BilliJo Aldrin Posted December 21, 2023 Share Posted December 21, 2023 Sooner or later LL has got to realize Belli has run its course, and that anyone thats wants a Belli home has one, and most people grabbing a new Belli home just abandoned another. Now is the time to embark on a bold new venture, which i suggest be called Mainland 2.0 . Not as restrictive as Belli, with a lot more freedom, but not the wild wild west of regular mainland, which has no rules apart from the TOS. Since LL generally gives stuff away, I suggest Mainland 2.0 be in the same vein, but not limited to free tier levels. I propose LL give away as big a parcel as anyone is willing to pay tier on. Want a 4092 or even more, submit a ticket explaining where you want it, and LL will carve it out for you. The number one difference on Mainland 2.0 is that parcels cannot be bought, sold or subdivided. You receive if from LL gratis, and when you are done you abandon it. A few other possible rules: No skyboxes below 1000 m. No privacy screens allowed. Walls or fences along the parcel border can be no taller than 3m, and preferably people would be encouraged to have trees, shrubs etc for privacy. Every parcel would be roadfront, with unused interior areas used as greenways. There are lots of ways Mainland 2.0 can be made user friendly, while escaping the worst effects of mainland. Opions? Ideas? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted December 21, 2023 Share Posted December 21, 2023 4 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Sooner or later LL has got to realize Belli has run its course, and that anyone thats wants a Belli home has one, and most people grabbing a new Belli home just abandoned another. Now is the time to embark on a bold new venture, which i suggest be called Mainland 2.0 . Not as restrictive as Belli, with a lot more freedom, but not the wild wild west of regular mainland, which has no rules apart from the TOS. Since LL generally gives stuff away, I suggest Mainland 2.0 be in the same vein, but not limited to free tier levels. I propose LL give away as big a parcel as anyone is willing to pay tier on. Want a 4092 or even more, submit a ticket explaining where you want it, and LL will carve it out for you. The number one difference on Mainland 2.0 is that parcels cannot be bought, sold or subdivided. You receive if from LL gratis, and when you are done you abandon it. A few other possible rules: No skyboxes below 1000 m. No privacy screens allowed. Walls or fences along the parcel border can be no taller than 3m, and preferably people would be encouraged to have trees, shrubs etc for privacy. Every parcel would be roadfront, with unused interior areas used as greenways. There are lots of ways Mainland 2.0 can be made user friendly, while escaping the worst effects of mainland. Opions? Ideas? It is possible that more people would nab some land for the monthly tier fee if they did not have to also lay out any money for the initial purchase. Under the current Abandoned land policy, grabbing any land of 8192 sqm or larger still requires an initial outlay that is more than the monthly tier itself. Restricting the land to being abandoned when the user is finished with it does prevent anyone from gaming the system for profit. Personally, I wouldn't want road front land though. I'd rather have an interior location. However, this just doesn't solve the current issue of large amounts of mainland being empty and abandoned -- and possibly just propagates the issue to another batch of land. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted December 21, 2023 Author Share Posted December 21, 2023 30 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: It is possible that more people would nab some land for the monthly tier fee if they did not have to also lay out any money for the initial purchase. Under the current Abandoned land policy, grabbing any land of 8192 sqm or larger still requires an initial outlay that is more than the monthly tier itself. Restricting the land to being abandoned when the user is finished with it does prevent anyone from gaming the system for profit. Personally, I wouldn't want road front land though. I'd rather have an interior location. However, this just doesn't solve the current issue of large amounts of mainland being empty and abandoned -- and possibly just propagates the issue to another batch of land. having to purchase mainland is the biggest impediment to people getting land. If it was free, many more people would get mainland. LL gives houses, both 512’s and 1024’s for free, its time to do the same with mainland. They owe tier once they take posession, so its not like LL is losing money over it. You don’t buy it, so you cant sell it. It would be great if when u get tired of a parcel, you abandon it and pick up up a new one, just like Linden Homes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted December 21, 2023 Author Share Posted December 21, 2023 Just to clarify, Mainland 2.0 wouldnt replace mainland, it would just be a new product, a new offering to those that want a larger place but dont want the chaos of current mainland. Perhaps LL could do a test, maybe a dozen sims, put in roads, subdivide it into (for example) 4096’s, and watch the people snap them up. No gouging land flippers, no annoying giant parcel screens, no skyboxes in sight, no micro parcels anywhere, just people building their own little homes on new improved Mainland 2.0 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted December 21, 2023 Share Posted December 21, 2023 (edited) Maybe limit mainland 2.0 to 16sqm parcels, so everyone is equal. No combining parcels, but you can use adjoining parcels. Microparcels for all!! Edited December 21, 2023 by Love Zhaoying 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Mote Posted December 21, 2023 Share Posted December 21, 2023 (edited) Bellisseria and the so-called pink pound are the major parts of Second Life being someone's cash cow, no more no less. Premium subscriptions are the revenue stream. You get a minimum free 512m of mainland(and/or Belli) tier when you set up a subscription. Land itself is dirt cheap, you just have to file a support ticket, it's all pretty low effort. Years ago Linden Lab had this bright idea to shift towards a 2.0 platform called Sansar and brought in a new CEO from Yahoo to manage this, it all went nowhere. Literally. Meta and the rest are having similar issues with going nowhere, there's little public interest in virtual reality or any metaverse outside of media hype. As in zilch. LL doesn't even have a CEO now. People can still buy estate regions and run them without abilities to resell and all the other rules they want. This is included as part of LL's product offerings. LL is extremely unlikely to offer this for free, least of all as a new product. Edited December 21, 2023 by Ineffable Mote 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamond Marchant Posted December 21, 2023 Share Posted December 21, 2023 5 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Sooner or later LL has got to realize Belli has run its course, and that anyone thats wants a Belli home has one, and most people grabbing a new Belli home just abandoned another. Now is the time to embark on a bold new venture, which i suggest be called Mainland 2.0 . Perhaps you are confusing your opinions (based on your own experience) with actual analysis of real data about resident behavior and Linden Lab financials. My own opinion is that it is a miracle that Second Life still exists, which I assume is because it is privately owned and laser focused on having a positive cash flow. This means LL has a limited ability to do new things as they need to keep expenses down and not borrow money. I also assume that the new stuff they will release in 2024 is intended to increase revenues and/or lower expenses. About mainland, I have owned there since 2009 and now occupy parcels in three locations. Mainland works fine for me, warts and all. I have 4 Linden Homes (3 on water) and think that Bellisseria is an incredible value, which perhaps accounts for it's popularity. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted December 21, 2023 Share Posted December 21, 2023 6 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Sooner or later LL has got to realize Belli has run its course Is this "The Sky Is Falling!"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 They will eventually need to refresh Belli, and it must be close to sating demand at this point. Unless the mobile viewer suddenly generates a bunch more Bellisserians, somebody needs a new source of revenue growth. Mainland may be one opportunity, but I think the old Linden Homes continents might be a lower risk place to experiment. They need to preserve the parcels still occupied but redesign around them for 1024s and maybe 2048s, all no split/join, no selling, but maybe try letting people build what they want on the land rather like the fixed-layout Mainland cities, with a mostly Bellli-derived covenant (height constraints, orb limits, etc). Some modest prim bonus (1.25? 1.5?), whatever they can spare after losing the old prim+sculpt houses and replacing the landscaping with fresh PBR Mole stuff. Those mini-continents need to be "solved" sooner or later, may as well try something a little different; some might apply to abandoned Mainland later. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elleevelyn Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Now is the time to embark on a bold new venture, which i suggest be called Mainland 2.0 what you describing is Belli Plus. Landscaped covenanted estate without the Linden Homes. Residents can put their own homes on their parcel provided home style conforms to the covenant this Belli Plus was discussed on the forums when the Belli project started. Linden did say at the time was interesting thought, but lets get the planned estate up and running with your addition that residents can claim any amount of parcels they are willing to pay tier for, then I think rentals would be disallowed, as LDPW end up becoming the landscape gardeners for private rental estate companies, while at the same time Linden would collect less tier from these than from private regions where the LDPW does not do landscaping Edited December 22, 2023 by elleevelyn followon 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elleevelyn Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 46 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: the old Linden Homes continents might be a lower risk place to experiment this came up on the forums in the way back. I can't remember now whether was Quartz Mole or Abnor Mole who said, retrofitting a whole estate is lot more work than is building a new one from scratch Patch Linden, as I remember, has also said on more than one occasion that when the time comes, the old Linden Homes continents are going to be sunk into the void And any few remaining residents will be relocated to Belli. He did say also that Linden had no timeline for doing this, but it was their (Linden) expected outcome 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Marques Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, elleevelyn said: when the time comes, the old Linden Homes continents are going to be sunk into the void And any few remaining residents will be relocated to Belli. He did say also that Linden had no timeline for doing this, but it was their (Linden) expected outcome That is sad if it's true. I hope they preserve some special regions located in the old Linden Homes continent, such as Blendard (http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Blendard/181/111/64) and Threesun (http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Threesun/149/88/41) they are nicely crafted protected areas with mysteries and hidden areas to explore. Sure, a point could be made that the objects used there look outdated by today's standards, but they're a part of SL history (for those who care about that) and fun places to visit. I'll post some photos here for those who haven't visited these regions Blendard Blendard - Hidden Area Threesun Threesun - Hidden Area Black cloak and the Threesun pin, prizes for solving the mystery. Probably wishful thinking on my part, but maybe regions like these two could be moved elsewhere if all of the old Linden Homes get deleted at some point. Something to consider... or not. Edited December 22, 2023 by Clem Marques 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elleevelyn Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Clem Marques said: I hope they preserve some special regions located in the old Linden Homes continent ... they're a part of SL history i would be supportive of this. Patch Linden might be as well, as he is quite strong on the Second Life Historical Preservation Programme i think a good place for ?6 or 9? regions preserving a Linden Homes Historical Museum could be to the northeast of Linden Village, the area north of Beaumont and east of Denby i think too that there be more than one Mole who would be happy to do a project like this Edited December 22, 2023 by elleevelyn gah double everything at the mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 4 hours ago, elleevelyn said: this came up on the forums in the way back. I can't remember now whether was Quartz Mole or Abnor Mole who said, retrofitting a whole estate is lot more work than is building a new one from scratch Patch Linden, as I remember, has also said on more than one occasion that when the time comes, the old Linden Homes continents are going to be sunk into the void And any few remaining residents will be relocated to Belli. He did say also that Linden had no timeline for doing this, but it was their (Linden) expected outcome Yeah, I'm sure it is more work to retrofit a whole estate (or even worse, large portions of regions scattered across an estate) than to crank out more subdivisions in styles just different enough to distinguish with the naked eye. And I guess the Lindens are in a position to simply flush whole mini-continents like that when it's the cost-effective approach, so maybe that problem already has its solution. That also has the virtue of removing supply when demand has shifted elsewhere, rather than continuing to add ever more sparsely-populated landmass to the grid. Estate islands have the same advantage of simply blinking out one region at a time when they're obsolete. About saving regions of historical interest, I've often thought preservation could be a lot more aggressive if the entire collection didn't need to be on exhibit at the same time. Every week a curated selection of historically significant regions could be started together as a destination exhibit. Some Mole effort would go into constructing the exhibits from the regions in the collection, but then the exhibits could rotate through the calendar. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted December 22, 2023 Author Share Posted December 22, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, Ineffable Mote said: Bellisseria and the so-called pink pound are the major parts of Second Life being someone's cash cow, no more no less. Premium subscriptions are the revenue stream. You get a minimum free 512m of mainland(and/or Belli) tier when you set up a subscription. Land itself is dirt cheap, you just have to file a support ticket, it's all pretty low effort. Years ago Linden Lab had this bright idea to shift towards a 2.0 platform called Sansar and brought in a new CEO from Yahoo to manage this, it all went nowhere. Literally. Meta and the rest are having similar issues with going nowhere, there's little public interest in virtual reality or any metaverse outside of media hype. As in zilch. LL doesn't even have a CEO now. People can still buy estate regions and run them without abilities to resell and all the other rules they want. This is included as part of LL's product offerings. LL is extremely unlikely to offer this for free, least of all as a new product. Sansar was a joke from day one. It was doomed to fail. And all it ever was was a hosting platform, so others could set out their content. It would and could never be a replacement for second life. And, my bad, I thought land tier was the main revenue stream. Not sure where free comes in. LL creates a new sim, with Mainland 2.0 rules, runs a road through it, subdivides 8 roadfront 4096's, and tells residents come and get them. Put in a ticket, or get one through the dashboard whichever works better. The minute a resident claims one, they owe a months tier. Eight 4096's is the equivalent of full tier of a mainland sim. the new Mainland 2.0 sims will fill up as fast as LL can set them out. But, we will never find out will we? Edited December 22, 2023 by BilliJo Aldrin added a line, added another line 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted December 22, 2023 Author Share Posted December 22, 2023 Oh, and the rest of the sq meters on the mainland 2.0 sims? Behind the 4096 roadfronts? Let sim residents put in a ticket to get as much extra as they want, its all good, they get them free, but their tier jumps to the next level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 22 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: And, my bad, I thought land tier was the main revenue stream. I wish we still had economic data to know what the actual income sources are now. The last we had were from before the Lab even owned Marketplace, so L$ sources and sinks were close to balanced without the Lab needing to sell all that much on the LindeX. Now it's totally different: those L$-denominated Marketplace commissions represent a huge sink, meaning that to maintain money supply a substantial share of LindeX sales must be Supply Linden's. That's real revenue now, but I don't see how to even begin estimating its relative scale compared to Land and Subscriptions (and, I suppose, the Tilia taxes). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elleevelyn Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 31 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Eight 4096's is the equivalent of full tier of a mainland sim. the new Mainland 2.0 sims will fill up as fast as LL can set them out. these will get snapped up by whole region rental agencies. For $US103 (32k) tier you get the use of the whole region for your tenants - free landscaping included. For $US175 you get effective use of 2 regions. Scale up and get 21 regions for 10 regions worth of tier at this pricing the private estate regions market will probably tank completely. Private regions are the biggest tier payers by way far. I can't see Linden imperiling this ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted December 22, 2023 Author Share Posted December 22, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, elleevelyn said: these will get snapped up by whole region rental agencies. For $US103 (32k) tier you get the use of the whole region for your tenants - free landscaping included. For $US175 you get effective use of 2 regions. Scale up and get 21 regions for 10 regions worth of tier at this pricing the private estate regions market will probably tank completely. Private regions are the biggest tier payers by way far. I can't see Linden imperiling this ever I have no idea where you get that $US103 number from. Perhaps you can explain it. I guess they make it like Linden Homes then, only one per account. I'm offering suggestions, obviously i've not considered all the possibilities. All I do know is, is that many people would love to own a 4096 on mainland, but they are put off by a) the upfront cost, and b) the possibility someone will move in next door and put up a horrible eyesore, making it impossible to stay and impossible sell and move on. Mainland 2.0 offers a safe alternative to regular mainland. Edited December 22, 2023 by BilliJo Aldrin added stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 (edited) I don't see the benefits of making the land free to purchase, outweighing risks. More realistic perhaps than a mainland 2.0 would be to complete Zindra, and add in a Horizons 2.0 perhaps with a more restrictive covenant in terms of what can be built and security systems. The value of land and occupancy rates there indicate demand for that sort of development remains. Edited December 22, 2023 by Aethelwine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted December 22, 2023 Author Share Posted December 22, 2023 1 minute ago, Aethelwine said: I don't see the benefits of making the land free to purchase, outweighing risks. More realistic perhaps than a mainland 2.0 would be to complete Zindra, and add in a Horizons 2.0 perhaps with a more restrictive covenant in terms of what can be built and security systems. Free to purchase, along with the rules governing Mainland 2.0 would make it a very attractive alternative to regular mainland. You don't buy your Linden Home, you don't buy land on a private estate, both are "free to buy". Can't buy it, can't sell it, easy to walk away from because there is no monetary investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 1 minute ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Free to purchase, along with the rules governing Mainland 2.0 would make it a very attractive alternative to regular mainland. You don't buy your Linden Home, you don't buy land on a private estate, both are "free to buy". Can't buy it, can't sell it, easy to walk away from because there is no monetary investment. I see the attraction for us, just not for the Linden's having to police the resale and rental market. It would also damage existing revenue streams. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elleevelyn Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 (edited) 42 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: I have no idea where you get that $US103 number from. Perhaps you can explain it. I guess they make it like Linden Homes then, only one per account. I'm offering suggestions, obviously i've not considered all the possibilities. 1/2 region tier is $US103. mainland tier pricing schedule here: https://secondlife.com/land/pricing when you said drive a road thru the region and put 8 4096m parcels on it then costs 1/2.region tier to claim all 8 parcels (effectively the whole region), which the big landlords will be right into for sure, if rentals are allowed i understand that you exploring ideas, is just that this is not a new subject. 20 years on these forums - and its predecessors - these kinds of things have been discussed many times. So while I might seem to be raining on you, I don't mean it that way. I am just imparting too you the years long collective exchange of ideas and thoughts. Many of the things I might say on these topics haven't come out of my own head. The come from the collective wisdom of the forums and I am just passing this on and tbf to Linden they have done this in parts of mainland, Nautilus City and Bay City for example. Should Linden do more of this on existing mainland ? I think so. The interesting thing in the few built up areas like those mentioned, the residents do tend to stay in theme even with the standard mainland covenant Edited December 22, 2023 by elleevelyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted December 22, 2023 Author Share Posted December 22, 2023 4 minutes ago, Aethelwine said: I see the attraction for us, just not for the Linden's having to police the resale and rental market. It would also damage existing revenue streams. It would be no harder for LL than its current dealings with Linden Homes. And doesn't LL homes damage the revenue streams for small mainland parcels? When LL homes were first introduced, didn't people scream no fair, it will destroy land sales on mainland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elleevelyn Posted December 22, 2023 Share Posted December 22, 2023 2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: About saving regions of historical interest, I've often thought preservation could be a lot more aggressive if the entire collection didn't need to be on exhibit at the same time. Every week a curated selection of historically significant regions could be started together as a destination exhibit. Some Mole effort would go into constructing the exhibits from the regions in the collection, but then the exhibits could rotate through the calendar. i like this idea quite a lot 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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