The new ToS and something I don't think was taken into consideration by LL.

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

6 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

A graphics program makes those layers transparent or not , like photoshop or gimp. One example is, taking a skin that may already be on the market back into the graphics program and adding a layer to it from the graphics program and baking it into the skin.

That line is specifically to Child avatar content creators.

"Child avatar content creators are required to add a modesty layer which is baked into child avatar skins or bodies, is not transparent, does not match the skin tone, and may not be removed."

Now what makes a modestly layer baked into a skin transparent on the skin that it is baked into?

Nothing, because it is baked into the skin..

An alpha layer or alpha cut separate from the skin.. Say from someones inventory or that they made themselves and uploaded into SL, isn't  making the modestly layer transparent, it's making the avatar transparent.

There is no way to make the modesty layer itself transparent, without breaking the rules.

 

This is now the 3rd time I will have explained this. If I apply an alpha so I can wear a a pair of shorts or pant, I am making my underwear zone transparent. That is now a violation of the ToS. Full stop. I work in policy enforcement. This is the first counter that will be made to this policy. I know that this isn't what LL means. But it is what LL wrote, and that's a problem.

5 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

No ... not censorship, but protecting our minors against bad influences.

What minors are you protecting? There are no minors here. There are no real life children in SL, unless they are violating the age limits established in the ToS. This isn't about protecting minors. It never was. It's about LL protecting its public image by doing nothing of substance, and it's about all the Helen Lovejoy's out there screaming in hysteria "won't someone PLEASE think of the children." This is a platform for adults, with characters controlled by adults. If LL wanted to protect minors from bad influences, they'd close the last stretch of the age limit of users to 18.

4 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

No...not bad influences but protecting that class of avatars who feel squeamish at the sight of a child avatar.

I love every part of this answer, because it calls this whole situation out for what it is. It's gatekeeping and bigotry against the way people choose to present themselves. At best, this is about appeasing people who want to poo poo on people who don't play SL the way they do. At worst, it's outright discrimination. Many thanks for pointing this out directly.

2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

They do.

They have the right to comply with the ToS or leave or get banhammered for ToS violations.

Totally Equal Rights.

Oh my friend, there is a huge difference between equality and equity. If you aren't playing a child avatar, this doesn't affect you in the slightest. This change only affects people who play child avatars, who now have more and more rules that apply to them but not other users. Just because we follow the same rules doesn't mean those rules affect you the same way. Google "equality equity liberation" and take a good look at the various pictures of black kids trying to watch a baseball game. Equality does nothing to address the problem. And please don't say "then don't play a child avatar," as for some people who do, that's like telling a trans person to stop pretending they're the sex they weren't born with, or telling a gay person to just stop being gay. There are many reasons people play child avatars. Very few of them are doing it to have pretend sex.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

23 minutes ago, Silachan Rain said:

We all wish it was as flawless and simple as that.

so wear your LL ToS Bra under the yellow sweatshirt, and carry  on, nobody will ever see it because the ToS forbids you getting naked anyway, and you keep telling us you don't do that naked stuff, so why does it matter if you are wearing a bra nobody else can see?

You being unhappy about a hiidden bra breaking your immersion is a YOU problem, not an EVERYONE ELSE problem.

[Dorientje Woller]

6 minutes ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

What minors are you protecting? There are no minors here. There are no real life children in SL, unless they are violating the age limits established in the ToS. This isn't about protecting minors. It never was. It's about LL protecting its public image by doing nothing of substance, and it's about all the Helen Lovejoy's out there screaming in hysteria "won't someone PLEASE think of the children." This is a platform for adults, with characters controlled by adults. If LL wanted to protect minors from bad influences, they'd close the last stretch of the age limit of users to 18.

Sure ... can you say that with 100% certainty?

[Ceka Cianci]

36 minutes ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

This is now the 3rd time I will have explained this. If I apply an alpha so I can wear a a pair of shorts or pant, I am making my underwear zone transparent.

Then you may want to make sure you understand the creation process before repeating it then.. Because it is about the creation process..

I'll explain one last time that, that section of the guidelines was specific to the sellers and creators.. Not the users of their products.

An alpha layer or alpha cut from in world, is not capable of removing or making the Modestly layer  that is baked into the skin, transparent so that the nude skin layer underneath it is exposed..

It is pretty cut and dry what they said, to a creator.

I can see  if you are not a creator, having a hard time understanding what they are saying..

If you are still worried about somehow breaking the rules, then go with what you feel.. But it's not good to start spreading misinformation to others and causing a panic because you misunderstand the rules..Which I hope isn't the case..

Edited May 10 by Ceka Cianci

[Theresa Tennyson]

35 minutes ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

This is now the 3rd time I will have explained this. If I apply an alpha so I can wear a a pair of shorts or pant, I am making my underwear zone transparent. That is now a violation of the ToS. Full stop. I work in policy enforcement. This is the first counter that will be made to this policy. I know that this isn't what LL means. But it is what LL wrote, and that's a problem.

 

Of course it is. By your reasoning, it's also transparent whenever you log out because nobody can see it any more.

[Silachan Rain]

2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

so wear your LL ToS Bra under the yellow sweatshirt, and carry  on, nobody will ever see it because the ToS forbids you getting naked anyway, and you keep telling us you don't do that naked stuff, so why does it matter if you are wearing a bra nobody else can see?

You being unhappy about a hiidden bra breaking your immersion is a YOU problem, not an EVERYONE ELSE problem.

Dude. I literally wasn't even talking to you. If you read ANYTHING you'd see that I already said before that *I personally already wear 'modesty layers' myself*. I've been wearing undershirts and briefs LONG before this rule update became a thing. I, however, am not the only person who plays a child avatar. This example was just to point out how it isn't easy to simply swap between a male shape and a female shape within SL's limits. It has NOTHING to do with the modesty layer BS.

Get a grip and go touch some grass. You're clearly losing it.

[Arwyn Quandry]

Everyone talking about how a bra top will look on toddler avatars, but what about prim babies? What about drawings or photos of children? Do we need to plaster bras on every potentially female depiction of a child? 

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Arwyn Quandry said:

Everyone talking about how a bra top will look on toddler avatars, but what about prim babies? What about drawings or photos of children? Do we need to plaster bras on every potentially female depiction of a child? 

Prim babies must be clothed or swaddled. You wouldn't want them to catch a cold, would you?!?

Oh, wait a minute - we only care about AVATAR babies, children, and teens.

Prim babies can just rot.  Or whatever prims do.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Of course it is. By your reasoning, it's also transparent whenever you log out because nobody can see it any more.

It's like when children play "peek-a-boo", they do not have a well-developed sense of "persistence".

"Where did you go? I don't see you anymore, you must no longer exist!"

 

[Psyche Starling]

I'm just picturing a bunch of disembodied bras and undies floating around SL, waiting for their avatars to log back on.

[Blush Bravin]

7 hours ago, ErwinVonVlotho said:

Nonbinary is a gender identity. All human bodies are either male or female; we're a sexually reproducing species. The easiest option is to go with the modesty layer that matches the physical sex of your body.

Just one example of why your statement is false: 

People who are intersex have genitals, chromosomes or reproductive organs that don't fit into a male/female sex binary. Their genitals might not match their reproductive organs, or they may have traits of both. Being intersex may be evident at birth, childhood, later in adulthood or never.

What about those who are born with both sets of reproductive organs? 

Trying to fit everyone into two cute little boxes doesn't work. 

Edited May 10 by Blush Bravin

[ErwinVonVlotho]

Just now, Blush Bravin said:

People who are intersex have genitals, chromosomes or reproductive organs that don't fit into a male/female sex binary.

Wrong. Tell me what DSD an "intersex" (it's an obsolete and inaccurate term) person has, and I'll tell you, with 100% reliability, whether they're male or female.

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

don't fit into a male/female sex binary.

But there is a male/female sex binary. If you disagree then you need to name a third sex, describe the type of gamete it produces and explain its role in reproduction. Sex is not the same as gender. Sex is binary.

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

What about those who are born with both sets of reproductive organs? 

There has never been a single verified case of a true human hermaphrodite.

The problem here is that LL are trying to minimise the danger sexualised a**play poses to the platform. If people keep coming up with more and more esoteric reasons why they can't have modesty panels on child avatars, the logical next step is to simply ban child avatars. Nobody in LL's legal department is worrying about "intersex" people, because it just isn't relevant.

[Theresa Tennyson]

7 minutes ago, ErwinVonVlotho said:

Nobody in LL's legal department is worrying about "intersex" people, because it just isn't relevant.

Then why are you?

[ErwinVonVlotho]

2 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Then why are you?

It wasn't me that brought them up.

[Sadvhi]

9 minutes ago, ErwinVonVlotho said:

The problem here is that LL are trying to minimise the danger sexualised a**play poses to the platform. If people keep coming up with more and more esoteric reasons why they can't have modesty panels on child avatars, the logical next step is to simply ban child avatars. 

I was thinking that a good place to start would be to get rid of family nude beaches and those kinds of gathering spots which are really breeding grounds and places for people to meet to engage in adult activities that are against the rules. The problem is that even if someone were to plop themselves on one of those sims, there would be no way to determine who is acting against the TOS there, unless they try to encourage them via direct message to say something against the rules, which would implicate them as well. 

The new rule about wearing skin with modesty layers baked in is a great deterrent, but people who visit those sims will either switch from using child avatars to a petite adult body, stating in their profile that they're 18 while continuing to rp younger than that in IMs or discord  - or if they continue to use a child av, they'll probably just switch to a non-compliant skin once they tp away to someplace private to hook up with other offenders. So a wholesale ban on all child avatars will never be a solution to the problem the TOS seeks to address.

It's a shame there's no way to put a stop to those kinds of sims. Because where else are people meeting others who are interested in those kinds of activities that are against the TOS? Definitely not in the kid community or any of the places those in the kid community hang out.

[Theresa Tennyson]

4 minutes ago, ErwinVonVlotho said:

It wasn't me that brought them up.

That's right - you were the one who brought up sexual reproduction when avatars don't reproduce sexually.

[ErwinVonVlotho]

1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

That's right - you were the one who brought up sexual reproduction when avatars don't reproduce sexually.

I brought up the fact that all humans are either male or female, and said the easiest solution is to wear the modesty layer appropriate to whatever sex your body is. This seems relevant, in context.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, ErwinVonVlotho said:

I brought up the fact that all humans are either male or female

WOW!

(Somebody never heard of intersex or XXY and XYY, etc.)

[Love Zhaoying]

I tell you what.  If you don't know the difference between "sex and gender", try not to say too much. It's off-topic, and will just start an argument. 🙂

 

[Blush Bravin]

22 minutes ago, ErwinVonVlotho said:

There has never been a single verified case of a true human hermaphrodite.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ambiguous-genitalia/symptoms-causes/syc-20369273

Tell that to the parents who not so long ago were given but one option when faced with discovering their newborn had this condition, which was to choose the gender of their child.

[ErwinVonVlotho]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

WOW!

(Somebody never heard of intersex or XXY and XYY, etc.)

They're still either male or female.

[ErwinVonVlotho]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I tell you what.  If you don't know the difference between "sex and gender", try not to say too much. It's off-topic, and will just start an argument. 🙂

 

I do know the difference. It's the people who think "male" and "female" are genders who don't know it. They're sexes. The corresponding genders are "masculine" and "feminine".

[Theresa Tennyson]

30 minutes ago, ErwinVonVlotho said:

 

There has never been a single verified case of a true human hermaphrodite.

[ErwinVonVlotho]

3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ambiguous-genitalia/symptoms-causes/syc-20369273

Tell that to the parents who not so long ago were given but one option when faced with discovering their newborn had this condition, which was to choose the gender of their child.

Irrelevant. Gender isn't the same as sex.

[ErwinVonVlotho]

1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

But there hasn't. That's a fact. Human hermaphrodites are not a thing that exists. Clearly in SL they can exist, but the obvious answer to that is for anyone who wants to present as a hermaphrodite to wear the female modesty panels.