Arielle Popstar Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 10 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said: You literally do not have to buy anything in SL. Keeping up with the Jones is a choice. Creators drive the platform. Without content, what is there to do? No, users and consumers drive the platform, not creators. No one buying the creators leave but the residents stay. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmeliaJ08 Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 5 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said: Why don't you set up a charity to buy people hardware then? No? Opinion discarded, I will proceed with my current plans to build a base of users large enough to halt the demand for PBR products. Well that's dumb. Go fight the good fight though, hell you should be raging against products with materials! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 3 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said: Why don't you set up a charity to buy people hardware then? No? Opinion discarded, I will proceed with my current plans to build a base of users large enough to halt the demand for PBR products. This reminds me of a time many years ago, a resident had set up a region to protest the introduction of mesh, it had banners and people with protest signs and everything. Of course, the sim no longer exists today. The last time I visited it, the region appeared to be filled with alts. The owner seemed to have gone somewhat schizophrenic, and presented me with a 'certificate' from the US presidency that the people in the sim were all real, to prove to me that there were real people who still cared. I hope that person is doing better today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 7 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said: Why don't you set up a charity to buy people hardware then? No? You know, both myself and friends have bought each other hardware before. It's not as crazy as you make it out to be. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 15 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said: I haven't been around for a big sky is falling moment in awhile. It is something to see. Are there genuine concerns? Yes. Is it also overblown? Absolutely. The sky falls because the Lab continually pulls it down with the decisions it makes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said: I make observations and from those spring assumptions. Like the fact that they have a devil of time holding on to new users. Why even talk about them as the Lab has completely failed in attracting and keeping new users. There is a reason for that and it isn't because SL isn't pretty enough. EEP was a waste of time as likely overall PBR will be, aside from the need for better hardware. Once LL puts some focus on a better and more up to date with the end user in mind then it has been, they might actually start being able to hold onto new users. Things like a more intuitive Inventory, graphical even. An undo button to revert to the last thing worn. What platform out there has no freaking undo (Ctrl+Z) button for when dressing and undressing? The SL viewer is old because it is still stuck in a pre millenial mode and is barely past MS-Dos, never mind gluing on a prettier graphics engine. People don't come here because we have a large creator base but for the stuff they could do and in that way, SL is failing as it is no further ahead for the end user then it was 20 years ago. What platform does have undo for changing clothes? Also, be real. Most people come to SL to play Barbies, own nice things, and pixel bump. It is not that high brow. That stuff requires - wait for it - creators. SL has a healthy economy because people buy stuff constantly, and creators create because there is demand. Change keeps happening. I would love to see some improvements to usability as well. We desperately need tags in inventory and better search there. They did as visual features to inventory now, but the UI is a bit half assed so people don't use it much. It is very useful though, especially if creators bother to embed images in their items. The mobile development is also focused on going where users increasingly are. SL is competing with freaking Roblox, for better or worse. Usage has changed. SL also competes for attention with games with ever improving graphics. There is a lot that constantly needs to be done to improve SL. It is a moving target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modulated Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 8 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said: Why don't you set up a charity to buy people hardware then? No? Opinion discarded, I will proceed with my current plans to build a base of users large enough to halt the demand for PBR products. Why should someone else foot the bill for your hardware? I don't understand this mindset, just because you can buy pc hardware doesn't mean you're wealthy or even well off for that matter. I have been saying from the beginning that I had hoped people on lower end machines wouldn't be left behind, but I am not running anything. The new requirements are way above potato grade, and that's just how it is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 Just now, Cristiano Midnight said: To what end? They are not going to rollback PBR, even if no products use PBR materials (which spoiler alert - they already do). Did you try to boycott EEP too? No, EEP didn't impose crippling performance penalties on my hardware. Change can be good if the positives outweigh the negatives (like the upcoming transition from vivox to WebRTC; reducing dependency on proprietary software is always a good thing.) PBR though, I just don't see how the benefits outweigh the costs. Too many people will be negatively affected by this. Even if people still end up using PBR in their stuff, there are things that can be done to make it visible to non-PBR viewers. As someone familiar with viewer development, I can say that it is possible to implement workarounds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said: The sky falls because the Lab continually pulls it down with the decisions it makes. Arielle, there have been more than I can count over the past 21 years. Yet SL persists. This too shall pass. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said: Arielle, there have been more than I can count over the past 21 years. Yet SL persists. This too shall pass. And as I've said in past and will continue to point out in the future, SL continues on in spite of itself, not because of itself. If not for the extremely user base, bordering on the obsessive, SL would fail in a heartbeat Edited June 22 by Arielle Popstar grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 1 minute ago, Modulated said: Why should someone else foot the bill for your hardware? I don't understand this mindset, just because you can buy pc hardware doesn't mean you're wealthy or even well off for that matter. I have been saying from the beginning that I had hoped people on lower end machines wouldn't be left behind, but I am not running anything. The new requirements are way above potato grade, and that's just how it is. The new requirements only apply to viewers that don't have the older rendering engine. Only one viewer still has it (Cool VL Viewer as I have said many times,) but I suspect it will be forked later to create a viewer more like Firestorm but without the PBR requirement. If nobody else does it, I will do it myself once I am more confident in my abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cackle Amore Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 2 hours ago, Codex Alpha said: Is the blue haze on everything my problem (because SL suggest following an ACES color workflow LMAO - yeah okay let me retool when Unity and Unreal expect RGB input anyway), or is that SL's sky texture making everything look drab. The SPC/GLS still looks good (better) for now though That's likely the area you're in not having a reflection probe set up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 8 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: You know, both myself and friends have bought each other hardware before. It's not as crazy as you make it out to be. I wasn't being entirely serious about that. But it is stupid to arbitrarily raise requirements and expect people to not push back in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modulated Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 1 minute ago, BriannaLovey said: The new requirements only apply to viewers that don't have the older rendering engine. Only one viewer still has it (Cool VL Viewer as I have said many times,) but I suspect it will be forked later to create a viewer more like Firestorm but without the PBR requirement. If nobody else does it, I will do it myself once I am more confident in my abilities. I suspect you'll be waiting for a long time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 2 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said: No, EEP didn't impose crippling performance penalties on my hardware. Change can be good if the positives outweigh the negatives (like the upcoming transition from vivox to WebRTC; reducing dependency on proprietary software is always a good thing.) PBR though, I just don't see how the benefits outweigh the costs. Too many people will be negatively affected by this. Even if people still end up using PBR in their stuff, there are things that can be done to make it visible to non-PBR viewers. As someone familiar with viewer development, I can say that it is possible to implement workarounds. I understand that mindset, but it is a bit missing the forest for the trees. SL has never been well optimized - it still can bring 4090s to its knees at times. Architectural changes are needed to continue to improve the platform. The benefits may not be immediately apparent, but this was not undertaken lightly or on a whim. There are things that can be done to mitigate the performance hits - hell, some people actually have improved performance, myself included. It is now the new normal. I hope LL continues to improve the efficiency to help it perform better on a wide variety of hardware, and that third party viewers can also help provide options for users on differing levels of machines. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 1 minute ago, Modulated said: I suspect you'll be waiting for a long time. Then I will do it myself. UI editing is the least hard thing to do compared to other stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: And as I've said in past and will continue to point out in the future, SL continues on in spite of itself, not because of itself. If not for the extremely user base, bordering on the obsessive, SL would fail in a heartbeat Agreed. It is a miracle sometimes that it is still around, let alone semi-flourishing (first life shutting down in 2020 was a boon to SL that has somewhat persisted). My lifetime account purchase in 2003 that was a gamble at the time was quite a steal in hindsight lol. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 (edited) 2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said: What did you just say?! I don't know what that means. I'm not sure if you're being facetious or not? Blinn-Phong materials use three different maps: diffuse (basic texture + usually an AO for baked-in shadow), normal (for bumpiness), and spectral (for shine). PBR uses upwards of seven, packed into four material maps for use in SL. But you don't need to use all of those, and in fact pretty rarely will. You can, in fact, "get away" with using just a "base colour" map (which is like diffuse, but without the baked-in shadow) and, if you want, a normal (to give it "bumpy depth"). In other words, pretty much what you might use in a legacy object for texture. You CAN also even use the spectral map from a legacy texture set for roughness, but there you start to run into problems because these are rendered differently in PBR: at the very least, you'll want to "tint" the spectral lighter to increase the shine (rough maps are a lot "lighter" than spectral ones). (The techies among us will now scream in horror because -- and they're quite right -- you shouldn't do these things with PBR, but they are easy cheats if you can't be bothered making your own PBR maps or don't have these at hand.) 2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said: No they are not new and just point out the suicidal path the Lindens have been on for a long time. They ignore what would make it easier to create inworld opting instead for the most difficult choices that less and less amateurs are willing or able to afford. The only real solution to this would be the creation of in-world tools for making mesh (and optimizing and texturing it), which is a non-trivial task. I'd love to see it, but it's not going to happen. Edited June 22 by Scylla Rhiadra Mixed up stuff on spectral/roughness distinction 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 5 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said: first life shutting down in 2020 that is a funny way to describe what happened that year. I like it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicDelMoro Posted June 22 Author Share Posted June 22 The smart geeks here refuse to see that the gamers community mocks SL, they treat SL like some kind of zombie that still roams the Internet... It's sad to say it but that's what I've seen out there. If LL by some miracle simplified SL as much as possible, it would still be a complicated metaverse. Let's try to be honest and admit it: we are abnormal beings for playing SL.... there is something masochistic about staying on this platform 😝 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: I'm not sure if you're being facetious or not? Blinn-Phong materials use three different maps: diffuse (basic texture + usually an AO for baked-in shadow), normal (for bumpiness), and spectral (for shine). PBR uses upwards of seven, packed into four material maps for use in SL. But you don't need to use all of those, and in fact pretty rarely will. You can, in fact, "get away" with using just a "base colour" map (which is like diffuse, but without the baked-in shadow) and, if you want, a normal (to give it "bumpy depth"). In other words, pretty much what you might use in a legacy object for texture. You CAN also even use the spectral map from a legacy texture set for roughness, but there you start to run into problems because these are rendered differently in PBR: at the very least, you'll want to "tint" the spectral lighter to increase the shine (rough maps are a lot "lighter" than spectral ones). (The techies among us will now scream in horror because -- and they're quite right -- you shouldn't do these things with PBR, but they are easy cheats if you can't be bothered making your own PBR maps or don't have these at hand.) The only real solution to this would be the creation of in-world tools for making mesh (and optimizing and texturing it), which is a non-trivial task. I'd love to see it, but it's not going to happen. Hypothetically it would be easy (easier) to implement a "convert to mesh" button for prim-based objects, since DAE export for prims already exists. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: The only real solution to this would be the creation of in-world tools for making mesh (and optimizing and texturing it), which is a non-trivial task. I'd love to see it, but it's not going to happen. I would absolutely kill to have the building tools they have in The Sims 4. Aside from making my sims do it with each other all the time (yay Wicked Whims mod), I spend all of my time building stuff. A well designed system would allow content creators to create assets for it that plug into it and end users could make their own houses and things. Granted, home builders would not like it, but still, it would be nice to have. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 Just now, BriannaLovey said: Hypothetically it would be easy (easier) to implement a "convert to mesh" button for prim-based objects, since DAE export for prims already exists. There are commercial products that do this now, I think, but I don't know how well they work, or optimize? I also don't know if you can map them? But I haven't tried this, so I don't really know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 3 minutes ago, RicDelMoro said: The smart geeks here refuse to see that the gamers community mocks SL, they treat SL like some kind of zombie that still roams the Internet... It's sad to say it but that's what I've seen out there. If LL by some miracle simplified SL as much as possible, it would still be a complicated metaverse. Let's try to be honest and admit it: we are abnormal beings for playing SL.... there is something masochistic about staying on this platform 😝 This smart geek doesn't fail to see that. However, there is also a pretty large overlap between gamers and SL users as well, so it is not either or. There is a certain masochism to what we put up with in terms of complexity in SL, but I feel ultimately the experience is worth it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ina Fairport Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 EEEEKKK..... Yes , that was my first reaction after logging in just after I had installed the last FS update. This last update has changed my SL dramatically. So ugly...!!! I tried several settings but it all looks horrible. FPS is not even bad but the graphics are so bad. My PC is 11 years old and SL always looked good. Untill today... I am not often online anymore and I won't update my PC only for SL. This means a definite farewell. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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