Is Lindenlab choosing a doomed path for SL ? Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

[Nagachief Darkstone]

19 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Semi-transparent faces are broken:

ALM 80% transparency cube, opaque textures (black letters on white background):

Same cube, PBR (also used LL's latest release viewer, so that no one comes and pretends it's my viewer's fault):

 

But this is just one example of many other issues, the worst such issues being with shiny faces, that look blue, even with the few HACKED (black ambient light, white blue horizon !) ”PBR-aware” environments settings.

And no, saying ”but you just need a reflection probe !” is NOT acceptable !

99.9% of SL is without any reflection probes (e.g. mainland builds), and therefore renders badly with PBR !

Automatic probes shall solve such issues, but are currently a total joke.

 

Other unacceptable issues:

• Bogus object occlusions (entire parts of builds do not render until you run into them or walk on them, and no the latest ”fix” that disables code working perfectly in forward and ALM modes, does not fix the issue).
• Ugly water (unrealistic color), without any reflection in it beside sky, and SSR broken beyond repair, not showing any reflection as it should, but instead causing moires on water surface.

This is expected behavior of going to linear blending of alpha. You could make an argument for only applying linear blending to PBR content, but you do risk slowing down the viewer with complicating the shader further.

[stlshayne]

Is there anything in the TOS that states if SL makes your computer violently explode you cannot sue for a new one? Maybe there's a work-around here for the rare people that have such an issue.

Edited June 25 by stlshayne

[Paul Hexem]

15 minutes ago, Omegaslayer said:

I wonder if it's something wrong in the base code, people with good computers shouldn't be having issues and yet they are. 

If it were, many more of us would be having issues.

4 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

SL in theory should be as inclusive to both as it can be.  But that also means being vastly more communicative about certain features

Of everything, this is the only real, valid complaint that keeps coming up.

Unfortunately it's offset by the fact that LL has always been terrible at communication. We, as users, have got to learn to step up and take some of our own initiative.

[brodiac90]

8 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

And maybe they do develop this, maybe they do introduce a new version of LL and even Firestorm where PBR has a Non-PBR function that has some of the old rendering available. With the caveat, that that will go away in a couple of years as they slowly transition to full PBR.

My experience with the recent child avatar TOS changes has taught me the following. 

1) LL are poor at forseeing problems which leads to poor execution. 

2) They do not necessarily communicate in the best way. 

3) They are slow to react but when they do react they do listen. 

4) They are willing to change things and adjust if there is a good argument for it. 

So I think eventually they will improve how PBR is implemented but it won't be a quick or anxiety free experience. 

Lastly, maybe the people affected will have more empathy with child avatars. It's not nice when your entire world changes through no fault of your own is it? 

Edited June 25 by brodiac90

[Henri Beauchamp]

2 minutes ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

This is expected behavior

LOL !

It's a BUG: when it BREAKS existing contents, it CANNOT be ”expected behaviour” !

[Nagachief Darkstone]

5 minutes ago, stlshayne said:

Is there anything in the TOS that states if SL makes your computer violently explode you cannot sue for a new one? Maybe there's a work-around here for the rare people that have such an issue.

Terms of Service (lindenlab.com) Section 9

3 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

LOL !

It's a BUG: when it BREAKS existing contents, it CANNOT be ”expected behaviour” !

The decision was likely made that this was an acceptable content breakage to avoid further reducing performance with specalized shaders for specgloss content.

Edited June 25 by Nagachief Darkstone

[Arielle Popstar]

29 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Yes. Intentionally. Because...

Combining all the posts, there's probably 50 pages of the same thing being rehashed, including lies and misinformation, about something we've been dealing with since ALM was introduced.

People have had over a decade to save up for a GTX 1050, something you can now get for less than 150 USD brand new. Much less if you put any effort into it at all. People, including myself, have been offering for years to help people get their hands on an ALM capable computer for super cheap. Only one person in all that time has taken me up on the offer, and they're currently enjoying the update.

So, when the users that couldn't be bothered come on to the forums to complain, yes. I'm going to be a jerk to them.

I have a machine and card capable of using PBR but I simply don't want to because it raises the temperature 20C and decreases the FPS 30% in general with is of no benefit or use. So why should I bother? Maybe down the road the eye candy will be worthwhile but currently not. When PBR shows a benefit I will relook at it. Meantime if the Lab and FS want a better acceptance they should make sure that it looks good on first run instead of the mess it is that requires tweaking by most to even see or not be overpowered by the brightness.

When I buy a new car or had the dealer do some work on it to enhance it, I don't expect that I will need to do a bunch of fixing to get it running. That is what LL and FS have given us, updated releases that need work to make it look ok, if that is even possible which for some, it is not.

[Paul Hexem]

3 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

LOL !

It's a BUG: when it BREAKS existing contents, it CANNOT be ”expected behaviour” !

I'm not sure that's true.

Invisiprims not working anymore is absolutely expected behavior, and that breaks existing content.

[Henri Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, Nagachief Darkstone said:

The decision was likely made that this was an acceptable content breakage

Well, that decision is therefore... unacceptable ! 🤣

[Ina Fairport]

I am tired of all this. I don't read it anymore.
After trying the new viewer and trying to get a nice looking SL I went back to the previous version. 
I will be sailing and making pictures as long as I can.



 

[Irina Forwzy]

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think that this is very much LL's attitude: rip off the band aid right away.

Pretty much every part of this rollout has been intended to force PBR on the grid -- they want this to happen, and the sooner the better, possibly because their future developments rely upon a universal use of forward rendering?

More than likely the case.  Maybe I'm software jaded by countless bureaucratic mishaps in my real life projects including a three month migration into a completely new software package (actually two since both systems were updating at the same time).  

Companies start projects too late at times due to funding, then try to push impossible deadlines to production forcing misses when it comes to everything from requirements, development, system testing, user acceptance testing, and deployment training.  I've been there, done that.

In my eyes, LL should have started PBR earlier. And their Beta testing should have been advertised much earlier.  They should have also found a way of trying to pull as many diverse Hardware users possible within the Beta environment. This way they can iron out the bigger kinks and earlier in the game.  While some are in SL university, others aren't so LL  should have used means to communicate Beta to a broader audience; especially in these world breaking upgrades.

Add vastly more communication throughout the integration and eventually create a survival and maybe a buoy for those that do not have the best rigs in the world.

Look, when I'm reading that newer PCs are having issues with bare performance of PBR that is a problem.  I expect it from a PC that's 6-10 years old, not one that's 1 year old and had above minimum requirements into this game.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Paul Hexem said:

5 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

LOL !

It's a BUG: when it BREAKS existing contents, it CANNOT be ”expected behaviour” !

I'm not sure that's true.

Invisiprims not working anymore is absolutely expected behavior, and that breaks existing content.

Yeah, at this point we DO expect things to look different - because they "do look different". 

I think @Nagachief Darkstone's explanation sounds like the type of specific technical explanation that we may get from LL, should LL's feet be put to the fire on "but WHY does it look different"?  Of course, since @Henri Beauchamp's own viewer allows different solutions, he has different solutions / fixes available.

 

[Dorientje Woller]

8 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

LOL !

It's a BUG: when it BREAKS existing contents, it CANNOT be ”expected behaviour” !

I see your are using an nVidea card ... are you using the full color spectrum of it? By default those cards, and with each update of the drivers, are set on a limited color pallete. Go to your nVidia Configuration Panel -> tab change resolution -> scroll down to: Apply following settings -> check the nVidia-color settings -> select with Dynamic Range Input: "Complete"

Edited June 25 by Dorientje Woller

[Henri Beauchamp]

6 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Invisiprims not working anymore is absolutely expected behavior, and that breaks existing content.

Oh, yes, thank you: I forgot about that one too... Yes, invisprims do still have legit usages (e.g. to hide water inside the hull of a boat or submarine, even if they do have render glitches and won't work with non-mesh avatars, since they would hide them), and without an alternative to replace them...

BTW, SL sailors are very badly impacted by PBR: ugly water, semi-transparent sails that now look almost opaque, hulls with water inside (invisiprims issue), a PBR ”midday” setting with fixed clouds, etc...

Edited June 25 by Henri Beauchamp

[Paul Hexem]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

When I buy a new car or had the dealer do some work on it to enhance it, I don't expect that I will need to do a bunch of fixing to get it running. That is what LL and FS have given us, updated releases that need work to make it look ok, if that is even possible which for some, it is not.

You do have to adjust the seat. The mirrors. Stay on top of maintenance and upkeep.

PBR is the same. Gonna have to adjust your settings a little. Once you do, it'll be fine. Several people in several threads have offered to help if you need guidance.

[Irina Forwzy]

4 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Use World- Enviroment- and set it to "Midday". Not "Midday Legacy".

It looks surprisingly fine. Better than Midday before PBR.

If you have bought Battlescars enviroment packs, they have included PBR from February 2024, and also updated some packs from 2023.

They are named "PBR for Black Dragon and Alchemy" since they were made before Firestorm released a PBR viewer, but they look fine in the Default SL viewer and Firestorm. "- BATTLESCARS WL - CLOUDS - COMMERCIAL NATURE 4.0 ( EEP ) (PBR)" has some good, light ones.

The items I had in PBR were still horribly dark for me.  Any windlight i chose would automatically shift within about 2 seconds to just a dark aesthetic. As if I was in night mode. 

It was odd.  Other than that, the world looked slightly more saturated in color even in old pieces when I compared the old and new viewer side by side.

[brodiac90]

1 minute ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Oh, yes, thank you: I forgot about that one too... Yes, invisprims do still have legit usages (e.g. to hide water inside the hull of a boat or submarine, even if they do have render glitches and won't work with non-mesh avatars, since they would hide them), and without an alternative to replace them...

BTW, SL sailors are very badly impacted by PBR: ugly water, semi-transparent sails that now look almost opaque, hulls with water inside (invisiprims issue), etc...

Just get the update though, Henri, and everything will be fine. 

Oh wait.... 🤔

[Irina Forwzy]

3 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Just had a thought, will pbr textures be used for skins? Will I soon see plywood avatars everywhere?

That will be even funnier that the box head and donut hole avatars I used to see before I finally installed a mesh capable viewer 😂

And they say SL doesn't keep getting better and better 😆

More than likely.  I am assuming Lelutka's future line of either heads or even head adaptations will have PBR enabled.

[stlshayne]

2 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

You do have to adjust the seat. The mirrors. Stay on top of maintenance and upkeep.

PBR is the same. Gonna have to adjust your settings a little. Once you do, it'll be fine. Several people in several threads have offered to help if you need guidance.

And the dealer "[doing work to] enhance it" in theory should be part of maintenance and upkeep. Gotta make sure it passes inspection. 

[Irina Forwzy]

3 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

I have been ”shouting” too, so I do sympathize !

I told them that PBR won't cut it for many SLer's ”weak” computers and that getting rid of the forward rendering mode was a bad idea. And I since demonstrated it with my dual renderer in my viewer.

Then I told them, countless times (at pretty much every meeting I attended), that PBR was not yet ready for release...

Finally I tried to contribute some fix to their mess (rejected, because gLTF 2 specs rule)...

This had the same effect as ”pisser dans un violon”, as we say in French (something akin to ”spit in the wind”, in English).

And now, we (are just starting to) see the result... 😵‍💫

Had they listened to people like us, they would have been more careful and thorough, and PBR would have been released (later, yes) in a good state that would have pleased 95% of the SLers, instead of pissing off 30% of them...

I'm so sad... 😢

Welcome to how we role with projects in this country.  This isn't the worst project I've seen developed. The problem with LL is that they want to chase an imaginary figure aka the new customer without thinking that some of the old customers are having bad enough issues that they may cut 10-20% of their revenue from their behind.

They could slow things down a bit and get both but they think too much in quarters and today rather than tomorrow (short-sightedness is our failure here).

[Henri Beauchamp]

7 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

I see your are using an nVidea card ... are you using the full color spectrum of it? By default those cards, and with each update of the drivers, are set on a limited color pallete. Go to your nVidia Configuration Panel -> tab change resolution -> scroll down to: Apply following settings -> check the nVidia-color settings -> select with Dynamic Range Input: ”Complete”

I have been using and programing computers for the past... wait... counting... 45 years... Do you really think that, if there was a way, I won't have found it already ?

And no, the drivers settings have strictly nothing to do with the issue at hand.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

PBR is the same. Gonna have to adjust your settings a little.

I brought something similar to this up when someone suggested they always use "Ultra" and I asked if they considered using "recommended settings"..

 

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, stlshayne said:

And the dealer "[doing work to] enhance it" in theory should be part of maintenance and upkeep. Gotta make sure it passes inspection. 

Oh yeah. There's no denying that LL dropped the ball here. Like I said elsewhere though, that's pretty standard for LL. We really should be used to it by now.

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Paul Hexem said:

You do have to adjust the seat. The mirrors. Stay on top of maintenance and upkeep.

PBR is the same. Gonna have to adjust your settings a little. Once you do, it'll be fine. Several people in several threads have offered to help if you need guidance.

This is way deeper to tweak and besides, when I get my car back from the dealer or mechanic, I expect the main system configurations to be the same. The only thing i should have to tweak are the enhanced features. In no way should I need to turn off options because they use too much power to allow the new feature to work.

I should not have to expect that enhanced features comes at the price of extra heat, increased power consumption and decreased performance in the sense of FPS. 

[Dorientje Woller]

Oh, there is another setting that improves the fps of nVidia cards, which isn't generally known: Go to the tab "3D Settings Management" -> Scroll till you see "Max Frame Speed", normally this is "off" by default -> put it on and select a frame speed of your own likings on the slider.

Edited June 25 by Dorientje Woller