higher up, in a kind of random arrangement near stuff. Edit - I logged in: Setting is under Developer -> render Metadata -> Reflection probes And here's someone's skybox 3000 units up: Edited July 10 by Kristy Aurelia 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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