🔔 LindenLab 🔔 : The Strong Need For Differentiation Between Actual Residents Versus Bots, Scripted Agents And NPC's In Second Life

[Paul Hexem]

17 hours ago, Count Burks said:

if they do not even control the difference between an NPC and an actual user?

How do you suggest they do that?

[Hymn Celestia]

20 hours ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

People who are in SL don't focus on it like they used to.

Right off the bat, argument invalid.  Gross generalization. 

[Hymn Celestia]

7 hours ago, Nae Mayo said:

What user want: Real avatars to interact with. We do not want a sim filled with avatars that do not help in user experience.

says who?  Gross generalization.

[Count Burks]

2 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

How do you suggest they do that?

I have been thinking about this earlier today. A good start to filter between actual users and NPC's with a goal to increase user retention with new residents would be to add the following requirement to get your sim or location listed in the Second Life destination guide.

-. In order to get your parcel listed in the Second Life destination guide any Non Player Character you have in your region or parcel must be marked as scripted agent or NPC where appropriate.

This measure alone can help filter the search results for any Destination in world by excluding every single bot and NPC. This alone will cause new people who join the platform and wish to explore Second Life after they leave the "new user experience" location, to find actual people to interact with instead of landing at desolated locations populated by greeter bots and NPC's.

Also filter the listings of the destination guide based on actual visitors so the most active places show up first.

Good example, just visited and checked.

According to the Destination Guide one of the popular places shoved into my face is Dullahan Manor with and I will find 7 people there. I am supposed to find 7 actual people there.

I visit, I land in a mainland skybox on a parcel of 4096 meters. The building is there, where are the 7 people which are supposed to be there? Not a single person is there. Keep in mind I am in a skybox at 1700 meters height which is the entire experience being offered.

My experience gets better as I try to see who the actual avatars in the region are? Maybe the Destination Guide told me that there were 7 people not at the actual experience as advertised but that these 7 people are for the entire region. Could that be it?

In my search to track the 7 "people" I teleport to the ground on the mainland. The 7 people are supposed to be at this building which is a clothing store:

Entering the store I try to find the 7 people. Look I found them:

They are inside this box named Deviant Behavior.

 

What's in the box?

Edited November 1, 2023 by Count Burks

[Count Burks]

Well they are bots, NPC's models for the store.

You do not believe me? Here is your SLURL http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Imperial/159/91/52

This is the user experience Linden Lab provided me with using their Destination guide. I was supposed to find a location with 7 people, one of the more busy destinations.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Count Burks

[Paul Hexem]

7 minutes ago, Count Burks said:

I have been thinking about this earlier today. A good start to filter between actual users and NPC's with a goal to increase user retention with new residents would be to add the following requirement to get your sim or location listed in the Second Life destination guide.

You're still not answering the question of HOW.

How is Linden Lab supposed to filter between people and non-people? How do they detect who's following the rules? What's the method they should use? Captcha popups every 5 minutes?

Edited November 1, 2023 by Paul Hexem

[Hymn Celestia]

6 minutes ago, Count Burks said:

Also filter the listings of the destination guide based on actual visitors so the most active places show up first.

This is the kind of condition that invites "gaming the system," though. 

[Hymn Celestia]

6 minutes ago, Count Burks said:

This is the user experience Linden Lab provided me with using their Destination guide. I was supposed to find a location with 7 people, one of the more busy destinations.

It is possible -- it is not out of the realm of possibility -- that at different times of day this result changes considerably.   It is possible that your experience at one time on one day is not the only way this plays out. 

I do take your point; I think I arrive at it with a different set of expectations though.  If I go to Dullahan Manor it's not to see the dots; it's to see the Manor. I agree with you that it's possibly a dots game; I suppose I just fail to see the emergency of it. 

This isn't a thing that is going to make or break user retention, in my opinion. 

[Love Zhaoying]

14 minutes ago, Count Burks said:

I have been thinking about this earlier today. A good start to filter between actual users and NPC's with a goal to increase user retention with new residents would be to add the following requirement to get your sim or location listed in the Second Life destination guide.

-. In order to get your parcel listed in the Second Life destination guide any Non Player Character you have in your region or parcel must be marked as scripted agent or NPC where appropriate.

This measure alone can help filter the search results for any Destination in world by excluding every single bot and NPC. This alone will cause new people who join the platform and wish to explore Second Life after they leave the "new user experience" location, to find actual people to interact with instead of landing at desolated locations populated by greeter bots and NPC's.

Also filter the listings of the destination guide based on actual visitors so the most active places show up first.

Good example, just visited and checked.

According to the Destination Guide one of the popular places shoved into my face is Dullahan Manor with and I will find 7 people there. I am supposed to find 7 actual people there.

I visit, I land in a mainland skybox on a parcel of 4096 meters. The building is there, where are the 7 people which are supposed to be there? Not a single person is there. Keep in mind I am in a skybox at 1700 meters height which is the entire experience being offered.

My experience gets better as I try to see who the actual avatars in the region are? Maybe the Destination Guide told me that there were 7 people not at the actual experience as advertised but that these 7 people are for the entire region. Could that be it?

In my search to track the 7 "people" I teleport to the ground on the mainland. The 7 people are supposed to be at this building which is a clothing store:

Entering the store I try to find the 7 people. Look I found them:

They are inside this box named Deviant Behavior.

 

What's in the box?

Thank you!

[Extrude Ragu]

It would be interesting to see how many bots on the grid are correctly identifying themselves as Scripted Agents. Here's a quick script that checks for scripted agents in the region, and tells you how many there are and lists them off to you. Just put it in a prim and click it:-

 

default
{
    touch_start(integer total_number)
    {
        list agents_in_region = llGetAgentList(AGENT_LIST_REGION, []);
        integer i = 0;
        integer len = llGetListLength(agents_in_region);
        list scripted_agents = [];
        while (i < len) {
            key agent_in_region = llList2Key(agents_in_region, i);
            if (llGetAgentInfo(agent_in_region) & AGENT_AUTOMATED)
            {
                scripted_agents += agent_in_region;
            }
            ++i;
        }
        integer num_automated = llGetListLength(scripted_agents);
        string strOut = "Of " + (string)len + " agents in the region, The following " + (string)num_automated + " agents are automated:";
        i = 0;
        while (i < num_automated) {
            key scripted_agent = llList2Key(scripted_agents, i);
            strOut += "\n > secondlife:///app/agent/" + (string)scripted_agent + "/about";
            ++i;
        }
        llInstantMessage(llGetOwner(), strOut);
    }
}

 

[Fionalein]

14 minutes ago, Count Burks said:

L http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Imperial/159/91/52

I found a store experimenting with new ways to approach and interact with customers there - very interesting way to demo clothing...

Clearly what we don't need in SL - creative new ideas...

[Count Burks]

5 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

You're still not answering the question of HOW.

How is Linden Lab supposed to filter between people and non-people? How do they detect who's following the rules? What's the method they should use? Captcha popups every 5 minutes?

A good start would be to send automated e-mails to users who are parked at the same location for 24 hours in a row. Send e-mail to the avatar containing a message like: ......

Hello Second Life user, 

We noticed that your avatar Avatar Name has been idle in world for more than a period of 24 hours. At Linden Lab we want to keep Second Life a vibrant place for our users. Therefor if your avatar Avatar Name is being used for other purposes or activities than being an active Second Life resident we would like to ask you to register your avatar as an NPC Non Player Character at https://www........

If you are unsure what is defined as an NPC Non Player Character in the Second Life virtual world you can learn more here. https://www........

This alone will  cause a large majority of people who deploy NPC's in world to just register their NPC. Sure you will have people trying to circumvent or ignore the request or try to game the system but you can then focus on that particular group. Most people who have their NPC, greeter bot, roleplay bots, store models etc.... will just register them. Just through simple automation you can already achieve results.

 

 

[Sid Nagy]

Gaming the system is as old as the grid.
And there is no reason to believe that will end any time soon when LL would offer new rules and regulations about just standing around (whatever they might be, no idea personally).

Creative people will always create new possibilities to try to pull things in their direction.

[Hymn Celestia]

2 minutes ago, Count Burks said:

This alone will  cause a large majority of people who deploy NPC's in world to just register their NPC

This alone COULD POSSIBLY cause a large majority of people who deploy NPCs in world...

It is possible, not absolute.

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Count Burks said:

A good start would be to send automated e-mails to users who are parked at the same location for 24 hours in a row. Send e-mail to the avatar containing a message like: ......

Hello Second Life user, 

We noticed that your avatar Avatar Name has been idle in world for more than a period of 24 hours. At Linden Lab we want to keep Second Life a vibrant place for our users. Therefor if your avatar Avatar Name is being used for other purposes or activities than being an active Second Life resident we would like to ask you to register your avatar as an NPC Non Player Character at https://www........

If you are unsure what is defined as an NPC Non Player Character in the Second Life virtual world you can learn more here. https://www........

This alone will  cause a large majority of people who deploy NPC's in world to just register their NPC. Sure you will have people trying to circumvent or ignore the request or try to game the system but you can then focus on that particular group. Most people who have their NPC, greeter bot, roleplay bots, store models etc.... will just register them. Just through simple automation you can already achieve results.

So, assuming LL takes the time to build a system to actively monitor the location of every user on the grid (??!?!?!), why wouldn't the ones already breaking the rules simply ignore that email? They're already breaking the rules, after all. What's another warning to them?

[Count Burks]

2 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

I found a store experimenting with new ways to approach and interact with customers there - very interesting way to demo clothing...

Clearly what we don't need in SL - creative new ideas...

The point is not that this store cannot have their models or NPC's. Everybody can keep their models and NPC's.

If Bernie wants to get a sim and load 50 avatar NPC's on his sim for which he pays so he can turn these avatars into NPC mobs so he can shoot them with his friends that is fine. Bernie can do this, it is his land and he can have his NPC's. 

These 50 NPC's should not contribute to the logged in user numbers.

These 50 NPC's should be distinguished on the grid map and removed from the traffic results as they contribute nothing and are not logged in users.

They should be identified as NPC's. That is what this is about. It is clearly explained in the first post.

[Count Burks]

2 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

So, assuming LL takes the time to build a system to actively monitor the location of every user on the grid (??!?!?!), why wouldn't the ones already breaking the rules simply ignore that email? They're already breaking the rules, after all. What's another warning to them?

Linden Lab is doing just fine managing their policy of bots entering private regions when not allowed. Works like a charm so why would identification of NPC's not work? There is nothing negative about it. It could also be deployed in steps, not very strict at the beginning where you eliminate them from being calculated as parcel traffic but over the course of time the policy becomes stricter.

Linden Lab staff could also just tag avatars as NPC's if they receive an abuse report about them or a complaint. They find 10 avatars stuffed in a box they can tag them as NPC. No need to ban or warn or anything of the sort. Should a user feel this is incorrect they could always appeal.

[Extrude Ragu]

27 minutes ago, Count Burks said:

Well they are bots, NPC's models for the store.

You do not believe me? Here is your SLURL http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Imperial/159/91/52

This is the user experience Linden Lab provided me with using their Destination guide. I was supposed to find a location with 7 people, one of the more busy destinations.

Out of curiosity I visited this sim and used my script to check if they are correctly registered as scripted agents - They're not.

With that said, one of the bots did walk down the catwalk to me and started introducing me to the shop, so I suppose at least they're not just purely there to drive up traffic numbers

 

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Count Burks said:

Linden Lab is doing just fine managing their policy of bots entering private regions when not allowed. Works like a charm

That's not a solution, "just ban everyone obeying the rules". All that does is make people disable the flag on their bots, not enable it. The current Belliseria ban did that already. Enabling it in more places would make it worse.

That also doesn't help with venue owners operating bots in their own regions where they won't want to turn on the bot ban.

 

4 minutes ago, Count Burks said:

Linden Lab staff could also just tag avatars as NPC's if they receive an abuse report about them or a complaint. They find 10 avatars stuffed in a box they can tag them as NPC. No need to ban or warn or anything of the sort. Should a user feel this is incorrect they could always appeal.

Oh, if we're including ideas that'll never happen, LL staff could also give me a million dollars.

They're already supposed to act on reports of bots, and they don't. Hell, they don't act on most abuse reports, and you want to add more for them to (not) do?

[Love Zhaoying]

If we restrict Bots, only the strongest and smartest Bots will survive.

Eventually, those Bots that remain will be completely invincible.

I suppose this process is natural, and will be helped along greatly by the current trends in AI.

 

[Orwar]

   Honestly what's the point of even discussing how LL would go about discovering bots, when there's yet to be any real reason as to why they should? Might as well speculate about how LL would go about implementing a system to force people to register what hair colour their avatar has.   

[Extrude Ragu]

Just now, Orwar said:

real reason as to why they should?

Linden Lab largely depends on real users staying around on SecondLife and continually playing the game for revenue, as users who stick around invest themselves more and shop.

A large portion (but not all) users come to SecondLife seeking social experiences. Those users primarily use the destination guide, the world map and the mini map to find places with people to talk to.

If a user keeps going to places that the game tells them there are people to talk to, and then finding that there are not people to talk to - The user is exponentially more likely to give up on the game with each failed attempt to find people to socialize with. If this happens, this is the loss of a lifetime of revenue for Linden Lab - A disaster.

LL very much should care IMO.

[Silent Mistwalker]

30 minutes ago, Count Burks said:

A good start would be to send automated e-mails to users who are parked at the same location for 24 hours in a row. Send e-mail to the avatar containing a message like: ......

Hello Second Life user, 

We noticed that your avatar Avatar Name has been idle in world for more than a period of 24 hours. At Linden Lab we want to keep Second Life a vibrant place for our users. Therefor if your avatar Avatar Name is being used for other purposes or activities than being an active Second Life resident we would like to ask you to register your avatar as an NPC Non Player Character at https://www........

If you are unsure what is defined as an NPC Non Player Character in the Second Life virtual world you can learn more here. https://www........

This alone will  cause a large majority of people who deploy NPC's in world to just register their NPC. Sure you will have people trying to circumvent or ignore the request or try to game the system but you can then focus on that particular group. Most people who have their NPC, greeter bot, roleplay bots, store models etc.... will just register them. Just through simple automation you can already achieve results.

 

 

That would upset all the people who leave their regular account logged in at all times, even when they are sleeping. They aren't NPCs or bots, just regular resident accounts. People have been doing this for more than a decade. 

I don't think forcing people to log out when we literally had to fight for the "right" to not be logged out when AFK is going to be successful.

Imagine getting one of those emails daily simply because you prefer to remain logged in. 

I doubt LL would be interested in having to spend even more money just policing avatars for being logged in "too long".

Edited November 1, 2023 by Silent Mistwalker

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

13 minutes ago, Orwar said:

real reason as to why they should?

Linden Lab largely depends on real users staying around on SecondLife and continually playing the game for revenue, as users who stick around invest themselves more and shop.

Good point.

Bots aren't going to shop on the Marketplace.

Bots aren't going to buy or rent Land.

Bots aren't going to buy L$.

Here's a thought - Bot "hosting services" charge money.  Shouldn't Linden Lab? 

Who says Bots should be "free"?

[Paul Hexem]

13 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   Honestly what's the point of even discussing how LL would go about discovering bots, when there's yet to be any real reason as to why they should? Might as well speculate about how LL would go about implementing a system to force people to register what hair colour their avatar has.   

Being serious for a moment, it's not a bad thing to want to see the bot policy enforced. "Fake" accounts cluttering a place up to make it seem active is definitely a problem, I can concede that. The real issue is coming up with solutions for it this late in the game.

Short of a single closed source viewer and/or getting rid of free accounts, there's really not much that can be done, which is why threads like this turn so silly.