PBR WOW!

[SandorWren]

6 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

That sort of dances around the point I was making.

If we say "Like [insert MMO game here], SL can benefit from [insert technology here]", certain residents will argue against it because, as previously quoted, they want nothing to do with a game.

Not because the technology is bad, if they even understand it at all, but because a game did it and SL isn't a game.

I can guarantee you, my SL has NOT been a game. But there really is no choice with the technology. I couldn't care less what LL uses to make it work. They can use all the game engines they want. That won't affect my SL at all. SL is just the phone, not the conversation.

[Theresa Tennyson]

10 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

That's how SL works, the server sends UDP packets telling your viewer what's in front of you and with in draw distance, what it's uuid is, what textures it uses, what their uuid's are, colours, gloss/env settings, and now a whole new bunch for PBR.

It's called the "interest list".

If you checked the forums , you might even find the numerous threads, with posts by Linden devs, talking about interest lists, and why they havn't been recieved reliably for months, causing that whole "I teleported to location x and the buildings were there, i could walk into them, but they were invisible" complaints.

People like @animats and various Linden techs have posted on this. Try and keep up.

You mean like how they posted that textures are delivered by HTTP now and they were surprised to discover that UDP delivery is still around but only as a glacially-slow fallback? As in, "HTTP from Svalbard would be faster"?

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

I mean, any time any change is suggested, either for fundamental parts of the viewer or grid, or new features, these same arguments come up. Doesn't matter what the change is, it's always the same argument. That it's going to drive everyone off the grid because it lags all the computers and SL isn't a game so we shouldn't copy anything games do.

Every time.

I too haven't seen the "it's not a game so we shouldn't use gaming technology" argument. If new or existing tech will make SL better, then of course we should use it, regardless of whether it's coming from Roboblox, Skyrim, or GTA.

What I suppose I have seen is the suggestion that the focus on high-quality graphics reflects the priorities of a certain segment of SL users who happen to be gamers, and who are used to, and particularly interested in, "realism" or shiny graphics.

And that it seems to me is a legitimate point, because the argument then revolves around priorities: should LL be more focused trying to bring the platform closer to Triple A gaming graphics standards, or should they instead be devoting their limited resources to fixing things that are broken or hobbled, improving communications tools, etc. In other words, it's not really about whether LL should be using games as a tech paradigm, and more about . . . which of these priorities will make SL more usable and attractive to new users?

I myself want to see these balanced. I would of course like better graphics, especially for photos. But it's the people, not the visuals, that really make SL (figuratively and literally), so communications tools and a platform stable enough that people can use it to interact and engage with others and the environment well are vitally important too.

With regard to the "driving people off the grid" thing . . . well, if one of the points of improved graphics is to attract new residents, it's rather counterproductive to raise the tech threshold to the point that existing users are driven away.

I honestly doubt a great many non-SL users are going to be rubbing their hands in glee, excited to at last try the platform because it's using PBR. But if there are those here now who find the platform unusable, well . . . that's a quantifiable loss.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I too haven't seen the "it's not a game so we shouldn't use gaming technology" argument. If new or existing tech will make SL better, then of course we should use it, regardless of whether it's coming from Roboblox, Skyrim, or GTA.

If "shouldn't" were true, maybe we wouldn't have the mesh avatar..mess (?)..ok, "learning curve".

[Paul Hexem]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

should LL be more focused trying to bring the platform closer to Triple A gaming graphics standards, or should they instead be devoting their limited resources to fixing things that are broken or hobbled, improving communications tools, etc.

See, I think that's what's getting overlooked.

Those two goals aren't generally separate goals. Many of the things in SL that are broken would be fixed, or at least improved, by adopting gaming industry standards.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If "shouldn't" were true, maybe we wouldn't have the mesh avatar..mess (?)..ok, "learning curve".

Well, the additional complication that is somewhat overlooked in the rush to adopt technologies from very different kinds of platforms is that almost all content here is user-generated.

What works well in a FPS that is designed by huge teams of specialist developers ain't necessarily going to work so well when we ask hundreds of mostly hobbyists to implement it. Mesh "works" here, but it's more than a bit of a mess for precisely that reason.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Paul Hexem said:

See, I think that's what's getting overlooked.

Those two goals aren't generally separate goals. Many of the things in SL that are broken would be fixed, or at least improved, by adopting gaming industry standards.

Right. I don't see how any sensible person could cavil at importing technologies from games that will address priority needs on this platform.

The question is . . . how high a "priority" is PBR, relative to things like broken group chat, etc.?

[Flea Yatsenko]

Given the usage of spec norm you'd see around the grid after all these years, I think PBR is more of a "spec/norm failed so we're going to try something more modern." I'd argue spec/norm failed, it's not used very often and a lot of times people don't read the wiki page and they use it wrongly.

I don't think PBR is gonna be popular for a long time anyways. Getting PBR into the hands of users depends almost entirely on SLMP and search. So good luck with that.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, the additional complication that is somewhat overlooked in the rush to adopt technologies from very different kinds of platforms is that almost all content here is user-generated.

..doesn't mean SL couldn't have given guidance and a "universal interface" standard for more things. Just sayin'!

 

[Paul Hexem]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Right. I don't see how any sensible person could cavil at importing technologies from games that will address priority needs on this platform.

The question is . . . how high a "priority" is PBR, relative to things like broken group chat, etc.?

From what I understand, the PBR change is a tack on fix, whereas the chat system needs to be replaced entirely to even start fixing it. It's certainly the easier of the two. Since we know LL is adverse to hard work, it makes sense. I'm happy to see them doing anything modern on the platform.

On top of that, I think someone already mentioned "end of year bonus" for some exec who wants SL to look prettier for mobile advertising.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

..doesn't mean SL couldn't have given guidance and a "universal interface" standard for more things. Just sayin'!

 

Agreed, and this is precisely what I've argued for in terms of mapping for mesh body parts. I think it's stupid, wasteful, and counterproductive that we now have, what, 4 different standards for mapping mesh heads -- the standard SL map, EvoX, Catwa Pro, and now Genus. It means that skin creators, for instance, now have to do either multiple mapped versions, OR that one system (clearly in this instance EvoX) wins out, creating a situation where one private proprietor essentially controls the industry standard across the platform.

What LL should have done, or even maybe still do, is sit down with creators and hammered out a common standard.

[SandorWren]

21 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I too haven't seen the "it's not a game so we shouldn't use gaming technology" argument. If new or existing tech will make SL better, then of course we should use it, regardless of whether it's coming from Roboblox, Skyrim, or GTA.

I have never seen this argument either. I didn't say anything, because I haven't been in SL as long as many here have been. I personally don't think what engine SL uses will make any difference to how a person perceives SL I know it won't for me.

[SandorWren]

15 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Many of the things in SL that are broken would be fixed, or at least improved, by adopting gaming industry standards.

I'm all for this!!! That doesn't detract from what SL is, it just improves it.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What LL should have done, or even maybe still do, is sit down with creators and hammered out a common standard.

"We'll always have BOM".

Just like we thought we'd always have WindLight.

Just like we thought we'd always have EEP.

..Maybe in 10-15 years, PBR will be replaced by the next thing!

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

24 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Agreed, and this is precisely what I've argued for in terms of mapping for mesh body parts. I think it's stupid, wasteful, and counterproductive that we now have, what, 4 different standards for mapping mesh heads -- the standard SL map, EvoX, Catwa Pro, and now Genus. It means that skin creators, for instance, now have to do either multiple mapped versions, OR that one system (clearly in this instance EvoX) wins out, creating a situation where one private proprietor essentially controls the industry standard across the platform.

What LL should have done, or even maybe still do, is sit down with creators and hammered out a common standard.

There is a standard. It's the original SL avatar mapping. That's what LL uses on Senra heads. 

But some others had different ideas. So now, do you want LL to ban other mappings?

[Paul Hexem]

3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

So now, do you want LL to ban other mappings?

Not a terrible idea. Standardization is a good thing.

It's always better for the consumers, anyway. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

16 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

So now, do you want LL to ban other mappings?

"Ban" them? Please, who said that?

Why, that sounds like "Communism"!!!!! 😮

No, of course not.

What IS clear is that the standard SL avatar mapping is no longer adequate. It was not, after all, designed for mesh bodies in the first place, and the fact that consumers want a different standard is readily apparent from the way in which EvoX now totally dominates the market.

In other words, it's absolutely clear that the SLUV is no longer good enough.

So -- crazy idea, but hear me out! -- what if LL worked cooperatively with mesh and skin creators to produce a new and higher resolution standard, maybe even based on EvoX, so that we didn't have four competing systems, and skin, makeup, and tattoo makers didn't have to waste their time producing two or three or four different versions of the same thing -- or hand a proprietary monopoly to just one creator.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What IS clear is that the standard SL avatar mapping is no longer adequate. It was not, after all, designed for mesh bodies in the first place, and the fact that consumers want a different standard is readily apparent from the way in which EvoX now totally dominates the market.

In other words, it's absolutely clear that the SLUV is no longer good enough.

Sez who? EvoX? Yes it dominates the market and I use it but doesn't mean I like it. Too many sacrifices for its benefits. Extra inventory, lack of compatibility, looks like crap when first loading etc.

[Qie Niangao]

29 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

On top of that, I think someone already mentioned "end of year bonus" for some exec who wants SL to look prettier for mobile advertising.

I muttered something about bonuses, yeah, but I really don't think the hypothetical "PBR bonus" would be entirely about polishing up SL's appearance, and maybe more about lining up creators to be using more "standard" materials which in the long run means content that's easier to port in and out of SL, a bit like mesh is more platform-permeable than prims.

(The old Blinn-Phong spec/norm materials aren't a complete dead end—I see some in the same repositories as glTF materials—but I get the unschooled impression that glTF has wider utility outside SL, and even though it's been around a while, it appears to be growing. Again, just a naive impression.)

Mostly, though, I hypothesized a "bonus" for making tangible, quantifiable progress towards achieving an objective that was set long ago. To me it seems a justified objective, and anyway just getting on with it seems preferable to it taking its own sweet time.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Sez who?

***

Yes it dominates the market

I think you have answered your own question here.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think you have answered your own question here.

Well that is the thing, I wasn't asking a question and the same goes for the topic of the thread in that I didn't ask for PBR and from what I see it has dubious benefits that come at a cost, not least of which is the increased learning and adoption curve.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well that is the thing, I wasn't asking a question and the same goes for the topic of the thread in that I didn't ask for PBR and from what I see it has dubious benefits that come at a cost, not least of which is the increased learning and adoption curve.

Well, none of us -- except possibly a small cadre of elite creators / coders in SL who are tight with LL (the FIC RULES!!!!) -- is ever "asked."

One of the reasons I think that producing a common standard for such things as mesh avatar UVs would be good is precisely because it would increase the amount of consultation before these sorts of decisions are made.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, none of us -- except possibly a small cadre of elite creators / coders in SL who are tight with LL (the FIC RULES!!!!) -- is ever "asked."

One of the reasons I think that producing a common standard for such things as mesh avatar UVs would be good is precisely because it would increase the amount of consultation before these sorts of decisions are made.

And an unwillingness to do consultation with residents is why the Lindens are probably discouraged from reading and participating in the Forums. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

And an unwillingness to do consultation with residents is why the Lindens are probably discouraged from reading and participating in the Forums. 

Why would you think they are "discouraged"? I doubt that is the case -- and sometimes they do.

I rather suspect it's more that most Lindens would find the reading here dreary and depressing.

God knows, sometimes I do. 🙃

[AmeliaJ08]

1 hour ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

I'd argue spec/norm failed, it's not used very often

I see it everywhere? like... most/all good quality clothes are, hairstyles, a lot of furniture...

Don't see it so much on buildings though I guess which is a little silly, definitely present with a lot of them though which is nice.