So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Kathlen Onyx]

7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

In a previous post I pointed out that possibly this has all gone down not for legal reasons, though they can be justified perhaps, but to hide younger avatars from certain people who have a temptation towards them. I compared it to the alcoholic hiding the booze in an attempt to quit though that never or rarely works.

Adult avatars are NOT the ones that are mainly soliciting ***p**y. It's the Child avatars. Imagine how many child avatars an adult avi needs to IM to find one that is into that. I imagine a long time. Child avatars know where to seek the adult where that is their knk.

and yes! I know most Child Avatars are not doing this. Please don't quote me and say that.

Unfortunately, I fear that in time, the ones causing all the trouble will simply do it on M or G rated land and the cycle continues.

[Theresa Ravenheart]

34 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

In those circumstances, no, I fully agree. Trust me, no one hates those bad kid avatars more than genuine kid avatars who want nothing to do with that stuff. I gurantee it. 

However, to say that kid avatars can never be victimised in SL is not true. I know it's not true because I have experienced it. I posted about it earlier. For context, my avatar is a 9 year old boy, I was fully clothed at the time, alphas and everything and I was on a G sim in a public shopping mall aimed at kids. I can still remember very vividly to this day even years later their avatar and how they approached me. Next came the IMs and suggestive talk about the sort of things they wanted to do to me. I obviously AR'ed them straight away and thankfully never saw them again, so having experienced something so sickening please don't tell me that things like that don't happen.  

I specifically said "No one can be physically victimized in SL" for a reason, yes, people can approach you and say horrible things; but I'm sorry, that cannot compare to a REAL child being a victim of CSA. It was in response to  SpiritSparrow saying "I do have an issue that there are sick freaks who find pleasure in virtually molesting child avatars."

One, you are an adult and have the mental facilities to handle that like an adult in the moment, and two, the worst thing that man could to do you was to say really gross and disturbing things. And again, you had the power to stop it, you can leave, block them, or just log off. 

No one can "physically"  touch, control, abuse, hurt, or force your avatar to do things in SL unless you give them that power. Yes, they can say gross and unforgiveable things, but my point was that another avatar cannot "molest" your avatar unless you allow it to happen. I wasn't speaking about emotional or verbal abuse, which can and does happen sadly, but those are also easy and fast to stop with a block. RL victims cannot file an AR and just tp away. 

I'm not saying what happened to you was not upsetting, it was horrific that someone would do that to you, and I am very sorry it happened.

Edited May 7 by Theresa Ravenheart

[Dorientje Woller]

8 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

To dismiss a group of people that have been wearing and BOUGHT skins for years along with clothing and accessories is ridiculous.

Imagine if all of a sudden LL said you can't use the Maitreya or Lara X body anymore. I guarantee you that thread would have  200 pages in a day,  not over a four day period of time.

Ok so they are trying to prevent pervs from being able to strip down to a naked body. I do get it BUT there has got to be a better solution out there for that. I'll admit I do not know what it is but it's not what they have proposed. A simple BOM layer doesn't work as the pervs can still take it off.  Yes there are SO many ways to get around it but I'm not going to spell it all out here.

This would be the only change that I have a problem with because it involves real money people have spent.

Believe it or not I do have a child avatar that I sometimes took out to interact. I haven't spent A LOT of money on it but it is a Zooby avatar so the whole account needs to now be trashed as that was the only body I had on that account.  I am a bit sad that I no longer can use her because she used to be fun to go to a G or PG club once in awhile and RP her. Normally I would also log in my adult avatar and run them both. I never actually interacted with any avatars on that avatar except in local chat.

The other changes I think are needed but this modesty panel? wooo wheee, they have to rethink that one.

I do not have the solution. I hope LL comes up with a better one that they have proposed.

The only thing I have come up with, and I admit it's not a great idea by any means,  is if you want to play a child avatar then you purchase a subscription similar to PLUS that allows you to have a child avatar.  Make it so you need to use a payment method that links back to your real life, not a throw away gift card or anything like that. Perhaps a debit from your Bank account.  I doubt many ***players will be willing to do that but if they are and get caught at least there are RL legal ramifications that can be taken.

When it involves Real life money I believe LL has a responsibility to come up with a solution that drastically limits the loss of inventory that the RL adult purchased at a time when it was legal to purchase said items.

 

It's a trend I am seeing in RL, where the victim is considered the offender and the offender is considered the victim. 

[Denim Robonaught]

5 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Adult avatars are NOT the ones that are mainly soliciting ***p**y. It's the Child avatars. Imagine how many child avatars an adult avi needs to IM to find one that is into that. I imagine a long time. Child avatars know where to seek the adult where that is their knk.

I don't even know what to say to that. To quote one of my kids "stranger danger"

Edited May 7 by Denim Robonaught

[Stephanie Misfit]

1 hour ago, Arwyn Quandry said:

A point I've been thinking about:

I enjoy shopping. Sometimes I wind up at a clothes shop on G-rated land and want to demo. It's a little nerve-wracking changing clothing on G land because nudity isn't allowed. I've yet to have any issues with being reported for a nip slip while putting on a new shirt but I always wonder about clothing mainstores that use G land and why they make that choice. It seems weird to put your customers in the awkward position of having to overzealously cover their bits while trying your items.

They do that at least in part because SL does have underage users, who are restricted to accessing only G sims. Having your main store location rated G allows those users to shop there.

[Kathlen Onyx]

6 minutes ago, Denim Robonaught said:

I don't even know what to say to that. To quote one of my kids "stranger danger"

I'm not sure what that means. Do you agree with it or not? If not, please tell me why.

Edited May 7 by Kathlen Onyx

[Denim Robonaught]

1 minute ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

I'm not sure what that means. Do you agree with it or not? If not, please tell me.

Over the years my kids were approached four times by adults, Most of them were ARed. Stranger Danger exists, even in SL.

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Adult avatars are NOT the ones that are mainly soliciting ***p**y. It's the Child avatars. Imagine how many child avatars an adult avi needs to IM to find one that is into that. I imagine a long time. Child avatars know where to seek the adult where that is their knk.

and yes! I know most Child Avatars are not doing this. Please don't quote me and say that.

Unfortunately, I fear that in time, the ones causing all the trouble will simply do it on M or G rated land and the cycle continues.

Well that is not my experience. I've never IM'ed an adult for slexie but been IM approached many times by adults interested in having me sit on their knee to talk about the first thing that pops up.

I attend a couple clubs where there are others (mid to late teen look) who create and dress avatars like myself and we chat, compliment each other on outfits and looks and get tips and tricks from each other. There is older adults that are allowed access there and some IM for the same reasons. Some however, pop in for more then chat.

Interestingly to me, I've only been canvassed one or twice by others who look and dress like I do but many times by the older ones you claim are so innocent.

[Vivienne Schell]

5 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

 LL could make a child avatar with all the built in protections, but as I've said previously, I think they're reluctant to do that because the optics would be terrible if something were to happen with a body they had made and endorsed as safe. 

Won´t happen. Maybe if they decide to include one when they release a fresh line of starter avis. Otherwise you will have no other option than to wait for the skin creator to update. Likely they won´t, cause regular skins were never made for using them on child avatars, so they are not demanded to do that by the new ToS. But some probably will show mercy and add some patches here and there to their existing body skins, or Lindens will pay someone for creating an acceptable body skin line for child avis.

That should not be such a problem, it would be a much more serious issue if the head skins would be rendered obsolete.

[Kathlen Onyx]

Just now, Denim Robonaught said:

Over the years my kids were approached four times by adults, Most of them were ARed. Stranger Danger exists, even in SL.

Ok fair enough point. So we can safely say it happens with both?

How do you handle someone that come into a group or IM's on a shopping sim begging for that 100L they promise to pay back tomorrow? The way I handle it is not acknowledge them, and block them immediately before they can even ask twice or explain why they need it.  It's not that hard.

I'll stick with LL having to figure out the modesty layer so that Child avi's lose as little as possible.  

Otherwise I agree with the rest of the changes.

[Arielle Popstar]

8 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Won´t happen. Maybe if they decide to include one when they release a fresh line of starter avis. Otherwise you will have no other option than to wait for the skin creator to update. Likely they won´t, cause regular skins were never made for using them on child avatars, so they are not demanded to do that by the new ToS. But some probably will show mercy and add some patches here and there to their existing body skins, or Lindens will pay someone for creating an acceptable body skin line for child avis.

That should not be such a problem, it would be a much more serious issue if the head skins would be rendered obsolete.

It wouldn't be hard for Maitreya for example to include a hud with their patched skins that can only apply them to a specific maitreya body. It could just be an option for the under 18 crowd that will now have to wear them. They would still allow BoM layers to be applied over top but the base skin can't be changed except to different tones in the hud.

Edited May 7 by Arielle Popstar
added thought

[brodiac90]

11 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Ok fair enough point. So we can safely say it happens with both?

How do you handle someone that come into a group or IM's on a shopping sim begging for that 100L they promise to pay back tomorrow? The way I handle it is not acknowledge them, and block them immediately before they can even ask twice or explain why they need it.  It's not that hard.

I'll stick with LL having to figure out the modesty layer so that Child avi's lose as little as possible.  

Otherwise I agree with the rest of the changes.

I don't think you can equate a begger and a pedo talking suggestively to a child avatar. In my experience.... I just froze. My brain literally couldn't deal with the shock of what was happening. It probably has to do with my own childhood. One moment I was minding my own business, the next I was recieving this onslaught of .... I can't even describe it. Eventually my brain rebooted and I blocked and AR'ed them but it wasn't easy peasy like you describe. 

Edited May 7 by brodiac90

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well that is not my experience. I've never IM'ed an adult for slexie but been IM approached many times by adults interested in having me sit on their knee to talk about the first thing that pops up.

I attend a couple clubs where there are others (mid to late teen look) who create and dress avatars like myself and we chat, compliment each other on outfits and looks and get tips and tricks from each other. There is older adults that are allowed access there and some IM for the same reasons. Some however, pop in for more then chat.

Interestingly to me, I've only been canvassed one or twice by others who look and dress like I do but many times by the older ones you claim are so innocent.

Why do you think they are requiring a modesty panel for Child avi's when most Child avi's do nothing wrong and would never think to expose themselves or be naked. 

 @Arielle Popstar you know darn well that child avatars run ram ant in opensim soliciting this very thing.  If you don't then you must not have explored many of the grids out there. It's very prevalent there.

Response to @Denim Robonaught

As far as baths go or running around naked at home? You don't have to RP every single thing a child does. You can still have a bath and wear a bathing suit. It's RP where everything is made up.  Pretend they are naked taking a bath. Would you be willing to forgo that particular type of RP if LL changed it so the modesty panel doesn't break you clothing and accessories? If it's just a skin all that is is a BOM covering. It doesn't make your items unable to be used.

[Denim Robonaught]

I skipped out on some 90 pages, and I could go on replying to everything I see, and I even might still reply. But to conclude my stance and trying to convince non believers:

If LL deems it necessary then of course i'll keep my nickers on, and of course my kids will wear a nudity patch (let's call a cow a cow), and they'll stay away from A-land.

But I do hope that LL will see some reason and valid points in this thread, and remove, or loosen some of these now rules toward leniency. And if not, at least work together with body creators to work on a two layered BOM, or some other invention to minimize the loss of content.

Also shame on everyone of you who just use this thread to justify your believe with these rules and/or dump on kids because it's either convenient or you don't like the kids/family community.

[Theresa Ravenheart]

9 minutes ago, Denim Robonaught said:

I skipped out on some 90 pages, and I could go on replying to everything I see, and I even might still reply. But to conclude my stance and trying to convince non believers:

If LL deems it necessary then of course i'll keep my nickers on, and of course my kids will wear a nudity patch (let's call a cow a cow), and they'll stay away from A-land.

But I do hope that LL will see some reason and valid points in this thread, and remove, or loosen some of these now rules toward leniency. And if not, at least work together with body creators to work on a two layered BOM, or some other invention to minimize the loss of content.

Also shame on everyone of you who just use this thread to justify your believe with these rules and/or dump on kids because it's either convenient or you don't like the kids/family community.

I personally hope LL doesn't budge on the Kids not being allowed on Adult land, because that rule should have always been in place. I do hope that there is a decent solution for the modesty patch, because I don't really see it fixing the problem, it just fixes LL's biggest fear of a reporter or someone getting photos/videos of nude ADULT child avatars doing the nasty with other kid avatars or adults. It's just to protect themselves from that, imo.

And, they are not "kids", they are adults using child avatars. Can we please stop coddling them on the forums?? They are adults. Coddle them in your private RP, but here, they are adults and should be treated like and talked to as the adults that they are. 

Edited May 7 by Theresa Ravenheart

[Denim Robonaught]

8 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

As far as baths go or running around naked at home? You don't have to RP every single thing a child does. You can still have a bath and wear a bathing suit. It's RP where everything is made up.  Pretend they are naked taking a bath. Would you be willing to forgo that particular type of RP if LL changed it so the modesty panel doesn't break you clothing and accessories? If it's just a skin all that is is a BOM covering. It doesn't make your items unable to be used.

Who says it's RP? We're just having fun

[Vivienne Schell]

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It wouldn't be hard for Maitreya for example to include a hud with their patched skins that can only apply them to a specific maitreya body. It could just be an option for the under 18 crowd that will now have to wear them. They would still allow BoM layers to be applied over top but the base skin can't be changed except to different tones in the hud.

Maitreya never sold an own skin line and why should Maitreya care at all? They never ever promoted nor advertised Lara for being used for shaping a child avi. Also, why BOM? Trust me, LL has a very valid reason for introducing these patches painted on a skin and these are common in IMVU and whatever else environment, anyway, for the same valid reason.

[Theresa Ravenheart]

2 minutes ago, Denim Robonaught said:

Who says it's RP? We're just having fun

Maybe those are the things that you shouldn't say out loud, cause it sounds hella creepy. 

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

I don't think you can equate a begger and a pedo talking suggestively to a child avatar. In my experience.... I just froze. My brain literally couldn't deal with the shock of what was happening. It probably has to do with my own childhood. One moment I was minding my own business, the next I was recieving this onslaught of .... I can't even describe it. Eventually my brain rebooted and I blocked and AR'ed them but it wasn't wasy peasy like you describe. 

I get that, however  *and you won't like what I have to say. You can tell within 2 seconds of reading whether or not that IM is explicit in nature. Just minimize the chat because you are going to have to AR it,  until you feel like you can open it and go to their profile and block them

Also you can block people except friends from IMing you. That doesn't restrict you from talking in local to people. I actually have this turned on because I'm sick of random IM's from people I don't know.

 

[brodiac90]

Just now, Kathlen Onyx said:

I get that, however  *and you won't like what I have to say. You can tell within 2 seconds of reading whether or not that IM is explicit in nature. Just minimize the chat because you are going to have to AR it,  until you feel like you can open it and go to their profile and block them

Also you can block people except friends from IMing you. That doesn't restrict you from talking in local to people. I actually have this turned on because I'm sick of random IM's from people I don't know.

 

Thanks for the tip. 

[Denim Robonaught]

3 minutes ago, Theresa Ravenheart said:

I personally hope LL doesn't budge on the Kids not being allowed on Adult land, because that rule should have always been in place. I do hope that there is a decent solution for the modesty patch, because I don't really see it fixing the problem, it just fixes LL's biggest fear of a reporter or someone getting photos/videos of nude ADULT child avatars doing the nasty with other kid avatars or adults. It's just to protect themselves from that, imo.

And, they are not "kids", they are adults using child avatars. Can we please stop coddling them on the forums?? They are adults. Coddle them in your private RP, but here, they are adults and should be treated like and talked to as the adults that they are. 

My kid is just a kid, an i'm a caring mother. We each have our feelings, and we each care for each other, and crazy stuff happens in our house. you just don't (always) RP such things. people also don't get that you don't neceserally RP being a kid or being a mom in SL. Only the pervs do.

[Kathlen Onyx]

7 minutes ago, Denim Robonaught said:

Who says it's RP? We're just having fun

OK well that's even MORE concerning to me if you are just having Child avi's run around naked for fun and not for RP purposes.  Do you see how that sounds?  

[Denim Robonaught]

1 minute ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

OK well that's even MORE concerning to me if you are just having Child avi's run around naked for fun and not for RP purposes.  Do you see how that sounds?  

I see how you're making it sound.

[Theresa Ravenheart]

1 minute ago, Denim Robonaught said:

My kid is just a kid, an i'm a caring mother. We each have our feelings, and we each care for each other, and crazy stuff happens in our house. you just don't (always) RP such things. people also don't get that you don't neceserally RP being a kid or being a mom in SL. Only the pervs do.

I have been a child avatar and I also have adopted child avatars in my past, and yes, I loved them and saw them as my kiddo; but I was also aware that they were an adult; that doesn't stop someone from being "your kid". 

But on the forums, we are all speaking as adults, because that is what we all are. They are not helpless little kids, and shouldn't be infantilized here on the forums. 

And them being an adult isn't a feeling, it's a fact.

[Kathlen Onyx]

3 minutes ago, Denim Robonaught said:

My kid is just a kid, an i'm a caring mother. We each have our feelings, and we each care for each other, and crazy stuff happens in our house. you just don't (always) RP such things. people also don't get that you don't neceserally RP being a kid or being a mom in SL. Only the pervs do.

Ok Imma stop reading and responding to what you say because it weird to associate as a family and not call it RP.  What exactly do you think it is? Reality?

I beg to differ that only pervs RP being a kid or parent.