Pay and then pay again?

[Janet Voxel]

Why would you be paying rent to someone when you own a parcel?

[Rolig Loon]

9 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

Why would you be paying rent to someone when you own a parcel?

Because that's the way it works on a private estate.  It's like buying a parcel on the Mainland and making a tier payment each month. On a private estate, the land is all actually owned by the estate owner. You may buy a parcel -- on my own estate, I simply transfer ownership for L$0 so the person can set all the parcel perms -- but you still have to pay a monthly fee that is your share of the landlord's own payment to LL.  The landlord can always reclaim the land if you don't pay the rent or if you violate the local covenant because, after all, it's really his/hers.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

Because that's the way it works on a private estate.  It's like buying a parcel on the Mainland and making a tier payment each month. On a private estate, the land is all actually owned by the estate owner. You may buy a parcel -- on my own estate, I simply transfer ownership for L$0 so the person can set all the parcel perms -- but you still have to pay a monthly fee that is your share of the landlord's own payment to LL.  The landlord can always reclaim the land if you don't pay the rent or if you violate the local covenant because, after all, it's really his/hers.

Ok, I'll confess I'm confused by all this. (I am as dumb as I look!)

When I've rented land from a private estate, it has just been a straight-up payment in L$s. I've never also had to donate tier for it.

And if you did donate tier for it, that would go the estate owner, who is presumably applying it to the land you're renting -- so there'd be no need to also pay tier (if that's the right term) to LL for it. If you did, LL is either getting twice as much tier as they should for the land -- or the landlord is using your tier donation to them for something else.

I also don't quite get your arrangement. Is your renter paying you L$s as well as donating tier? Or just the L$s?

I really don't understand how estates work, I guess -- the land is ultimately yours, of course, because you're paying LL for it. In what sense can you "sell" it to someone else? Why is that necessary to give them parcel perms?

[Polenth Yue]

15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I really don't understand how estates work, I guess -- the land is ultimately yours, of course, because you're paying LL for it. In what sense can you "sell" it to someone else? Why is that necessary to give them parcel perms?

The mainland is an estate run by the Lindens. People buy parcels and then pay tier if needed. The Linden Homes area is an estate run by the Lindens. People are assigned house parcels and then pay tier if needed. In both cases, land ownership of the parcel changes to the person who buys the land or is assigned the house. But the Lindens are the estate owners, so they can kick people out if they want and take the land back. Tier is the system used by the Lindens, and only the Lindens, to collect rent. If you've got that, you're most of the way there.

Private estates run in the same basic way, expect that the person running it is a resident. They can sell land and they can take it back, just as you might see on the mainland. The difference is they're not Lindens, so they can't collect rent with the tier system. They'd need to use rent boxes or something like that. Other than that, it works in a very similar way.

As for why you'd want to be the parcel owner, it means you can do a lot of stuff without needing a land group or estate rights. The only limits are the rules of the estate and any estate-wide settings that restrict things.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

The mainland is an estate run by the Lindens. People buy parcels and then pay tier if needed. The Linden Homes area is an estate run by the Lindens. People are assigned house parcels and then pay tier if needed. In both cases, land ownership of the parcel changes to the person who buys the land or is assigned the house. But the Lindens are the estate owners, so they can kick people out if they want and take the land back. Tier is the system used by the Lindens, and only the Lindens, to collect rent. If you've got that, you're most of the way there.

Private estates run in the same basic way, expect that the person running it is a resident. They can sell land and they can take it back, just as you might see on the mainland. The difference is they're not Lindens, so they can't collect rent with the tier system. They'd need to use rent boxes or something like that. Other than that, it works in a very similar way.

As for why you'd want to be the parcel owner, it means you can do a lot of stuff without needing a land group or estate rights. The only limits are the rules of the estate and any estate-wide settings that restrict things.

Right! Thanks! Most of this makes sense, and accords with my own understanding of stuff. I hadn't realized you could "buy" a parcel from a private estate however -- I had assumed one just rented (with the corollary that, as you say, one needs to belong to the land group). That''s interesting!

You can of course "donate" tier to a group to cover group-owned land, but it doesn't sound as though that's the case with the OP. From that, and what you've said, it doesn't seem as though she really can be "double paying" tier for the land. Her math must be off somehow?

[Alwin Alcott]

5 hours ago, Cate Foulsbane said:

Uh....I don't know how to answer that question. My current cost includes land I have dumped or sold and will remain that way til next month. I am currently in change mode which is why I looked at my tier level in the first place...praying I can see it go down, downer, downest.

 

to show us better, make a pic from your owned land, and your tier level please, blurr the locations if it shows, and i'm pretty sure we'll be able to help you.
Don't forget to look at your group land.. you might have donated landtier to some.

( just a wild guess... if you donated tier to your landlord, and he uses it for rentals at mainland, you indeed will be billed if you also have mainland yourself ..)
 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Alwin Alcott

[Polenth Yue]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Right! Thanks! Most of this makes sense, and accords with my own understanding of stuff. I hadn't realized you could "buy" a parcel from a private estate however -- I had assumed one just rented (with the corollary that, as you say, one needs to belong to the land group). That''s interesting!

You can of course "donate" tier to a group to cover group-owned land, but it doesn't sound as though that's the case with the OP. From that, and what you've said, it doesn't seem as though she really can be "double paying" tier for the land. Her math must be off somehow?

You can donate tier for mainland, but not private estate land. A group could certainly own some land on a private estate, but they'd pay rent via a box or similar, just like an individual. Simply pretend that tier doesn't exist for private estates. Other residents can't take money through tier, so you can ignore it completely.

The original poster was clear that the private land was listed as having no billable size (on "My Mainland"). A billable size of zero means the Lindens aren't charging for it. In other words, it's being correctly viewed by the system as being on a private estate and all is well. The confusion must come from elsewhere. A possible guess is deducting the included tier when adding up the total billable area. The land covered by the included tier (be it a Linden Home or mainland) should be included to get the correct total. It's only when it comes to charging (the "Land Use Fees" page) that it separates out which bit doesn't require a tier payment.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

You can donate tier for mainland, but not private estate land.

Something else I didn't know! Thank you!

When I bought my first bit of Mainland I drove myself to multiple headaches checking and double-checking the rules for that -- which, really, are not terribly complicated once you get your head around them. Life was, however, certainly seemed much easier when I was just paying a rental box.

[Love Zhaoying]

Learning a lot from this thread!

[Alwin Alcott]

28 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

You can donate tier for mainland, but not private estate land. A group could certainly own some land on a private estate

Not to start a word game, but you can ónly donate tier to a group, not to land. ( as  it is confusing for many, it's needed to keep it how it really is, not to misunderstand)
A group can be the owner on a private estate, but the donated tier will not be used by the system. Thats reserved for mainland only.
I seriously doubt a bug in that is whats happening here, in all my years i never seen it in real, or on the forums, it always was a donation mistake.

[Rowan Amore]

5 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

but you can ónly donate tier to a group, not to land.

I think this is what people misunderstand.  Tier is land ownership bracket as.the definition of tier is Levels.  Nothing to do with money.  Each bracket (tier) does cost a certain amount and only applies to mainland.  Nothing about Private Estates involves tier at all.

If you are not the Private Estate owner, any land you rent their isn't actually purchased even though the mechanics of the transaction look  the same.  Click land, purchase, etc...you're in effect, signing a rental agreement.  You obviously can't donate something you don't actually own AND again, tier doesn't apply at all.to private estates.

[Love Zhaoying]

52 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Nothing about Private Estates involves tier at all.

That was my understanding too.

But the whole idea - in this thread - that you can "actually buy" portions of a Private Region from someone else, is very, very confusing. It raises questions like, "then who pays recurring fees to LL for the Private Region", etc.

[benchthis]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

If you are not the Private Estate owner, any land you rent their isn't actually purchased even though the mechanics of the transaction look  the same.  Click land, purchase, etc...you're in effect, signing a rental agreement. 

I'm not great with all the land configurations, but this hits home. Few weeks ago I was exploring rentals via the search button, I teleported the place the land was for sell for cheap and there was a sign or popup to pay at the rental office after land was purchased. Was very confusing. The purchase price on the land was way too good to be true. I don't know what the rental price was the rental office was not exactly easy to find. If things are too good to be true, there is usually a catch. 

[Rolig Loon]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

But the whole idea - in this thread - that you can "actually buy" portions of a Private Region from someone else, is very, very confusing. It raises questions like, "then who pays recurring fees to LL for the Private Region", etc.

The only confusion is in the way people use the language.  Land can only have one owner. Even when land is deeded to a group, one person is ultimately responsible for paying LL the recurring fees for it.  In a private estate, one person owns the land.  Anyone else using the land is there with the owner's permission. Unless the owner is independently wealthy or just really friendly, those other people share the cost of paying LL by making recurring payments to the owner.  Call it rent, call it land fees, call it anything you like. Ultimately, all those "other people" are paying the estate owner to keep the estate running. 

As Rowan and others have pointed out, this is exactly the same as on the Mainland, where people on the land are paying the land owner -- Linden Lab -- to keep the estate running.   In both cases, we maintain the fiction that people who occupy the land "own" it, but they really only have a limited license to use it.  It's only confusing because in many cases the people who use the land also pay an up front fee to buy that license, thinking that they are buying the land itself.

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Call it rent

Ok, so my first answer in this thread was essentially correct. Yay me!

 

17 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If you are living on someone else's private region, it's not really "tier", it's more like you are paying "rent". "Tier" only applies when you "own" a mainland parcel or a Linden Premium home.

Adding:

13 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

As Rowan and others have pointed out, this is exactly the same as on the Mainland, where people on the land are paying the land owner -- Linden Lab -- to keep the estate running. 

I like this comparison.  The difference of course, is that mainland Tier (1024 for premium, or however much you own) applies to Mainland "parcel owners" and NOT someone who "buys" a "parcel" from a Private Region owner.  Agree?

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

14 hours ago, Cate Foulsbane said:

I pay my landlord monthly tier for my B parcel.

No you don't. Tier is ONLY collected by LL. You pay rent to your landlord, not tier. S/he may call it tier, but it's rent.

[Love Zhaoying]

How to put this: If you are paying Rent to anyone (besides to LL), and not taking advantage of other Premium benefits, you may as well not be Premium.

[Rolig Loon]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

The difference of course, is that mainland Tier (1024 for premium, or however much you own) applies to Mainland "parcel owners" and NOT someone who "buys" a "parcel" from a Private Region owner.  Agree?

"Tier" is not L$.  It is not a payment. Tier is a fee payment schedule, very much like a tax bracket. It tells you what your recurring fees will be if you occupy a certain number of sq m of land.  Linden Lab uses that schedule to tell people what to expect their land on the Mainland to cost each month.  On private estates, we have no uniform "tier" schedule of brackets.  The estate owner may set up one herself if she wishes, but most don't.  On my estate, I simply charge on a sliding scale, for example:  X L$ per month for every sq m of land. Estate owners don't use Linden Lab's Mainland concept of Tier because it was not designed to apply there.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Rolig Loon
Cleaner wording

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

14 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

The difference of course, is that mainland Tier (1024 for premium, or however much you own) applies to Mainland "parcel owners" and NOT someone who "buys" a "parcel" from a Private Region owner.  Agree?

"Tier" is not L$.  It is not a payment. Tier is a fee payment schedule, very much like a tax bracket. It tells you what your recurring fees will be if you occupy a certain number of sq m of land.  Linden Lab uses that schedule to tell people what to expect their land on the Mainland to cost each month.  On private estates, we have no uniform "tier" schedule of brackets.  The estate owner may set up one herself if she wishes, but most don't.  On my estate, I simply charge on a sliding scale, for example:  X L$ per month for every sq m of land. Estate owners don't use Linden Lab's Mainland concept of Tier because it was not designed to apply there.

Understood. I think we were just using different words.  I was also trying to use the distinction between the "allowed maximum amount of land before additional payments are required", and the "payment itself".  

Premium now get "up to 1024sqm" mainland without additional payment required. (Counting any land with a Linden Home.)

Premium Plus now get "up to 2048sqm" mainland without additional payment required. (Counting any land with a Linden Home.)

If someone is paying for "Premium" to get "up to 1024 sqm" in what is colloquially referred to as "Tier" (the 1024 Tier), then that can only be used for Mainland.

etc.

 But yeah, I get it - the OP's statement that they are "paying tier" - is not a right usage of "tier".

 

[Alwin Alcott]

32 minutes ago, benchthis said:

I'm not great with all the land configurations, but this hits home. Few weeks ago I was exploring rentals via the search button, I teleported the place the land was for sell for cheap and there was a sign or popup to pay at the rental office after land was purchased. Was very confusing. The purchase price on the land was way too good to be true. I don't know what the rental price was the rental office was not exactly easy to find. If things are too good to be true, there is usually a catch. 

this is a normal practice for estates. The price isn't to good to be true, it's often the first days/week of rental price.
You got even a pop up how you had to handle you say. Whats there to be suspicious about?
There is no catch, you just didn't read.


You dó purchase as if it's mainland, but the Estate isn't LL but a resident, who can reclaim of kick you out at any time. 

[benchthis]

3 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

this is a normal practice for estates. The price isn't to good to be true, it's often the first days/week of rental price.
You got even a pop up how you had to handle you say. Whats there to be suspicious about?
There is no catch, you just didn't read.


You dó purchase as if it's mainland, but the Estate isn't LL but a resident, who can reclaim of kick you out at any time. 

just saying when the ad says something like 15-100L per week for a huge piece of land and then get there and says something totally different. I understand how it works now and I avoid it. 

[Alwin Alcott]

3 minutes ago, benchthis said:

and I avoid it. 

because you don't get it.
There is nothing wrong with that system.
It will always tell the price to buy the land(rights) for a lower amount ánd the rentalprice afterwards. 
This is why you always need to read before you agree to something.
You make it sound like they scam you, but thats not true. You were blinded by the cheap upfront cost.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Alwin Alcott

[Rowan Amore]

13 minutes ago, benchthis said:

just saying when the ad says something like 15-100L per week for a huge piece of land and then get there and says something totally different. I understand how it works now and I avoid it. 

There is usually a sign, at least from companies I've rented from, that states something like...Purchase land for a specific amount.  This can be from 0L to usually the weekly rate for the parcel.  The large land company I used to rent from would then immediately send an agent to the parcel who would show me where the rental payment box was.   They'd also send a group invite.   Rentals on mainland work slightly different.  

[benchthis]

9 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

because you don't get it.
There is nothing wrong with that system.
It will always tell the price to buy the land(rights) for a lower amount ánd the rentalprice afterwards. 
This is why you always need to read before you agree to something.
You make it sound like they scam you, but thats not true. You were blinded by the cheap upfront cost.

agree totally, its like starting second life for the first time. been through it over and over and yet it's still confusing, less confusing now. learning how the land machine/s work is worse than learning accounting only using books. 

[Flower Caerndow]

Perhaps the confusion is not about whether someone is using the word rent or tier, but about the fact that LL charges for tier in increments, not for the exact amount owned.  

If you own 15,360 square meters you will pay tier to LL for 16384, whether you are using the extra 1024 or not.  The premium allotment of 1024 sq meters is in addition to the level of tier paid to LL.  Unless the extra 1024 was donated to a land group then it could not be used for rent in a private region.

And remember if you leave some of your land and the amount owned goes below 8192m then you need to manually adjust your tier level, it is not done automatically.  I got caught on that more than once until I figured it out.