New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[M Peccable]

2 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

it's not.

 

A user who rents a full sim/homestead from an estate company has Estate Manager rights, and can set nobots on/off regardless - on that sim they have EM rights on.

So are you saying that the estate company creates a NEW estate for each full-region renter? Because that is the only way what you are saying could be true.

Otherwise, the full-region renters would have estate rights over every other region in that estate.

[bunboxmomo]

4 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

it's not.

 

A user who rents a full sim/homestead from an estate company has Estate Manager rights, and can set nobots on/off regardless - on that sim they have EM rights on.

Then we need clarification on if this is a Region level function, or an Estate level function, but all the correspondance we've had from Linden Labs says it is an estate function, not region.

 

@Quartz Mole sorry to bother you, but can we have clarification on this bit in the thread to clear this up?

[belindacarson]

1 minute ago, M Peccable said:

So are you saying that the estate company creates a NEW estate for each full-region renter? Because that is the only way what you are saying could be true.

Otherwise, the full-region renters would have estate rights over every other region in that estate.

An estate owner, when granting EM rights to a renter, get a prompt saying "this region or all" (or something like it), so no, they don't.  The renter get EM rights only to the sim they rent.

[belindacarson]

3 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

Then we need clarification on if this is a Region level function, or an Estate level function, but all the correspondance we've had from Linden Labs says it is an estate function, not region.

 

@Quartz Mole sorry to bother you, but can we have clarification on this bit in the thread to clear this up?

It's been that way for years.  Try it yourself and see.

[bunboxmomo]

6 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

An estate owner, when granting EM rights to a renter, get a prompt saying "this region or all" (or something like it), so no, they don't.  The renter get EM rights only to the sim they rent.

That doesn't actually say anything about the deny_bots flag itself.

That's just the wording on how the manager role is presented.

If no region level flag exists, then it's a mute point on if they can apply it to anything or not and that is what needs to be clarified, hence why I've gone and pinged quartz so we can hopefully get that cleared up.

Also just to clarify, there are barons who give RO rights, not just EM rights to their renters. That is the specific thing we are talking about.
 

Quote

It's been that way for years.  Try it yourself and see.

I get what you're talking about, I'm saying thats just the name they give to "EMs" who sometimes are simply "RMs". That doesn't actually say anything about the flag itself.
hence why we're getting clarification.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I guess we need some clarification here, because I'm hearing different stories on whether an estate owner can pick and choose which regions this applies to.

It strikes me as bizarre that a really large land baron, with (for argument's sake) 100 or more regions has to choose just ONE option for all those, most of which will probably not be contiguous.

And yes, as to Ceka's point, it really does mean that much of the decision-making about this across the board is going to be in the hands of pretty darned small number of people. Democratic and empowering for most of us, it ain't.

I just got worked up because I thought for a minute there, that it was just for the big owners of more than one region and not owners of one region..  That lit a wick I tell ya.. hehehe

 

 

[bunboxmomo]

4 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I just got worked up because I thought for a minute there, that it was just for the big owners of more than one region and not owners of one region..  That lit a wick I tell ya.. hehehe

I think you would rightfully furious if that was the case, and I would be right there with you lmao, but not what I was talking about but I can understand how that may have came across that way if you're not familiar with this.

But yes, to clarify if it helps for where I think you misunderstood that, people who purchase a region from LL, are both RO and EO of their estate and its regions, even if that is a single region and have access to deny_bots.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[belindacarson]

5 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

That doesn't actually say anything about the deny_bots flag itself.

That's just the wording on how the manager role is presented.

If no region level flag exists, then it's a mute point on if they can apply it to anything or not and that is what needs to be clarified, hence why I've gone and pinged quartz so we can hopefully get that cleared up.

Also just to clarify, there are barons who give RO rights, not just EM rights to their renters. That is the specific thing we are talking about.
 

I get what you're talking about, I'm saying thats just the name they give to "EMs" who sometimes are simply "RMs". That doesn't actually say anything about the flag itself.
hence why we're getting clarification.

Actually you don't get what I'm talking about.  If you rent a full sim/homestead, you'd get Estate Manager access (some term that region owner) so you'd be able to set no bots on/off yourself, via the region control settings yourself - regardless of how the Estate Owner sets it you could even whitelist your own bots - for that sim only.

[bunboxmomo]

4 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

Actually you don't get what I'm talking about.  If you rent a full sim/homestead, you'd get Estate Manager access (some term that region owner) so you'd be able to set no bots on/off yourself, via the region control settings yourself - regardless of how the Estate Owner sets it you could even whitelist your own bots - for that sim only.

Beli, please listen.

There are barons, big ones at that, who also give RO.
I am speaking from personal experience.

As for the other thing you are talking about, yes I know logically it would stand to reason that would be the case, but as far as we are aware, there is no deny_bots flag that exists at an individual region level, so it cant be set if it doesn't exist, even if you could for other things that exist at both levels.

That's why we're asking quartz for clarfication.
If I'm wrong on this that's fantastic, I'd be glad to hear that, but communications implies it might be the case, so we're asking quartz.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Paul Hexem]

22 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And yes, as to Ceka's point, it really does mean that much of the decision-making about this across the board is going to be in the hands of pretty darned small number of people. Democratic and empowering for most of us, it ain't.

Which circles right back to my initial issue that I pointed out almost immediately- the people most affected by the setting will have no say or control over it; both for or against.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I just got worked up because I thought for a minute there, that it was just for the big owners of more than one region and not owners of one region..  That lit a wick I tell ya.. hehehe

 

 

No, if you have bought a single region from LL (not from a land baron), you'd still have both estate and region rights.

But in practice a HUGE number of private regions are in the hands of a relatively small number of land barons / estate owners, which would mean (if this is correct) they would have an enormously outsized influence on how many regions actually permit bots. So, yeah -- essentially the success or failure of this initiative is going to be in the hands of "the ultra rich."

Just like RL! 

Coffee's feeling that this is a good thing is premised on the assumption that most or all estate owners will ban bots. I don't have any reason to believe that that is likely to be the case.

[Paul Hexem]

5 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

Actually you don't get what I'm talking about.  If you rent a full sim/homestead, you'd get Estate Manager access (some term that region owner) so you'd be able to set no bots on/off yourself, via the region control settings yourself - regardless of how the Estate Owner sets it you could even whitelist your own bots - for that sim only.

No private land baron will give Estate Manager to regular renters. Estate Manager controls all the regions they own. I used to be an estate manager for Regent. I could go into any region they rented out, regardless of who was renting it, and change any settings I wanted.

Renters only get region level controls.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Paul Hexem

[Paul Hexem]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Coffee's feeling that this is a good thing is premised on the assumption that most or all estate owners will ban bots. I don't have any reason to believe that that is likely to be the case.

They'd run into the same problem I pointed out on Bellisseria. They'd wind up banning their own renter's alts/bots.

[bunboxmomo]

4 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

No private land baron will give Estate Manager to regular renters. Estate Manager controls all the regions they own. I used to be an estate manager for Regent. I could go into any region they rented out, regardless of who was renting it, and change any settings I wanted.

Renters only get region level controls.

She is actually right here, you can give Estate Manager rights to a user and have it be restricted to a single region.
But this is more a name of the role than anything else. Basically no such thing as a RM exists, only EM. EM can be per region, this is an aspect of it being poorly named.

Where the disageeement is happening is Beli is asuming that means that you can only apply deny_bots to regions you are an EM for, while I'm trying to say that asumes the existence of deny_bots as not just an Estate flag but *also* a region flag *that can also be toggled independently*

If the bot access flag worked the same way as the others, she'd logicially correct because loads of other functions work like this, but said functions also typically have mirrored region level functions, while the bot control does not hence the point of potential issue because this may also be reflected in the existence of a controllable flag, rather than an inherited flag from estate level.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[M Peccable]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Coffee's feeling that this is a good thing is premised on the assumption that most or all estate owners will ban bots. I don't have any reason to believe that that is likely to be the case.

I can say for sure most of the large sailing estates have banned bots.

[belindacarson]

3 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

Beli, please listen.

There are barons, big ones at that, who also give RO.
I am speaking from personal experience.

As for the other thing you are talking about, yes I know logically it would stand to reason that would be the case, but as far as we are aware, there is no deny_bots flag that exists at an individual region level, so it cant be set if it doesn't exist, even if you could for other things that exist at both levels.

That's why we're asking quartz for clarfication.

We don't need clarification.

 

I rent a homestead from an estate company, and I have EM rights on it.  The Estate Owner said they'd enabled nobots everywhere, but i chose to test it via the LL viewer, and i was able to turn it on/off on my HS, but not on any other.

 

This is how I, factually, know this.   I also saw you'd been posting incorrect information (including claiming to be able to scan for HUD attachments, which is simply not possible).  I chose to answer so that other users are getting correct information.

[Ceka Cianci]

6 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

I think you would rightfully furious if that was the case, and I would be right there with you lmao, but not what I was talking about but I can understand how that may have came across that way if you're not familiar with this.

But yes, to clarify if it helps for where I think you misunderstood that, people who purchase a region from LL, are both RO and EO of their estate and its regions, even if that is a single region and have access to deny_bots.

Ya, I understand that.. It's actually what I was meaning at the start.. I may have come off sounding like I was meaning just someone given control of a sim.. I'm just glad it went full circle and there was closure..

Because it was close to getting, Danny DeVeto needs a snicker up in here.. lol

Kidding, I don't get that bad.. hehehe

[bunboxmomo]

3 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

We don't need clarification.

 

I rent a homestead from an estate company, and I have EM rights on it.  The Estate Owner said they'd enabled nobots everywhere, but i chose to test it via the LL viewer, and i was able to turn it on/off on my HS, but not on any other.

 

This is how I, factually, know this.   I also saw you'd been posting incorrect information (including claiming to be able to scan for HUD attachments, which is simply not possible).  I chose to answer so that other users are getting correct information.

Yes, and I have rented and had region owner, which in the system is a permission level above EM, which gives access to covenant control, RAW control and what not.
Your experience is not universal beli. Not every baron does it the same way.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[belindacarson]

Just now, bunboxmomo said:

Yes, and I have rented and had region owner.
Your experience is not universal beli.

But you are still posting incorrect information, whereas I chose to post correct information.

 

That is what causes people to react.  The whole bot situation is giving some people (not me personally) issues, so by giving correct information, it helps to ease these concerns.

[bunboxmomo]

1 minute ago, belindacarson said:

But you are still posting incorrect information, whereas I chose to post correct information.

 

That is what causes people to react.  The whole bot situation is giving some people (not me personally) issues, so by giving correct information, it helps to ease these concerns.

For petes sake Beli, so why are you against us getting clarification from LL themselves, don't be so attached to "being right" and lets just ask so we can clear this up? Surely it's better rather than "no I'm right vs no I'm right!"

Ideally I hope you are right, I'll be happy if you are! So lets just get that clarified, as we've already pinged to ask and lets not get caught up in some unnessecary argument about this.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I do think we need a clarification from above on whether this can be applied on a region-by-region basis; we're spinning our wheels at the moment.

Not sure which Linden fronted this part of the equation, but I'm sure @Quartz Molecan find out for us. And of course earn our eternal gratitude  . . .

Edited April 6, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Paul Hexem]

6 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

She is actually right here, you can give Estate Manager rights to a user and have it be restricted to a single region.
But this is more a name of the role than anything else. Basically no such thing as a RM exists, only EM. EM can be per region, this is an aspect of it being poorly named.

Right. Linden Lab is and has been bad at naming things for years.

Whether or not it's an "Estate Manager" control or Estate Manager control, we'll probably need clarification as others are asking.

[bunboxmomo]

Either way I got to go to the store, hopefully we get a response.
Good luck Scylla

[Istelathis]

16 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

They'd run into the same problem I pointed out on Bellisseria. They'd wind up banning their own renter's alts/bots.

As far as I understand it, they can add exceptions though, so as to please whoever might be renting from them.  I'm not sure how many white listed bots are allowed in their list, or if even if you can just add a group to the white list.  I'm too lazy to be bothered to look up the information 😜

I think for Bellisseria it is just too much to keep up with, so currently, anyone who wants a registered scripted agent there is just SOL. Which just brings us back to the matter that more people will just run their bot in the parcel without registering it, and most people will be nonthewiser.  I don't know how many times I have just stayed AFK in my parcel for hours at a time, because  I get caught up in a video, go out to take a walk, go grocery shopping, whatever.  ARing is not likely to do any good for the thousands of other AFKers out there.  

Edited April 6, 2023 by Istelathis

[bunboxmomo]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I do think we need a clarification from above on whether this can be applied on a region-by-region basis; we're spinning our wheels at the moment.

Not sure which Linden fronted this part of the equation, but I'm sure @Quartz Molecan find out for us. And of course earn our eternal gratitude  . . .

We specifically need to know if the deny_bots flag can exist on a region independently of the setting on the estate as a whole. (Obviously though deny_bots on an estate, would apply to all regions.)
As in if an estate can *not* have deny_bots enabled, and a region *can* have it enabled at a backend level rather than just asuming it is, because unlike other things, we don't see this mirrored at a region setting and Estate setting like we usually do in the floater.

(Which I think is where Beli's position is coming from)

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo