Is Lindenlab choosing a doomed path for SL ? Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

[RicDelMoro]

[RicDelMoro]

I wasn't the one who put "doomed" in the title, I think it was a moderator, just to clarify

[Cristiano Midnight]

Just now, RicDelMoro said:

I wasn't the one who put "doomed" in the title, I think it was a moderator, just to clarify

It is better than your original poor choice.

[Theresa Tennyson]

20 minutes ago, Jase Devin said:

Exactly what I was talking about, looks like you have 38.8k posts, you fit the bill perfectly, thanks for contributing like I knew you would.

You seem to be really good about supplying numbers except for the ones that describe your computer and viewer settings.

[Jase Devin]

2 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

You seem to be really good about supplying numbers except for the ones that describe your computer and viewer settings.

What's yours?

[Theresa Tennyson]

Just now, Jase Devin said:

What's yours?

Second Life Release 7.1.9.9555137545 (64bit)
Release Notes

Second Life Server 2024-06-11.9458617693
Release Notes

CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4690K CPU @ 3.50GHz (3500.02 MHz)
Memory: 16335 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 10 64-bit (Build 19045.4529)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660/PCIe/SSE2

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 32.0.15.5585
OpenGL Version: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 555.85

Window size: 1600x837
Font Size Adjustment: 96pt
UI Scaling: 1
Draw distance: 128m
Bandwidth: 3000kbit/s
LOD factor: 2.5
Render quality: 4
Texture memory: 5198MB
Disk cache: Max size 1638.4 MB (100.0% used)

J2C Decoder Version: KDU v7.10.4
Audio Driver Version: FMOD Studio 2.02.20
Dullahan: 1.14.0.202310131404
  CEF: 118.4.1+g3dd6078+chromium-118.0.5993.54
  Chromium: 118.0.5993.54
LibVLC Version: 3.0.16
Voice Server Version: Not Connected
Packets Lost: 3/1,481 (0.2%)
June 25 2024 18:51:27

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Jase Devin said:

Now this is Serious 2009

Serious lack of understanding maybe.

 

1 hour ago, Jase Devin said:

We had  88, 220 – 29th March 2009 at 1:28pm SLT Concurrent Users

Irrelevant number, at least 40k of them were worthless people, who thought they could be RL millionaires by investing $50 in some parcel they bought from a scammer, by trying to out-scam the scammer when they sold it on to the next worthless person.. They failed to become millionaires without working, and 95% of them quit when land prices dropped below 12 ls /m for land that today sells for 0.6/m.

 

1 hour ago, Jase Devin said:

LL Company Revenue adjusted for inflation was $146,393,862.13

worthless made up number, LL isn't a public floated company, they don't publish their turnover or profit margin. Google has no more clue than you do, they just quote made up numbers from some internet idiot.

 

1 hour ago, Jase Devin said:

Concurrent Users Maximum: 43, 000 – 48, 000 (average)

And if you ACTUALLY looked at a GRAPH of concurrency, over the period from 2009 to 2024, you'd see a massive nosedive in late 2009, as 95% of the Worthless people all left. Then a gradual tailing off, from about 50k in 2010, to the 45k we see today.

 

1 hour ago, Jase Devin said:

2023 LL Revenue is $75,000,000

Another meaningless guess trawled up by google that you foolishly take as gospel.

 

1 hour ago, Jase Devin said:

What Happened?

Viewer 2 launched officially (out of beta) on 31st March 2010

And that's the EPIC FAIL.

Viewer 2 launching had exactly NOTHING to do with the very sudden departure in late 2009 of 30k of worthless people from the concurrency figures.

They left because the overblown property bubble, burst, and they realised they were not going to get rich without working thanks to SL, so they sodded off elsewhere, to found the Fake Money Crypto-Crap Cretin Cult.

Free money with no work, by owning a computer! Wooo Hooo!

 

1 hour ago, Jase Devin said:

numbers don't lie

But the people posting them on the internet often do. And google will happily repeat their lies to anyone who types in a question.

 

[Jase Devin]

7 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Serious lack of understanding maybe.

 

Irrelevant number, at least 40k of them were worthless people, who thought they could be RL millionaires by investing $50 in some parcel they bought from a scammer, by trying to out-scam the scammer when they sold it on to the next worthless person.. They failed to become millionaires without working, and 95% of them quit when land prices dropped below 12 ls /m for land that today sells for 0.6/m.

 

worthless made up number, LL isn't a public floated company, they don't publish their turnover or profit margin. Google has no more clue than you do, they just quote made up numbers from some internet idiot.

 

And if you ACTUALLY looked at a GRAPH of concurrency, over the period from 2009 to 2024, you'd see a massive nosedive in late 2009, as 95% of the Worthless people all left. Then a gradual tailing off, from about 50k in 2010, to the 45k we see today.

 

Another meaningless guess trawled up by google that you foolishly take as gospel.

 

And that's the EPIC FAIL.

Viewer 2 launching had exactly NOTHING to do with the very sudden departure in late 2009 of 30k of worthless people from the concurrency figures.

They left because the overblown property bubble, burst, and they realised they were not going to get rich without working thanks to SL, so they sodded off elsewhere, to found the Fake Money Crypto-Crap Cretin Cult.

Free money with no work, by owning a computer! Wooo Hooo!

 

But the people posting them on the internet often do. And google will happily repeat their lies to anyone who types in a question.

 

You are dead wrong those so called worthless people contributed to over half the company revenue. I think there is worthless people in this forum and probably contribute nothing to the game and or economy.

[Rowan Amore]

What no one has mentioned is the people who have quit in the past because their hardware was not up to the task yet have come back when they were able to upgrade.  People have mentioned it numerous times here.  I expect the same will happen now.  People will leave, people will upgrade when able, people will come back.  Such is life.

[Jase Devin]

23 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Second Life Release 7.1.9.9555137545 (64bit)
Release Notes

Second Life Server 2024-06-11.9458617693
Release Notes

CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4690K CPU @ 3.50GHz (3500.02 MHz)
Memory: 16335 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 10 64-bit (Build 19045.4529)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660/PCIe/SSE2

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 32.0.15.5585
OpenGL Version: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 555.85

Window size: 1600x837
Font Size Adjustment: 96pt
UI Scaling: 1
Draw distance: 128m
Bandwidth: 3000kbit/s
LOD factor: 2.5
Render quality: 4
Texture memory: 5198MB
Disk cache: Max size 1638.4 MB (100.0% used)

J2C Decoder Version: KDU v7.10.4
Audio Driver Version: FMOD Studio 2.02.20
Dullahan: 1.14.0.202310131404
  CEF: 118.4.1+g3dd6078+chromium-118.0.5993.54
  Chromium: 118.0.5993.54
LibVLC Version: 3.0.16
Voice Server Version: Not Connected
Packets Lost: 3/1,481 (0.2%)
June 25 2024 18:51:27

CPU: 13th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-13600KF (3494.4 MHz)
Memory: 65376 MB (Used: 2178 MB)
Concurrency: 20
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 11 64-bit (Build 22631.3737)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 8192 MB

So now we get to play ring around the rosy or what?

[Jase Devin]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

What no one has mentioned is the people who have quit in the past because their hardware was not up to the task yet have come back when they were able to upgrade.  People have mentioned it numerous times here.  I expect the same will happen now.  People will leave, people will upgrade when able, people will come back.  Such is life.

Good point, I hope so.

[BriannaLovey]

1 minute ago, Jase Devin said:

CPU: 13th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-13600KF (3494.4 MHz)
Memory: 65376 MB (Used: 2178 MB)
Concurrency: 20
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 11 64-bit (Build 22631.3737)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 8192 MB

So now we get to play ring around the rosy or what?

The only thing that might improve it is to whitelist the viewer's folder in Windows Security or your third-party antivirus if you have one. Otherwise you will be better off using another viewer.

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Jase Devin said:

CPU: 13th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-13600KF (3494.4 MHz)
Memory: 65376 MB (Used: 2178 MB)
Concurrency: 20
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 11 64-bit (Build 22631.3737)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 8192 MB

So now we get to play ring around the rosy or what?

You should be able to run the viewer perfectly fine.  What are your graphics settings?

[Jase Devin]

Another topic not touched on, is what have they done.

I have products that don't look right now because of this. Who knows how many complaints are going to come, as it is I have minimal IM's with my customers and because everything works and looks right.

They use to break scripting in their server updates what a nightmare, this will be that on steroids.

I don't even want to talk about my Custom EEP's ........butchered by this, just butchered.

[BriannaLovey]

5 minutes ago, Jase Devin said:

Another topic not touched on, is what have they done.

I have products that don't look right now because of this. Who knows how many complaints are going to come, as it is I have minimal IM's with my customers and because everything works and looks right.

They use to break scripting in their server updates what a nightmare, this will be that on steroids.

I don't even want to talk about my Custom EEP's ........butchered by this, just butchered.

See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

TL;DR: Breaking peoples stuff will often result in them paying more money to replace it. LL doesn't care if that money goes to you, or to another creator creating similar stuff as long as they get their cut, unfortunately.

Edited Wednesday at 02:29 AM by BriannaLovey

[Jase Devin]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You should be able to run the viewer perfectly fine.  What are your graphics settings?

I have run FS7 but at 30fps before any AV's are around. Thats going from 200fps same setting. But I frequently go to crowded places, I go places wear the Av's are super complex, places like The Chamber, you have 90 AV's all Highend. This Viewer would crash over half of them and the other half in about 30 minutes once the memory runs out and pagefile just pukes.

Thats the point, many say I can run it, sure..in your sim with no one around. This is a Social Game, I enjoy the Live Music, so unique to this game, the clubs the social aspect of it. But many are ok, runs ok, but it will positively not run ok in a social environment.

[Jase Devin]

5 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

TL;DR: Breaking peoples stuff will often result in them paying more money to replace it. LL doesn't care if that money goes to you, or to another creator creating similar stuff as long as they get their cut, unfortunately.

Good point breaking stuff = more sales

[BriannaLovey]

2 minutes ago, Jase Devin said:

Good point breaking stuff = more sales

I wonder if that is what PBR was meant to do all along...

[Clem Marques]

54 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

What no one has mentioned is the people who have quit in the past because their hardware was not up to the task yet have come back when they were able to upgrade.  People have mentioned it numerous times here.  I expect the same will happen now.  People will leave, people will upgrade when able, people will come back.  Such is life.

I can confirm this, it happened to me at one point. Eventually came back to SL when I got a better computer. I imagine the same will happen with some of the people who end up leaving due to their hardware's inability to run SL (with PBR) properly. Fingers crossed. It's tough.

Edited Wednesday at 03:10 AM by Clem Marques
Added the last 2 sentences

[Theresa Tennyson]

26 minutes ago, Jase Devin said:

I have run FS7 but at 30fps before any AV's are around. Thats going from 200fps same setting. But I frequently go to crowded places, I go places wear the Av's are super complex, places like The Chamber, you have 90 AV's all Highend. This Viewer would crash over half of them and the other half in about 30 minutes once the memory runs out and pagefile just pukes.

Thats the point, many say I can run it, sure..in your sim with no one around. This is a Social Game, I enjoy the Live Music, so unique to this game, the clubs the social aspect of it. But many are ok, runs ok, but it will positively not run ok in a social environment.

My computer is beating yours like a rented mule and it shouldn't. I can get 30 FPS in a region with 50-60 avatars and my video card is rated at 40% of yours and my CPU's several generations older.

Yes, there's a problem - however, under the circumstances the story isn't "the viewer's too hard on old equipment" or this situation wouldn't play out the way it does.

So it's either an incompatibility with something in newer cards/Windows 11 or it's a setting issue. As far as settings go, I'd be curious to hear about 1) draw distance, 2) level of detail and 3) screen resolution.

[BriannaLovey]

Just now, Theresa Tennyson said:

My computer is beating yours like a rented mule and it shouldn't. I can get 30 FPS in a region with 50-60 avatars and my video card is rated at 40% of yours and my CPU's several generations older.

Yes, there's a problem - however, under the circumstances the story isn't "the viewer's too hard on old equipment" or this situation wouldn't play out the way it does.

So it's either an incompatibility with something in newer cards/Windows 11 or it's a setting issue. As far as settings go, I'd be curious to hear about 1) draw distance, 2) level of detail and 3) screen resolution.

It is likely also the antivirus, since Firestorm's binaries are not signed with a certificate, and therefore will be constantly scanned for malicious activity by whatever antivirus he has. If he gets a much higher speed than FS on the LL official viewer, then this is probably the reason.

 

39 minutes ago, Jase Devin said:

I have run FS7 but at 30fps before any AV's are around. Thats going from 200fps same setting. But I frequently go to crowded places, I go places wear the Av's are super complex, places like The Chamber, you have 90 AV's all Highend. This Viewer would crash over half of them and the other half in about 30 minutes once the memory runs out and pagefile just pukes.

Thats the point, many say I can run it, sure..in your sim with no one around. This is a Social Game, I enjoy the Live Music, so unique to this game, the clubs the social aspect of it. But many are ok, runs ok, but it will positively not run ok in a social environment.

See what I said above.

[Velk Kerang]

I, personally don't care for the changes myself. They do nothing to impress me. Mesh by itself is already taxing enough of high end gaming rigs let alone the average computer. I recently watched a roleplay sim fall under new ownership and the new owner replace all the builds with complete and extremely ugly mesh builds and it did nothing, but create a super duper lag fest. The new changes will only serve to make that experience worse. Especially if you are using Firestorm which most users are. 

However I have recently been testing out one of the newer viewers. Genesis Viewer. Mainly because Singularity has been having issues telling me to relog and I have been unable to log in with Firestorm. Probably because I have over 200k items in my inventory. I don't know. I've been using a text viewer Radegast for the most part. With Genesis I logged in and loaded my entire inventory instantly. To say this viewer is awesome is an understatement. The movement is fluid as if you are walking around on a brand new avatar. So this may the answer for some of you. 

You can find it here. https://genesisviewer.org/ I would totally recommend this viewer mates. It's like the viewer you'd get if Firestorm and Singularity had a baby, but even better. lol So it may not always be the hardware that is the issue. It very well may be the software you are using to log in to Second Life. I'll drop a video link so you all can see what it looks like. Hope this helps some and good luck mates.👍😎

 

 

[BriannaLovey]

1 minute ago, Velk Kerang said:

I, personally don't care for the changes myself. They do nothing to impress me. Mesh by itself is already taxing enough of high end gaming rigs let alone the average computer. I recently watched a roleplay sim fall under new ownership and the new owner replace all the builds with complete and extremely ugly mesh builds and it did nothing, but create a super duper lag fest. The new changes will only serve to make that experience worse. Especially if you are using Firestorm which most users are. 

However I have recently been testing out one of the newer viewers. Genesis Viewer. Mainly because Singularity has been having issues telling me to relog and I have been unable to log in with Firestorm. Probably because I have over 200k items in my inventory. I don't know. I've been using a text viewer Radegast for the most part. With Genesis I logged in and loaded my entire inventory instantly. To say this viewer is awesome is an understatement. The movement is fluid as if you are walking around on a brand new avatar. So this may the answer for some of you. 

You can find it here. https://genesisviewer.org/ I would totally recommend this viewer mates. It's like the viewer you'd get if Firestorm and Singularity had a baby, but even better. lol So it may not always be the hardware that is the issue. It very well may be the software you are using to log in to Second Life. I'll drop a video link so you all can see what it looks like. Hope this helps some and good luck mates.👍😎

 

 

Ooh nice! I will add it to the list of recommended non-PBR/optional-PBR list of viewers in my PBR Luddites group, since it says on the Genesis page that the viewer won't have PBR implemented until it is performant enough.

[Jase Devin]

19 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

My computer is beating yours like a rented mule and it shouldn't. I can get 30 FPS in a region with 50-60 avatars and my video card is rated at 40% of yours and my CPU's several generations older.

Yes, there's a problem - however, under the circumstances the story isn't "the viewer's too hard on old equipment" or this situation wouldn't play out the way it does.

So it's either an incompatibility with something in newer cards/Windows 11 or it's a setting issue. As far as settings go, I'd be curious to hear about 1) draw distance, 2) level of detail and 3) screen resolution.

I don't have any problems myself I run Ultra, except I lose 80% of my fps. I'm concerned about the people with mid grade machines being left behind.

However things are looking up, I fired up Secondlife Viewer and there was an update Second Life Release 7.1.9.9604591078 (64bit).

Now the GPU is only running at 50% which is a step in the right direction, that makes me happy.

[Dorientje Woller]

6 hours ago, DevlinMcDermott said:

Example

The latest Dell 4 months old

16g Ram
CPU Intel i5
Intel Iris Xe Graphics

Completely empty of programs other than factory installed. 

I've tried running Firestorm, Second Life's even Cool LV. It either lags for 15-20 minutes until the fan goes hyperspeed OR renders half of everything gray.

Frankly, if i would have paid 2000 USD for this, I would be on the phone with the costumer service of Dell, because they have screwed me over. Or either, you are forgetting to list your dedicated graphical card.