Sid Nagy Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 1 minute ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: no , they are the same, you either let LL bill your credit card for tier every month, or you use your credit card to buy Lindens to pay rent to your landlord. Either way, your credit card statement will say Linden Lab X dollars stop pretending tier to LL and rent to an estate is something different, because it isn’t Land barons keep a (small) percentage of the rent. The rest goes to the tier bill they have to pay to the Lab every month. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) 34 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: no , they are the same, you either let LL bill your credit card for tier every month, or you use your credit card to buy Lindens to pay rent to your landlord. Either way, your credit card statement will say Linden Lab X dollars stop pretending tier to LL and rent to an estate is something different, because it isn’t I guess they're the same the way buying a chicken is like buying a domain name: they both involve paying somebody for something. I thought the whole point of Mainland 2.0 was to make it different from Mainland by getting rid of that up-front charge and removing the ability to resell the land, as with Linden Homes and Estates, so I don't understand how it advances that argument by claiming that there's already no difference. If the idea is that the market should not value Mainland at all, there should be nobody willing to pay up-front for it with the expectation they may be able to recover some of that cost at resale, that's just denying the existence of a market that still exists despite competition from the Belli model now and earlier from Estates. I agree there's currently way too much Mainland supply for that market, so repurposing some of it for a new model is an interesting prospect, but doing away with the buy-to-resell model wouldn't come close to satisfying all customers of SL's Land product. Edited March 14 by Qie Niangao correct confusing "denying no difference" double negative 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said: I guess they're the same the way buying a chicken is like buying a domain name: they both involve paying somebody for something. I thought the whole point of Mainland 2.0 was to make it different from Mainland by getting rid of that up-front charge and removing the ability to resell the land, as with Linden Homes and Estates, so I don't understand how it advances that argument by claiming that there's already no difference. If the idea is that the market should not value Mainland at all, there should be nobody willing to pay up-front for it with the expectation they may be able to recover some of that cost at resale, that's just denying the existence of a market that still exists despite competition from the Belli model now and earlier from Estates. I agree there's currently way too much Mainland supply for that market, so repurposing some of it for a new model is an interesting prospect, but doing away with the buy-to-resell model wouldn't come close to satisfying all customers of SL's Land product. there will AWAYS be a place for mainland, with parcel buying and selling. Current mainland isn’t going anywhere, or changing in any way. It will be business as usual for flippers. Its only on mainland 2.0 that LL offers a new product. Claim one 4096 at no charge, just like you can claim a LL home at no charge. Since you didnt buy it, you cant sell it, only abandon it and pick out another if you so choose. On the page where you select your 4096 there will be in big bold text “Claiming this parcel will increase your landholdings and make you liable for any tier over your free allowance. Do you wish to priceed?” This will not affect any current products being offered, either by estate holders, land flippers, or LL itself. Hope this clears things up for you 😁 Edited March 14 by BilliJo Aldrin spelling, added stuff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) 6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: I guess they're the same the way buying a chicken is like buying a domain name: they both involve paying somebody for something. Mainland tier and private land rent is basically the same. Only private land has a middle man (the land baron) who takes a small percentage as their fee. The rest goes to The Lab just like the tier of mainland. There is no big difference, like you try to create. 6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: thought the whole point of Mainland 2.0 was to make it different from Mainland by getting rid of that up-front charge and removing the ability to resell the land, as with Linden Homes and Estates, so I don't understand how it advances that argument by claiming that there's already no difference. When LL would decide to start mainland 2.0 they could change the way of charging tier too for mainland 2.0, while keeping the old mainland tier system as it is. There are other tier systems possible than the current tier system too. More like how private land is organized. No more levels of tier: Just pay a month upfront for the amount of land you actually get. Just like estate land does, but then directly to the Lab. Not per calendar month, just per week\4 weeks on the date you start the lease. With tier meters. If you don't pay on time, the land is cleaned and put up for a next user. No hassle, no bans and stuff needed. one would be "owner" of the land the minute one pays the tier box the first tier and stay the owner as long as the tier box has hours or days left on the ticker. Big difference: payment only in USD because L$ have no real value for the Lab as the one who prints the L$. Edited March 14 by Sid Nagy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) 7 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Its the fear that a dumpster fire could start next door the day after they pay a flipper thousands that causes many premium members to stick with estates. This is a very legitimate fear, especially with your "free" land model. I can imagine some newbie "buying" land (free or cheap), without realizing that the true cost of owning land is the tier payments. They put some God-awful build and junk all over their land, such as packaging boxes and crap that spews particles and sound. The long-term neighbor has to put up with this crap (if they don't know how to derender it all). The newbie gets hit with a tier bill, abandons their land, and then the next newbie does the same thing. Rinse and repeat. At least having to pay upfront for land will make newbies think twice before buying it. 7 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: no , they are the same, you either let LL bill your credit card for tier every month, or you use your credit card to buy Lindens to pay rent to your landlord. Either way, your credit card statement will say Linden Lab X dollars stop pretending tier to LL and rent to an estate is something different, because it isn’t Purchasing an annual Premium account saves one from having to pay constant fees to buy lindens to pay their rent. Edited March 14 by Persephone Emerald 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: I guess they're the same the way buying a chicken is like buying a domain name: they both involve paying somebody for something. It's more like buying a chicken vs. buying eggs. If one buys a chicken, they're insured that they'll have "free eggs" (a place to live and rez stuff in SL), but they'll also need to buy a chicken coop and feed (tier payments). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) 7 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Thats what ive said all along, if LL would give land away like estates do, cutting out the land flippers, a lot more people would choose mainland over an estate. So what? Estate owners pay Linden Lab too, and they're more financially reliable than someone who gets a "free" mainland parcel and puts up a store selling 12-year-old affiliate vendor clothes or a bot-farm "club" and who then realizes the next month that their "business plan" needs work so they bail out. Edited March 14 by Theresa Tennyson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 5 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: So what? Estate owners pay Linden Lab too, and they're more financially reliable than someone who gets a "free" mainland parcel and puts up a store selling 12-year-old affiliate vendor clothes or a bot-farm "club" and who then realizes the next month that their "business plan" needs work so they bail out. The plus side would be large chunks of themed land. Just like Bellisseria, but then without the mandatory choice of a very limited number. Junk sellers stay on Mainland 1.0 just like they are now because they have free or grandfathered land. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 51 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said: Mainland tier and private land rent is basically the same. Only private land has a middle man (the land baron) who takes a small percentage as their fee. The rest goes to The Lab just like the tier of mainland. There is no big difference, like you try to create. I mean, yeah, they're both payments that go mostly to the Lab, but they're buying different things, which I took you to deny by claiming it was delusional to pay for mainland. They'd only be buying (almost) the same thing if mainland couldn't be resold, which is how it works for estates, Linden Homes, and the hypothetical Mainland 2.0. As long as there's reasonable prospect of selling the mainland one buys, it's simply a different commodity. It's not that I'm arguing it's a good "investment" or anything—in one of these threads I recently called Mainland an anachronism—but it's still not delusional to pay for it. Also, at least for some Mainland, there's a reason for that "reasonable prospect" of somebody buying the land on resale: it's not as interchangeable as a parcel on Belli or a typical residential estate. Some folks want the predictability that comes with that kind of uniformity—Belli is a huge success because it offers just the right amount of customization for many (many) SL residents. But the "sense of place" of a Belli parcel is very attenuated compared to much Mainland where one parcel is remarkably distinct from all others; not surprisingly, those parts best retained value through Belli's growth (so far). I don't think anybody knows how much distinctiveness a Mainland 2.0 should have, at the cost of less predictability. Would that market want to bring their own structures as on mainland, where the neighbor's choice might be a little too "distinctive"? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) I think Mainland 2.0 could have a lot of individual freedom in the choice of what to do with the land. One should only stay in theme of the region. And some things should simply not be allowed, just like in Belli. Of course what would exactly be in the covenant and what not is always arbitrary. Mainland 2.0 should IMHO fill the gab between traditional mainland's anarchy and Bellisseria's strict housing policy. Edited March 14 by Sid Nagy 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnilWay SpiritWeaver Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) 8 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: I thought the whole point of Mainland 2.0 was to make it different from Mainland by getting rid of that up-front charge and removing the ability to resell the land, as with Linden Homes and Estates, so I don't understand how it advances that argument by claiming that there's already no difference. Well Mainland 2.0 doesn't exist as a product. It's just a forum thread discussing something some folks wish was a product. If they ever did a new mainland - who knows what it would be. Probably a little of what we want combined with a whole lot of what we don't. Edited March 14 by UnilWay SpiritWeaver 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 2 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said: This is a very legitimate fear, especially with your "free" land model. I can imagine some newbie "buying" land (free or cheap), without realizing that the true cost of owning land is the tier payments. They put some God-awful build and junk all over their land, such as packaging boxes and crap that spews particles and sound. The long-term neighbor has to put up with this crap (if they don't know how to derender it all). The newbie gets hit with a tier bill, abandons their land, and then the next newbie does the same thing. Rinse and repeat. At least having to pay upfront for land will make newbies think twice before buying it. Purchasing an annual Premium account saves one from having to pay constant fees to buy lindens to pay their rent. Its not free land, Its zero purchase price, you pay tier just like any other piece of mainland you take posession of. Land on estates is free too. If you don't pay your tier, your account is suspended. What would happen if you blighted your parcel on Belli? Mainland 2.0 will have rules to prevent the sort of things you describe. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 1 hour ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said: Well Mainland 2.0 doesn't exist as a product. It's just a forum thread discussing something some folks wish was a product. If they ever did a new mainland - who knows what it would be. Probably a little of what we want combined with a whole lot of what we don't. Well as long as current mainland still exists, I doubt I would ever move to mainland 2.0. I prefer a free for all dumpster fire. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said: I think Mainland 2.0 could have a lot of individual freedom in the choice of what to do with the land. One should only stay in theme of the region. And some things should simply not be allowed, just like in Belli. Of course what would exactly be in the covenant and what not is always arbitrary. Mainland 2.0 should IMHO fill the gab between traditional mainland's anarchy and Bellisseria's strict housing policy. Exactly, that's what I have been saying all along. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: I mean, yeah, they're both payments that go mostly to the Lab, but they're buying different things, which I took you to deny by claiming it was delusional to pay for mainland. They'd only be buying (almost) the same thing if mainland couldn't be resold, which is how it works for estates, Linden Homes, and the hypothetical Mainland 2.0. As long as there's reasonable prospect of selling the mainland one buys, it's simply a different commodity. It's not that I'm arguing it's a good "investment" or anything—in one of these threads I recently called Mainland an anachronism—but it's still not delusional to pay for it. Also, at least for some Mainland, there's a reason for that "reasonable prospect" of somebody buying the land on resale: it's not as interchangeable as a parcel on Belli or a typical residential estate. Some folks want the predictability that comes with that kind of uniformity—Belli is a huge success because it offers just the right amount of customization for many (many) SL residents. But the "sense of place" of a Belli parcel is very attenuated compared to much Mainland where one parcel is remarkably distinct from all others; not surprisingly, those parts best retained value through Belli's growth (so far). I don't think anybody knows how much distinctiveness a Mainland 2.0 should have, at the cost of less predictability. Would that market want to bring their own structures as on mainland, where the neighbor's choice might be a little too "distinctive"? I never said it was delusional to pay for mainland. Every mainland parcel I own I paid top dollar for, and will probably sell for at a loss when I move on. If you don't like the neighbors architecture, then simply abandon the parcel and choose another one. That's the beauty of it, you aren't stuck trying to unload a parcel and get some of your money back 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 6 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: I never said it was delusional to pay for mainland. No, I was responding to Sid: 11 hours ago, Sid Nagy said: There is so much free land on estates, people on mainland are fooling themselves by still asking (and paying) money for their land IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 Just now, Qie Niangao said: No, I was responding to Sid: my bad, sorry 😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) 9 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: If you don't like the neighbors architecture, then simply abandon the parcel and choose another one. That's the beauty of it, you aren't stuck trying to unload a parcel and get some of your money back That is exactly what I always do on estate land. No big deal. I wait a few weeks if the neighbor will move, during that time I no longer feed the rental box with fresh L$. If the junk building neighbor is gone before the ticker is at zero, I stay and pay that rental box again. If not I simply move to another region from the same or another trustworthy baron. That principle should be one of the features of a Mainland 2.0 too. Edited March 14 by Sid Nagy 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Lioncourt Posted March 24 Author Share Posted March 24 I'm curious if others have noticed prices bouncing back up, and if so, where. Kama City is my home, and prices have definitely rebounded here. In fact, some people might say prices here are close to peak again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 6 minutes ago, Diablo Lioncourt said: I'm curious if others have noticed prices bouncing back up, and if so, where. Kama City is my home, and prices have definitely rebounded here. In fact, some people might say prices here are close to peak again. But are those higher prices SELLING? Anyone can ask any price. I have seen 512s for over 100K. Just like in the corporeal world asking price only counts when a parcel or house sells for that price :D. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Lioncourt Posted March 25 Author Share Posted March 25 3 hours ago, Chic Aeon said: But are those higher prices SELLING? Anyone can ask any price. I have seen 512s for over 100K. Just like in the corporeal world asking price only counts when a parcel or house sells for that price :D. Aren't you adorable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 6 minutes ago, Diablo Lioncourt said: Aren't you adorable! She's smart, too! I thought her point was great! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Lioncourt Posted March 25 Author Share Posted March 25 (edited) 4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said: She's smart, too! I thought her point was great! The point is valid. It's also not something a landflipper needs to have explained to them, any more than she'd need to have the basics of blogging explained to her by everyone who happens to be the opposite sex, have preconceived views of bloggers, etc. I look at what people are asking with a grain of salt. As does everyone else who has to at least cover tier with what they earn... Multiple parcels priced so high no one was expected to buy - but people might rent- have recently sold. Edited March 25 by Diablo Lioncourt 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 13 hours ago, Diablo Lioncourt said: Kama City is my home, and prices have definitely rebounded here. I can confirm the Kama City phenomenon, at least in the far northwest corner. There were several quite pricey parcels here (well, it's double-prim) that sold, leaving just one still available in this region (Broadwater). Because the sales had (apparently) different prior owners and sold to (apparently) different buyers over the course of a few weeks, I'd guess they went at asking price or near it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 10 hours ago, Diablo Lioncourt said: The point is valid. It's also not something a landflipper needs to have explained to them, any more than she'd need to have the basics of blogging explained to her by everyone who happens to be the opposite sex, have preconceived views of bloggers, etc. I look at what people are asking with a grain of salt. As does everyone else who has to at least cover tier with what they earn... Multiple parcels priced so high no one was expected to buy - but people might rent- have recently sold. You're smarter than the average Be..I mean Lion! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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