New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

20 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

to examine if their feelings reflect reality and encourage them to challenge their own feelings where they don't.

we do?

Now, I would be remiss in not mentioning that very soon, a similar "deny_bots" action will require counseling of said bots, and the answerable question of "do bots have feelings", "are bots' feeling valid", and as Luna may (or may not) be asking - are "we" (Royal or otherwise) qualified to challenge whether the artificial feelings of an artificial intelligence based in any reality that we as fleshies may be scarcely equipped to judge? What then, Prometheus? (We are Victor Frankenstein in that allusion, for the literarily challenged.) Shall we find that deny_bots leads to a worse outcome?

[bunboxmomo]

10 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Now, I would be remiss in not mentioning that very soon, a similar "deny_bots" action will require counseling of said bots, and the answerable question of "do bots have feelings", "are bots' feeling valid", and as Luna may (or may not) be asking - are "we" (Royal or otherwise) qualified to challenge whether the artificial feelings of an artificial intelligence based in any reality that we as fleshies may be scarcely equipped to judge? What then, Prometheus? (We are Victor Frankenstein in that allusion, for the literarily challenged.) Shall we find that deny_bots leads to a worse outcome?

AI Counselling sounds like a new and exciting field! 🤑/s

(I do have some VRC projects I need to be developing and a paper I am supposed to be writing but this thread is becoming crack-c***ine for my ADHD, so I'm going to be a responsible adult and close this and catch up with you all later! Take care!)

Edited April 2, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, bunboxmomo said:

 

While that may not be a choice you feel you would wish to make for your own parcel, it may be a choice someone else might make. The point allowing residents to decide what choices they wish to make for themselves, rather than forcing an all or nothing as it currently is.

...

Residents should be free to decide for themselves how they wish their own data to be used, or not at all, rather than this dicated to them through lack of ability to effect a meaningful decision (Such as is currently the case in ML).

 

Yeah, right.

A huge amount of systemic change just so we have the option to opt into being spied on by 'code is law' scripter types.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

 

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

An avatar or bot simply needs presence on a region in order to get all the information it could ever want from that region and its occupants.

All occupants no matter how far on the region? No radar / llSensor() needed? I forget which LSL function may be used for this. You (and others) mentioned "any region access" gives bots visibility to your avatar (no matter how far), which surprised me.

I do still maintain that there are some mainland regions with no "easements" for "public roads" other other access. Because of this, I believe that such regions, if all of the parcels on the region "deny bots", would prevent bots scanning the avatars on that region.

Sorry for the early word salad, but it's hard to articulate, being somewhat inarticulate myself.

 

@Coffee Pancake, my question was serious. Is there an LSL function that gives the ability to see details like all avatars on a region (no matter how far) - and as you mention, from neighboring regions? Or, is this an exploit using API calls also used by the viewer, etc.?

[bunboxmomo]

16 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Yeah, right.

A huge amount of systemic change just so we have the option to opt into being spied on by 'code is law' scripter types.

 

Compared to right now where users have no control over what information is available to other users about them?

And comapred to right now where countless residents have no means to prevent bots from scrapeing data from regions like those in Mainland?

Whats your advice to them? That they pack up and buy premium and move to Belli? Or is it just a "Too bad"?

You know my point isn't about allowing bots more access, it's about giving residents control so that *more* residents can take control of their own data and about *extending* this to users who currently have no means to.

I mean with your point of concern, you could just as easily make an invisible parcel by default also restrict scripted access, and then have additional check under that that allows scripted agents the user can click.

I'd rather you don't creatively cherry pick quotes from my post to make it look like I said something else, and then paint me as someone arguing to allow bots access, just because you don't like the fact a choice might exist that you don't personally want on your own land out of every other context in that post about *taking away* access. Thanks.

Edited April 2, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[bunboxmomo]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

@Coffee Pancake, my question was serious. Is there an LSL function that gives the ability to see details like all avatars on a region (no matter how far) - and as you mention, from neighboring regions? Or, is this an exploit using API calls also used by the viewer, etc.?

There are functions that exist for this *in a region*.

You need to use scripted relays to pull information from *other* regions, or use bots running bot clients.
Alternatively, just open your viewer and set draw distance greater than a single region.

(It should be noted this information can also be scraped through llHTTPRequest as it currently stands if you are using a product by a creator who is collecting your information withoutr your knowledge, as llHTTPRequest headers contain data on your current region, your region position, your velocity and direction of movement and your oreintation.)

Edited April 2, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, bunboxmomo said:

There are functions that exist for this *in a region*.

Thanks, I'm a scripter but was only aware of llSensor / llSensorRepeat(), which I thought had distance limits. I guess there are "region details" functions that I never used yet, or I was wrong about sensor distance limits.

[bunboxmomo]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Thanks, I'm a scripter but was only aware of llSensor / llSensorRepeat(), which I thought had distance limits. I guess there are "region details" functions that I never used yet, or I was wrong about sensor distance limits.

llGetAgentList and then iterating down llGetObjectDetails, llGetAttachedList and various others would all be part of a pure LSL approach.

(See why I'm arguing I shouldn't be able to do this for invisible parcels if I'm not an EM? It's no different to the concerns people had about bots doing it, the difference is this doesn't need a bot so you wouldn't even be able to tell.)

Edited April 2, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Innula Zenovka]

12 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

@Coffee Pancake, my question was serious. Is there an LSL function that gives the ability to see details like all avatars on a region (no matter how far) - and as you mention, from neighboring regions? Or, is this an exploit using API calls also used by the viewer, etc.?

Certainly scripts can see everyone on the region -- use llGetAgentList([AGENT_LIST_REGION],[]) to pull the uuids of everyone on the region, and then feed those to llGetObjectDetails and similar functions.

I'm not sure about neighbouring regions, though.  llGetAgentList shouldn't be able to see people in child regions.  I've got an idea llSensorRepeat may be able to see them if they're in range, though llSensor can't, but I'm really not sure.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Innula Zenovka

[Coffee Pancake]

12 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

I'd rather you don't creatively cherry pick quotes from my post to make it look like I said something else, and then paint me as someone arguing to allow bots access. Thanks.

That's what you're arguing for.

Massive systemic changes to the core platform under the guise of "greater privacy" controls ... SO ... data miners can operate with impunity and all responsibility is out of their hands.

This entire problem exists because of a tiny minority. Region blocking of bots is a step in the right direction. It does not go nearly far enough.

No platform was ever improved because of bots.

Ban them all. Write code to detect bot like activity. Ban them too. Job done. Good day.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Coffee Pancake

[Ceka Cianci]

Out of reading the history of way back, nobody mentioned how they were gathering information to use, rather than who was abusing who and who was right and wrong..

Because that's still a hole that isn't plugged and a hole that you have to opt out of in the official viewer, rather than opt into. The viewer that just about every new user logs in with and runs around the grid with until they know better.

RZ is gone and those groups are scattered, but the hole is still there..

RZ used a system that would gather your user name, the viewer you were on and the IP address of anyone that rezzed the texture sitting on a prim using media on a prim..  Then stored that information into the database which was used in the network of all it's customers..

Now if any customers scanners across the grid, picked up the same information, but from a different users account with a different user name.. They connected the two accounts together and sent that information into the system.. Not only was it used for a network ban system, but also a network alt detector..

So customers using the system could tell who your alts were, if the users that were being scanned, were scanned while they had media on a prim enabled..

They also had a hud version that an account could wear and then roam the grid with.. All anyone had to do in the hud wearers range ,was rez the texture the hud wearer was wearing to be linked to the database.

Linking accounts together is linking RL personal information.. Sharing that RL information is finally what brought them down..

Edited April 2, 2023 by Ceka Cianci

[bunboxmomo]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

That's what you're arguing for.

Massive systemic changes to the core platform under the guise of "greater privacy" controls ... SO ... data miners can operate with impunity and all responsibility is out of their hands.

This entire problem exists because a tiny minority. Region blocking of bots is a step in the right direction. It does not go nearly far enough.

No platform was ever improved because of bots.

Ban them all. Write code to detect bot like activity. Ban them too. Job done. Good day.

Is that why you've been taking this stance? You're against any approach that would allow bots to continue to exist and give control to users because it would potentially get in the way of the goal you want being a total bot ban in public opinion?

I've been trying to get my head around why you seemed to be opposed to giving better user control, that suddenly makes sense why you have that position, I certainly don't agree with it though.

Is this just a principled matter of you hate bots then rather than this being anything about actual functionality and resident control over their own privacy?

Edited April 2, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, bunboxmomo said:

Is that why you've been taking this stance? You're against any approach that would allow bots to continue to exist and give control to users? I've been trying to get my head around why you seemed to be opposed to giving better user control, that suddenly makes sense why you have that position, I certainly don't agree with it though.

Is this just a principled matter of you hate bots then?

Why should bots be permitted to scrape user data AT ALL.

We don't need a dozen options (and massive platform change) to opt out of all the things that a bot might do, no one in their right mind would agree to any of it, so it's just dark patterns to enable data collection.

Just because you can do a thing, with a bot or a script, does not give you the right to do that thing.

[bunboxmomo]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Why should bots be permitted to scrape user data AT ALL.

We don't need a dozen options (and massive platform change) to opt out of all the things that a bot might do, no one in their right mind would agree to any of it, so it's just dark patterns to enable data collection.

Just because you can do a thing, with a bot or a script, does not give you the right to do that thing.

Yikes.

You know bots do a lot more than just "scrape user data" right?
This sounds like you just really hate those types of bots from a principled position and you're going on the warpath against scripted agents in general, even if that means to an end deprives residents of their own choices along the way, even ones about blocking bots on their land that without they literally can't anyway?

Also I'd remind you, you were literally just advocating *against* long term efforts to *remove* the ability of LSL to get data without adequate permissions.

Edited April 2, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Why should bots be permitted to scrape user data AT ALL.

We don't need a dozen options (and massive platform change) to opt out of all the things that a bot might do, no one in their right mind would agree to any of it, so it's just dark patterns to enable data collection.

Just because you can do a thing, with a bot or a script, does not give you the right to do that thing.

^^ Yes!!! Thank you!!!

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

Compared to right now where users have no control over what information is available to other users about them?

And comapred to right now where countless residents have no means to prevent bots from scrapeing data from regions like those in Mainland?

Whats your advice to them? That they pack up and buy premium and move to Belli? Or is it just a "Too bad"?

You know my point isn't about allowing bots more access, it's about giving residents control so that *more* residents can take control of their own data and about *extending* this to users who currently have no means to.

I mean with your point of concern, you could just as easily make an invisible parcel by default also restrict scripted access, and then have additional check under that that allows scripted agents the user can click.

I'd rather you don't creatively cherry pick quotes from my post to make it look like I said something else, and then paint me as someone arguing to allow bots access. Thanks.

None of the changes affect the scraping of data, but only the potential annoyance factor. Except for those who are a recluse and only ever stay on their own protected region, it is just a matter of time before one lands on a region for shopping, clubbing or other event before one runs into a bot looking to scrape any and all data. The scraping of data is not a biggie in itself imo, but the problem is the one's running the bots who make the decision whether to publish that data outside of SecondLife. Up to this point, the bot owner who triggered all this still seems to be looking for ways to legitimize being able to continue doing so, in spite of the pointing out of both the GDPR and California laws stating that even avatars that represent real people are under some protection.

The only thing we can hope for is that the Lab will take advantage of their discretionary powers as stated in the Wiki and enforce the Privacy rights of S/L residents:

Enforcement of Privacy Rights

This policy requires that third parties fully comply with applicable global privacy regulations. Linden Lab reserves the right to act where we see evidence of non-compliance with the Scripted Agent Policy or applicable privacy regulations. At our discretion, enforcement may include removing violating Scripted Agents and supporting scripts from Second Life, requesting explanations of Personal Data activities, requesting changes to how Automated Access mechanisms function, or suspending or terminating service.

Wiki Link

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

Yikes.

You know bots do a lot more than just "scrape data" right?
This sounds like you just really hate those types of bots from a principled position and you're going on the warpath against scripted agents in general, even if that means to an end deprives residents of their own choices along the way, even ones about blocking bots on their land?

Everything a bot does that is of any value is something that LL should be providing themselves.

We should not need a 3rd party to :

• Tell us where the party is.
• Inform us on trending fashion or bodies.
• Track parcels for sale.
• Find unoccupied Linden homes.
• Manage group memberships.
• Enforce security.
• AND SO ON

Bots and "well intentioned" scripters is no substitute for Linden platform investment.

[Love Zhaoying]

I would go so far as, disable all scanning / scraping functions, and only allow official LL Security Orbs.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[M Peccable]

21 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

No platform was ever improved because of bots.

Ban them all. Write code to detect bot like activity. Ban them too. Job done. Good day.

There are tens of thousands of Grid Survey users that would disagree with you.

That is just one of many examples.

In the past I have admired your posts as being from someone that knows SL and understands how things work, including the good things that comes from good bots. I am assuming the reason you can't see that now is that your vision has become blocked by either bots invading your private space or avatar info that was displayed on a web site that you didn't appreciate.

So let's throw the baby out with the bathwater and say you're right. Let's ban not only all bots, but anyone who teleports more than X times per hour. Let Coffee determine for us what X should be.

Edited April 2, 2023 by M Peccable

[bunboxmomo]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Everything a bot does that is of any value is something that LL should be providing themselves.

We should not need a 3rd party to :

• Tell us where the party is.
• Inform us on trending fashion or bodies.
• Track parcels for sale.
• Find unoccupied Linden homes.
• Manage group memberships.
• Enforce security.
• AND SO ON

Bots and "well intentioned" scripters is no substitute for Linden platform investment.

That goes entirely against Open Source as a concept that SL is built on.

This is fundamentally incompatible with the user-driven creation ecosystem SL is founded on.
The very platform itself would not exist if a hardline approach to locking any and all development to LL was what existed surrounding SL's development.

The very thing that has allowed SL to thrive as well as it has, for so many years where other platforms would have dried up. The lindens do fantastic work, but this has always been something we've built together, not just another social network run entirely by it's dev team.

Edited April 2, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Sid Nagy]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Everything a bot does that is of any value is something that LL should be providing themselves.

We should not need a 3rd party to :

• Tell us where the party is.
• Inform us on trending fashion or bodies.
• Track parcels for sale.
• Find unoccupied Linden homes.
• Manage group memberships.
• Enforce security.
• AND SO ON

Bots and "well intentioned" scripters is no substitute for Linden platform investment.

It is the Love Machine principle IMHO that keeps this work put in the "trustworthy" hands of bot specialists.
Same reason why the Lab open sourced the software back then.
Why pay for something that people are willing to do for free or peanuts for you?

Edited April 2, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, bunboxmomo said:

That goes entirely against Open Source as a concept that SL is built on.

This is fundamentally incompatible with the user-driven creation ecosystem SL is founded on.

Only the viewer is open source, the platform is not. SL is not, broadly speaking, open source.

Even the viewer is not developed in an open source way. If GPL code from a third party is to make it into the Linden viewer, it must be handed over under the terms of the contribution agreement.

https://github.com/secondlife/cla/blob/main/CLA.md

This is not incompatible with the user driven ecosystem, it's just incompatible with your vested interests.

[bunboxmomo]

3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Only the viewer is open source, the platform is not. SL is not, broadly speaking, open source.

Even the viewer is not developed in an open source way. If GPL code from a third party is to make it into the Linden viewer, it must be handed over under the terms of the contribution agreement.

https://github.com/secondlife/cla/blob/main/CLA.md

This is not incompatible with the user driven ecosystem, it's just incompatible with your vested interests.

Again with the "your vested interests".
I am not a bot developer, I do not operate a bot network. I am in favour of the deny_bots flag.

I get you feel frustrated because we disagree, but stop creating some imagined boogeyman persona and sticking it on my forehead so you can smugly smack it down.

Cut that out.

Edited April 2, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

It is the Love Machine principle IMHO that keeps this work put in the "trustworthy" hands of bot specialists.
Why pay for something that people are willing to do for free or peanuts?

That's fine as long as there are limits in place that prevent liberties being taken with S/L's main money makers which is regular residents without whom even the Land barons would be unlikely to keep investing in the platform.

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

There are tens of thousands of Grid Survey users that would disagree with you.

 

Which only exists because LL do not provide robust platform statistics.

Which they absolutely should.

The very existence of the Grid Survey makes it easier for LL to avoid publishing actual platform data they have. The end result is less transparency, less accuracy and less platform development.