Should I put my real-life gender in my woman avatars' profiles?

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

19 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

I have assumed that if a male insisted on voice-verification (which of course can be faked), it suggested that he feared the idea of participating in sex with another man due to his culture/socialization/religion telling him that this is sinful or deviant. This always seemed strange (and irrational) to me 

Did you ever consider this is simply a matter sexual preference? If so, I'm curious to know why you didn't. It always makes me wonder why when I see someone trying to villainize anyone for this. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Ingrid Ingersoll

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

34 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

What would be the difference(s)?

Entitlement is assuming one has the right to stuff - attention, information, space (eg. man-spreading), food (as in cultures where the men are served first), preference for job placement, etc. Male entitlement assumes men are superior to women because those males have been taught this from childhood. They might not even realize that this mindset is denigrating to women, because they think women prefer a secondary, supportive position (such as Goreans who believe "real women" are naturally submissive). They may believe that women are naturally inclined to be caregivers, while men are not. They may believe many things subconsciously, without realizing that their beliefs are harmful to those who are not like them (eg. those are a different gender).

They might even think they're charming or that they put women on a pedestal. They might be someone who would hold a door open for a women or offer to carry her packages. It's just that they are so set in a gendered mindset that they don't understand when some of their behavior is actually limiting, paternalistic or self-entitled. An example is a man who tells a woman to smile, while he would never think to tell a man to do so.

You're brave, I assumed the question was rhetorical, trying to trap us in yet another irrelevant discussion and derail!

I find it hard to believe Luna does not know the difference.  But you never know.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

It always makes me wonder why when I see someone trying to villainize anyone for this. 

I think they villainize themselves if they are so untrusting that the require, nay, DEMAND voice-verification. 

It's like, um..I dunno, whackadoo territory.  It's one very tiny step from demanding RL nude pics.

 

[Persephone Emerald]

16 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think she has 3 outfits. 

Love, do you think she might be interested in playing dress-up make-over? I bet a bunch of the women on this forum would love to help her get more outfits. (I think we were taught to enjoy playing with Barbies, and maybe a few of us dressed up our little brothers, nephews or cousins too.)

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Does it really matter? From the last few posts from @BilliJo Aldrinit's apparent that she likes to humiliate people for her own entertainment. 

projecting are we?

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Persephone Emerald said:

Love, do you think she might be interested in playing dress-up make-over? I bet a bunch of the women on this forum would love to help her get more outfits. (I think we were taught to enjoy playing with Barbies, and maybe a few of us dressed up our little brothers, nephews or cousins too.)

Probably.

I was a bit too focused on getting her decked out in her first couple of outfits, then basically burned out.  The hard part will be deciding, "what do I (not the theoretical her/she) like?"

[BilliJo Aldrin]

58 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The only thing I see is that this discussion is over, and I need to get busy in SL.

have your male alt call me, we could go out on a date 😁

[Persephone Emerald]

27 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

...I have assumed that if a male insisted on voice-verification (which of course can be faked), it suggested that he feared the idea of participating in sex with another man due to his culture/socialization/religion telling him that this is sinful or deviant. This always seemed strange (and irrational) to me as what difference should it make if you are just SLexting. Weirdly, this reminds me of the scene in Home Alone where the mom is offering her wrist watch for plane tickets and the lady asks "Is that a real Rolex?" the mom replies "Do you think it is?"

8 minutes ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

Did you ever consider this is simply a matter sexual preference? If so, I'm curious to know why you didn't. It always makes me wonder why when I see someone trying to villainize anyone for this. 

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think they villainize themselves if they are so untrusting that the require, nay, DEMAND voice-verification. 

It's like, um..I dunno, whackadoo territory.  It's one very tiny step from demanding RL nude pics.

Here's the crucial point for me. I don't mind if someone asks me if I'm really female (or male if I'm in SL with my male alt). I will gladly tell them I'm actually female in RL. What I don't like is when they insist on proof, because they are not *entitled* to that. If they don't believe me, fine, that's their business, but I'm not obligated to soothe their male ego or fear of crossing swords with another guy. Asking me to voice verify also kind of assumes we're going to eventually end up roleplaying sex, which is a huge assumption that also implies a sense of male privilege. I am not in SL to please anyone but myself for the most part. If I were to get into roleplay or SL sex with someone else, then what each of us prefers or does not want would have to be discussed before hand. 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

so anyway Gopi, before this thread gets locked, if you are here in sl to be a woman, be a woman, no need to put you are a rl man in your profile. If a guy hits on you, tell him you are lez, he will assume you are a guy anyway and run 😂 

and remember, block and mute are your friends

Edited August 17, 2023 by BilliJo Aldrin
added a line

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

It's SL.  Anything is possible.

Then there's a chance? Lulz! Sorry, couldn't resist. 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Here's the crucial point for me. I don't mind if someone asks me if I'm really female (or male if I'm in SL with my male alt). I will gladly tell them I'm actually female in RL. What I don't like is when they insist on proof, because they are not *entitled* to that. If they don't believe me, fine, that's their business, but I'm not obligated to soothe their male ego or fear of crossing swords with another guy. Asking me to voice verify also kind of assumes we're going to eventually end up roleplaying sex, which is a huge assumption that also implies a sense of male privilege. I am not in SL to please anyone but myself for the most part. If I were to get into roleplay or SL sex with someone else, then what each of us prefers or does not want would have to be discussed before hand. 

What the entitled "guys" don't get is, we have no way to tell they aren't catfishing US.

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

21 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think they villainize themselves if they are so untrusting that the require, nay, DEMAND verification

 

I've never assumed that a gay man was misogynistic if he wasn't attracted to me sexually. Cause you know, that's absurd.

So when I hear accusations of homophobia in relation to sexual oreference, it seems just as absurd to me. 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

28 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think they villainize themselves if they are so untrusting that the require, nay, DEMAND verification

 

I've never assumed that a gay man was misogynistic if he wasn't attracted to me sexually. Cause you know, that's absurd.

So when I hear accusations of homophobia in relation to sexual oreference, it seems just as absurd to me. 

I don't disagree, but your response did not take my statement into consideration.

I'll restate it as: "Men who are entitled to 'demand' proof, are as good as villains. Even if they deserve to get 'sex only with a partner of their preferred sex', by 'demanding' proof instead of being polite about it - they are likely not deserving of sexual interaction. 'Demanding' and 'sex' do not mix."

[Luna Bliss]

22 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

The only thing I see is that this discussion is over, and I need to get busy in SL.

have your male alt call me, we could go out on a date 😁

He's awfully cute...are you sure you can deal with this?  

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

sexual oreference

Is this a new factor in the LGBTZUEJSH+/` setup?

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

Is this a new factor in the LGBTZUEJSH+/` setup?

More likely a misspelling, you wiseacre! 
* points at your letters and makes fun of them to see how you like it * 

Now I know you're no ally, thanks for showing us.

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Is this a new factor in the LGBTZUEJSH+/` setup?

What. 

[Luna Bliss]

41 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

What would be the difference(s)?

Entitlement is assuming one has the right to stuff - attention, information, space (eg. man-spreading), food (as in cultures where the men are served first), preference for job placement, etc. Male entitlement assumes men are superior to women because those males have been taught this from childhood. They might not even realize that this mindset is denigrating to women, because they think women prefer a secondary, supportive position (such as Goreans who believe "real women" are naturally submissive). They may believe that women are naturally inclined to be caregivers, while men are not. They may believe many things subconsciously, without realizing that their beliefs are harmful to those who are not like them (eg. those are a different gender).

They might even think they're charming or that they put women on a pedestal. They might be someone who would hold a door open for a women or offer to carry her packages. It's just that they are so set in a gendered mindset that they don't understand when some of their behavior is actually limiting, paternalistic or self-entitled. An example is a man who tells a woman to smile, while he would never think to tell a man to do so.

ahhh ok...so for you to evaluate this as denigration of women it needs to be done consciously, while for me even behaviors done subconsciously due to socialization can be classified as denigrating to females.

[Luna Bliss]

45 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

49 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

What would be the difference(s)?

Entitlement is assuming one has the right to stuff - attention, information, space (eg. man-spreading), food (as in cultures where the men are served first), preference for job placement, etc. Male entitlement assumes men are superior to women because those males have been taught this from childhood. They might not even realize that this mindset is denigrating to women, because they think women prefer a secondary, supportive position (such as Goreans who believe "real women" are naturally submissive). They may believe that women are naturally inclined to be caregivers, while men are not. They may believe many things subconsciously, without realizing that their beliefs are harmful to those who are not like them (eg. those are a different gender).

They might even think they're charming or that they put women on a pedestal. They might be someone who would hold a door open for a women or offer to carry her packages. It's just that they are so set in a gendered mindset that they don't understand when some of their behavior is actually limiting, paternalistic or self-entitled. An example is a man who tells a woman to smile, while he would never think to tell a man to do so.

Expand  

You're brave, I assumed the question was rhetorical, trying to trap us in yet another irrelevant discussion and derail!

I find it hard to believe Luna does not know the difference.  But you never know.

Intelligent people like to discuss things and learn. I'm sorry you don't like to participate.

[Luna Bliss]

Where is Katherine?  I have changed into my male avatar inworld and want to save this damsel in distress!!!!!!!!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

So much angst about this.

Second Life is called Second Life for a reason -- not "First Life But with Cartoons." The old slogan, and the one most of us remember and still see as central to the place, is "Your World, Your Imagination." Both of these things underline the degree to which your self-representation need not be, and should not be expected to be, the same as your RL identity. And we can add to that the fact that disclosure of RL details about someone else is literally against the ToS.

I think it's fine if you want to know RL details, including (dodgy) verification of their gender/biological sex, about someone you are getting involved with. Wanting something is a right. We can't, and shouldn't, police thoughts and desires.

But wanting to know someone's RL information is not the same as having the right to expect or demand it.

If you're entering into a romantic or sexual relationship with someone, and you are really hung up on their RL equipment, then, sure, go ahead and ask for some form of verification. BUT don't make assumptions about someone if they refuse to provide it, and DON'T villify them or insult them. They have their own reasons for not providing it, just as you may have your own reasons for wanting it. And those reasons are none of your business. Move on, and find someone who is willing to do that for you.

It's surely that simple? If one person in a potential relationship wants RL verification, and the other won't provide it, they are simply incompatible. So, find someone else who is.

I am sure that some who insist upon voice verification -- and interestingly, yes, I've literally never heard of a woman demanding this -- are doing so because they are deeply insecure about their own sexuality, or just outright homophobic. I'm equally sure that there are some who insist upon it who are not homophobic.

I'll use myself as an example, with an anecdote I've repeated here before.

My first SL boyfriend turned out to be a woman in RL. (He later transitioned in RL into a trans man, but that's not immediately relevant.)

Had I known that this SL man was (and identified as) a woman in RL, I would, frankly, not have been interested in a romantic or sexual relationship. That's not because I am homophobic: I just am not wired to find the idea of having sex with a woman appealing. (And let's admit it, sex in SL is very much about "the idea" of it.)

But when he "came out" to me as a RL woman after our relationship had ended, I was very surprised, but not horrified, mortified, or offended. Our SL relationship had been, for all intents, a completely heterosexual one, sexually and in every other way. His RL genitalia had zero impact on how we interacted. I found our relationship, including the sex, satisfying and engaging at the time, believing he was a man; how silly would it be to decide in hindsight that it hadn't been?

Had I been looking to extend the relationship into RL, I wouldn't have "demanded" verification, but I likely would have ended it when I found out about his then gender and sexual identity. But that's just because of my personal sexual and romantic orientation, not because I hate lesbians. (We're still, I might note, very good friends.)

I think we need to stop reducing this to black and white or either/or equations. Sexuality and identity are complicated. So are our self-representations in SL, and there is a huge diversity of both. Accept that diversity!

And if someone's approach to RL and SL identity is incompatible with your own, move on. There's no need to judge them for it: accept their choices, just as you likely expect others to respect your own.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

including (dodgy) verification of their gender/biological sex

"PLS TO PROVIDE DNA SAMPLE IN CONTAINER PROVIDED. NAO."

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And if someone's approach to RL and SL identity is incompatible with your own, move on. There's no need to judge them for it: accept their choices, just as you likely expect others to respect your own.

I agree with most of what you wrote, with the exception of the word "choices".

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And if someone's approach to RL and SL identity is incompatible with your own, move on. There's no need to judge them for it: accept their choices, just as you likely expect others to respect your own.

Exactly. And don't jump to conclusions like homophobia, or any conclusions really. Because we all our are entitled to our own sexual preferences, LGTBQ or not as human beings. 

Unless they're being outright homophobic. In which case, have at it. 

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

Unless they're being outright homophobic. In which case, have at it. 

Kind of hard to define. But thanks!