Henri Beauchamp Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said: I know quite a few creators who spend time inworld so are 'bonafied SL'ers, yet they didn't learn to create here but instead were fluent in 3D modeling and brought their talents here. Why do you see that as a negative? Or why is is so important to you that people build first in SL and then graduate to a 3D modeling program? I do not see any problem with already competent modelers working to build gorgeous stuff in SL. My problem is about the fact that SL, that used to be a trampoline for future creators who could learn and experiment with modeling in SL, thus bringing ”self made creators” to the SL community, is now becoming more and more like Sansar, with professional-class creators who build stuff on one side, and the ”incompetent” users on the other... And we all know what happened with Sansar ! 🫣 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: Are you not seeing enough benefits to balance out the extra work of creating PBR content? Or other reasons? BOTH LOL. Additional software (I am not using the new Blender so that isn't an option) and I don't like the look. Simple as that. In SANSAR I negated the PBR with grayscale placeholders. I am happy that my legacy stuff looks better under the new tech but ---- it is making SL difficult or impossible to run for many folks (yeah SANSAR which of course didn't work) and I m not in favor of that. It is here and it isn't going away but I don;t have to adopt it willingly just deal with what I cannot change :D. If you love it-- that's great. Edited June 24 by Chic Aeon spelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 13 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said: This is impossible. Period. There are gazillions of builds and parcels in SL (especially in main land), and you cannot expect everyone to rebuild everything for PBR ! There's a difference between "impossible" and "would take a really long time". As for the "gazillions of builds and parcels in SL" why would LL want us to rebuild everything when there's a thread on this very forum full of people arguing that the majority of SLs abandoned builds should be subject to "object decay" because they're apparently so undesirable that people want them gone from SL entirely. I'm not saying that LL are expecting us to replace legacy content overnight but then I agree with you that regardless of time frame it's still an unrealistic expectation because SL as a platform is in a very different position to when it was first launched. SL is still hopelessly outdated even with the latest new features and now it's reputation is tarnished so attracting new creators is going to be a lot harder, the population is dwindling and the pioneering spirit that had the majority of residents experimenting with build tools and creating all that awesome content that went into creating the virtual world we inhabit is all but gone, replaced with rampant consumerism. SL is no longer a brave new virtual world waiting to be shaped, it's InstagramWorld, where people come to dress their perfect virtual selves in perfect virtual clothes then sit on perfect virtual beaches and take perfect virtual pictures of their perfect virtual lives. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starberry Passion Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 I see some people not understanding what PBR is. PBR, Physically based Rendering, mimics how light reflects off of surfaces and its interaction of materials, to help bring out a more photorealistic vision. The reason why some of you are seeing extremely bright lands, or crappy textures that make no sense is because the material that is put on there isn't really all that good to begin with. It just took PBR to show you how your material actually looks BUT I found this cute meal in Second life on F.S recent viewer! 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Gorky Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 16 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said: The lack of any tool to build/model mesh in SL is of course the reason why today's creators spend 95% of their time using external programs, and do not spend any significant time in SL any more... I am really grateful to LL for pushing me out of SL. When I started SL I had no artistic skills. I created content in world between 2004 and 2012, It became my full time living between 2007 - 2011. In 2012 I took a hiatus to learn 3D modelling with the introduction of mesh and I never came back to SL. I loved 3D modelling and managed to use my SL portfolio (predominantly prim and sculpties work) to get an entry level job in the games industry. I spent 6 years working in games, then 4 years in Arch Viz and the last 2 years i’ve been running a team developing VR training solutions for NATO. If LL had not forced me out of SL to learn CGI Industry standard tools, I may not have had the chance to have this career. So thank you LL for giving me the kick up the arse I needed. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 12 minutes ago, Porky Gorky said: I am really grateful to LL for pushing me out of SL. When I started SL I had no artistic skills. I created content in world between 2004 and 2012, It became my full time living between 2007 - 2011. In 2012 I took a hiatus to learn 3D modelling with the introduction of mesh and I never came back to SL. I loved 3D modelling and managed to use my SL portfolio (predominantly prim and sculpties work) to get an entry level job in the games industry. I spent 6 years working in games, then 4 years in Arch Viz and the last 2 years i’ve been running a team developing VR training solutions for NATO. If LL had not forced me out of SL to learn CGI Industry standard tools, I may not have had the chance to have this career. So thank you LL for giving me the kick up the arse I needed. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) PBR is here to stay and I'm not willing to invest the time needed to learn and master it to create for Second Life. I'm 66 years old and 17 years in SL. I'm not as enthusiastic as in the first 10 years anymore. So this is most likely the end of me trying to make useful things for Second Life. It is what it is. And since that is the only thing that I like about Second Life.... Social life was never a big part of my Second Life (in fact non existent). I've payed premium until April next year. After that I will start to live under a bridge, if I still will be interested to stay in Second Life at that time. Everything ends, so why not my Second Life? It is not PBR's fault. It is just a last push. Edited June 24 by Sid Nagy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Gorky Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said: So this is most likely the end of me trying to make useful things for Second Life. It is what it is. And since that is the only thing that I like about Second Life.... Social life was never a big part of my Second Life (more non existent). Don’t be disheartened, I think there will always be a demand for “legacy” content as long as SL exists. I speak from experience, if you look at my Marketplace store for Porky Gorky, content development stopped in 2012. It’s all prim and sculptie, no mesh. Since 2012 not a day has gone by where I haven't sold something. Most days it’s an insignificant sale, a plant for L$10 or my best selling object which turns out to be a scupltie toilet which is L$50 or something. Yet some days I will sell 50 prefab buildings, even now, in 2024. It’s ridiculous! Edited June 24 by Porky Gorky 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said: PBR is here to stay and I'm not willing to invest the time needed to learn and master it to create for Second Life. Don't fall into the same trap with PBR vs legacy texturing as people seem to have with mesh vs prims. Prims are still just as great at what they do as they always have been but because mesh is considered "better" (for various reasons) everybody seems to think that prims are now worthless. Some of my favourite creations in SL are prims (others are entirely made of sculpties). Sure you can do things more "efficiently" with mesh and it's "easier" (if you discount the countless hours it takes to learn all the required steps) to make more detailed content but none of that actually detracts from what you can achieve with prims. Those who listened to the propaganda that "mesh killed in-world building" may have given up on prims but those who just love to build things and don't see creativity as a competition still enjoy playing with prims to this day. Similarly PBR may look "better" (although there are those who would currently disagree) but it doesn't in any way diminish what can be achieved using legacy textures, in fact a really well done prim build using nothing but diffuse textures is indisputably more impressive and outstanding than some super fancy mesh build ripped from a game and splattered with freebie seamless PBR materials from questionable sources. Edited June 24 by Fluffy Sharkfin typo 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said: Those who listened to the propaganda that "mesh killed in-world building" may have given up on prims but those who just love to build things and don't see creativity as a competition still enjoy playing with prims to this day. I don't think that people claimed that mesh killed inworld building. What it did do is kill inworld building for commercial purposes to a huge degree, simply because mesh things look so much better than prims can achieve without using way too many of them. The things I make and sell are still made solely of prims - but then they only use 1 prim each Edited June 24 by Phil Deakins 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said: What it did do is kill inworld building for commercial purposes to a huge degree Yes, I suspect that a lot of those who started the rumour that prims were dead were speaking as merchants rather than creators. Unfortunately that line has become so blurred over time that some people seem to no longer be capable of making a distinction between the two. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marianne Little Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) Just a heads up about enviroments. I have purchased Battlescars windlights, and some of the 2023 ones is updated for PBR. I have just got my sets redelivered. The ones made after February 2024 already includes a boxed PBR version. Now that Firestorm has PBR, I was selecting some settings and applied it to my land. Edited June 24 by Marianne Little 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyric Demina Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 23 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said: Sadly, LL has recently taken a stance which is geared entirely towards ”creators” (neglecting genuine SLers, i.e. genuine SL users), some (many ?) of them not even using SL, but just making stuff for selling it in SL. I would remind you that Second Life is a world created by its users. There would be no users without the creators that make the users want to keep coming back, inspiring the users, perhaps, to start creating also. Creators who can make the world look better, and better still, and even better still, are going to do really well in a platform that enables this kind of progressive evolution of power and technology. 23 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said: Don't take me wrong: I'm all for progress and improvements but, currently, PBR, while definitely desirable for the future of SL, is not a real improvement over what we had before, since it basically breaks many things we already have ! Are you really "for" progress? Because "progress" necessarily means change; and that's what's going on here. Things are changing. And depending on your perspective, things are getting better; it's just taking a little time and a little patience, as with everything else. We can make things better; it's always within our power to do so. If you don't like the way something looks, it's in your power to make it look better. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Beauchamp Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Hymn Celestia said: I would remind you that Second Life is a world created by its users. Was... It is not any more, when the said users cannot really create anything substantial any more, by lack of the proper tools in the viewer. They then must rely on professional-class creators, and we progressively shift from a world ”made by its users” to a world made by a very small sub-set of the said ”users” (when they are at all actual SL users) who create outside of SL and import their work to sell it. The business model is not at all the same !... It becomes Sansar-like ! 52 minutes ago, Hymn Celestia said: Are you really ”for” progress? Because ”progress” necessarily means change; and that's what's going on here. I have been in SL since 2006. I adopted every change, but in my own way, at my own rhythm, and ”fixing” bad changes everywhere I could. I am an eager early adopter and a total geek. However, I am also unforgiving towards regressions. Progress is all about improvements. If there is no improvement, or the improvements are counterbalanced with unacceptable drawbacks, then this is not progress any more ! PBR will be a progress, after all the bugs that plague it will have finally been ironed out: this project was released by LL in a (barely) beta status, sadly, thus all the ruckus we are experiencing now. 😢 52 minutes ago, Hymn Celestia said: If you don't like the way something looks, it's in your power to make it look better. That's exactly what I have been doing these past 16+ years with the Cool VL Viewer... I accompanied the change to Windlight (which was as big as PBR on the hardware requirements front, but did not involve as much breakage, since pretty much all legacy contents kept rendering the same and even better), by providing a legacy viewer branch (v1.19, with over 90 weekly releases) along the Windlight one (v1.2x), then with Extended Environment, by providing a dual renderer (WL + EE), the time for EE to catch up on the performances front (which happened with the ”performances viewer”), and I am doing it now again, by providing a viewer with, again, a dual renderer that can do all rendering modes (forward, ALM, PBR) and allow SLers with a ”weak” hardware or who are unhappy with PBR current status to still use SL as they enjoy using it. Satisfied ? Or shall I do more ? Edited June 24 by Henri Beauchamp Typos 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 On 6/23/2024 at 5:18 AM, Fluffy Sharkfin said: "we just need you to rebuild the whole world for us in PBR!". If that is the case I just hope they don't expect residents to do it all for them and instead actually lend a hand this time around! So while we all know by now that I am not personally on the PBR bandwagon and while I DO agree with the idea above in part there is a flaw in the reasoning. The legacy world still looks fine in the PBR viewer for the most part. Some things -- depending on how the creator made them are not great but a lot is still fine and looks better (EEP defendant of course) under PBR. Example: Unretouched screenshot under default land lighting. NON-PBR Firestorm. Unretouched screenshot in the Linden PBR viewer. To me the PBR version looks a bit better. There is NO PBR HERE. Nada. Also to be fair -- with some pretty nice free on the Marketplace PBR textures (and one creator selling at 5 lindens for packs with both PBR and legacy textures) you can make some really good stuff WITH PRIMS. Now you still have the prim land impact issues but in some cases full perm mesh can be used easily by just dragging on a texture. This was always true (only in SOME cases) but NOW those thing look a lot better. So just trying to be fair to both sides of the issue. And I was discussing in RL last night with someone I know in SL folks with older and slower machines CAN still use PBR and have it work fine. If anyone wants to test that theory with an older machine they can come to my now tiny store and see if things still work for them. I am hoping they do as I see no signs of trouble. I don't have one of the computers that are heating up though. If someone does test please poke or reply so I see the results. Thanks. I think it might be pretty funny -- and fitting really if folks start advertising in PBR REGION and NON- PBR region. There is room -- ih my mind for both. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 27 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said: So while we all know by now that I am not personally on the PBR bandwagon and while I DO agree with the idea above in part there is a flaw in the reasoning. The legacy world still looks fine in the PBR viewer for the most part. Oh I absolutely agree! I was, after all, "reading between the lines" of what had been said and will admit that there was more than a little hyperbole mixed in with my interpretation. I think that PBR is potentially beneficial to those who like to build with prims or wish to add additional detail to mesh builds without having to resort to Blender, etc. and the fact that LL have packaged up materials as a single "drag-and-drop to apply" asset means it should be a lot easier for people to update older mesh builds with PBR once they get used to the new system and more materials become available. As you point out, adding PBR to prims does come at a cost and randomly dragging materials onto some older prim builds should definitely come with a warning but you're absolutely right that PBR does work just as nicely visually on prims as it does on mesh. Hopefully as some of the confusion and more glaring issues with PBR have been overcome it will become more widely accepted and used. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 43 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said: So while we all know by now that I am not personally on the PBR bandwagon and while I DO agree with the idea above in part there is a flaw in the reasoning. The legacy world still looks fine in the PBR viewer for the most part. Some things -- depending on how the creator made them are not great but a lot is still fine and looks better (EEP defendant of course) under PBR. Example: Unretouched screenshot under default land lighting. NON-PBR Firestorm. Unretouched screenshot in the Linden PBR viewer. To me the PBR version looks a bit better. There is NO PBR HERE. Nada. Also to be fair -- with some pretty nice free on the Marketplace PBR textures (and one creator selling at 5 lindens for packs with both PBR and legacy textures) you can make some really good stuff WITH PRIMS. Now you still have the prim land impact issues but in some cases full perm mesh can be used easily by just dragging on a texture. This was always true (only in SOME cases) but NOW those thing look a lot better. So just trying to be fair to both sides of the issue. And I was discussing in RL last night with someone I know in SL folks with older and slower machines CAN still use PBR and have it work fine. If anyone wants to test that theory with an older machine they can come to my now tiny store and see if things still work for them. I am hoping they do as I see no signs of trouble. I don't have one of the computers that are heating up though. If someone does test please poke or reply so I see the results. Thanks. I think it might be pretty funny -- and fitting really if folks start advertising in PBR REGION and NON- PBR region. There is room -- ih my mind for both. On items that use normal maps and specular maps now, they look better in a PBR viewer than the non-PBR. I don't know the exact reasons why, but I imagine it is more faithfully rendering those maps now, and also lighting is interacting with them correctly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 25 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said: On items that use normal maps and specular maps now, they look better in a PBR viewer than the non-PBR. I don't know the exact reasons why, but I imagine it is more faithfully rendering those maps now, and also lighting is interacting with them correctly. For the most part I have never used either very much. I bake my AMBIENT (not cast shadows) into the main texture. Hence much less to download -- just usually one 1024 texture on most items. As we were discussing PBR in my RL living room last night I was reminded that my "make things work for the most folks possible" way of building is not new. When I did multimedia web design long ago (back in the dial up days for most folks. Higher speed connects were coming in. Most of my clients all had high speed and used Fex Ex for "quick deliveries" etc. Still I waited a year and a half before I connected to DSL (and then it wasn't fast) BECAUSE I wanted to be able to see how things worked for "the masses" on dialup. I come from a place where you tested as much and and well as you could. Good memories. I think this will all work out. Just growing pains. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said: I bake my AMBIENT (not cast shadows) into the main texture. Hence much less to download -- just usually one 1024 texture on most items. You may eventually want to play around with PBR, specifically the dedicated AO map and see how it compares to baking your AO into the diffuse texture. Ambient occlusion maps are definitely way better than baking regular shadows since they're calculated using ambient light rather than direct lighting. The difference between baking them and using a dedicated AO map may not have been all that apparent in SL up until now since, while additional lighting was often used, it wasn't exactly a critical component of a scene. With the advent of PBR and reflection/light probes adding extra lights to the internal rooms of buildings etc is probably far more important and because when you have direct lighting in a scene the strength of the effect of the ambient occlusion "shading" varies depending on where those lights are pointing (eg in a room lit predominantly by ambient light you would have faint AO "shadows" in the corners, but shine a torch into that corner and they would all but disappear), and that's the benefit of providing a dedicated AO map, you can use it to help SL calculate the ambient occlusion on an objects surface while still allowing for direct lighting to also contribute to the shadows (or lack of them). As far as the texture resolution goes hopefully people won't be all be uploading every map at 2k, a lot of them really don't need that sort of pixel density! Edited June 24 by Fluffy Sharkfin forgot a word 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyric Demina Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 3 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said: That's exactly what I have been doing these past 16+ years with the Cool VL Viewer... Ah I see now. I'm not familiar with that viewer but yes, now I know who you are and recognize your stuff; I didn't at first. 3 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said: Or shall I do more ? CAN you do more? Always do more 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Beauchamp Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 2 hours ago, Hymn Celestia said: CAN you do more? Always do more In case you wonder who this guy is, he is called ”Doublemore”... Edited June 24 by Henri Beauchamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 2 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said: You may eventually want to play around with PBR, specifically the dedicated AO map and see how it compares to baking your AO into the diffuse texture. I did test a LOT for a couple of weeks. My stuff has always "barely" had shadows and mostly where things would always be in shadows (like open drawers). I don't like cast lighting OR for the most part shadows under objects as they certainly are different in different EePs (and in Windlights). I am not "in the biz" any longer and not trying to send the kids to college --- those friends that I know are using PBR not because they like it but because they think they need to to sell things. And that certainly could turn out to be true. I do know one big name creator that has NOT gone to PBR. They may -- they may not. I personally am perfectly happy with how things are and in many cases how LEGACY objects look under the new viewer (that The Lab has done a good job with -- some cases DO apply of course). I am sure there are some creators strapped into that PBR wagon and going forward happily. I definitely understand how it works and not much differently than in SANSAR (where I also opted out of PBR texturing :D). The good news is that everyone does get SOME choice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted June 25 Author Share Posted June 25 oOo love the pretty rocks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted June 26 Author Share Posted June 26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagachief Darkstone Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 It took some work to PBR-ize some of the non-PBR objects I used for my home scene, but it was certainly worth it. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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