New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[bunboxmomo]

6 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I don't know why I thought they were the same.. That would chap my hide if I owned a sim and they only gave this option to the top dogs.. Especially if it was something that was a concern of mine..

So basically it was only an update for the big time land owners.. Well aren't they special again.

Jeeezus.

 

It is very often, but not always the case, that the RO is also the EO.
This is not however set in stone and while it is not the experience of many people, it is the experience of some.

The reason for this common assumptions is historically there are many land barons who do not give RO, and people who bought land from LL directly, are both RO and EO.

Today however, it is a thing, especially with the size WRE is, but WRE is not the only provider who does this, and while it's historically been safe to asume Region and Estate can be equated as the same thing, its not really the case today, even if for many it is.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Ceka Cianci]

13 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

A private island (one region) is an estate also. So no problem there. As the estate grows and adds regions, as it stands now all those regions have to be denying bots or not. No mixture of the two, since it is an estate-level setting only.

 

Ok, but for one region owner with no other sims, they have this setting?

[bunboxmomo]

Just now, Ceka Cianci said:

Ok, but for one region owner with no other sims, they have this setting?

In that scenario, the RO would also be the EO, asuming they are not renting the region (with RO rights) from a region provider.

[M Peccable]

2 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Ok, but for one region owner with no other sims, they have this setting?

Yes, that is correct. I didn't know you could own a region (meaning you are paying tier for it directly to LL) without it also being part of your own estate, but if that's the case just create your estate when you purchase your region from LL.

Edited April 6, 2023 by M Peccable

[bunboxmomo]

2 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

Yes, that is correct. I didn't know you could own a region (meaning you are paying tier for it directly to LL) without it also being part of your own estate, but if that's the case just create your estate when your purchase your region from LL.

No, if purchasing it from LL it would always be part of your own estate.

There are region providers who give RO rights while retaining EO rights (and the region in an estate with it).

These estates can be tens to hundreds of regions large, and can be made up of all private islands, all owned by different people and diffierent communities. Some of which may want to enable deny_bots and are unable to do so, as this is an estate function and doing so would affect other ROs who may be using bots in their region.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[M Peccable]

Just now, bunboxmomo said:

No, in that scenario it would be part of your own estate.

There are region providers who give RO rights while retaining EO rights (and the region in an estate with it).

Oh in that case, of course. I was basing this discussion on private regions (sometimes called private islands) purchased directly from LL with tier paid directly to them. In that case, the owner has full estate rights, including deny_bot.

[bunboxmomo]

1 minute ago, M Peccable said:

Oh in that case, of course. I was basing this discussion on private regions (sometimes called private islands) purchased directly from LL with tier paid directly to them. In that case, the owner has full estate rights, including deny_bot.

I getcha, just explaining the edge case (well hardly an edge case given how large these providers are these days)

[Ceka Cianci]

8 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

In that scenario, the RO would also be the EO, asuming they are not renting the region (with RO rights) from a region provider.

Ok ya, I just mean someone that actually owns the full private region and deals direct with LL .. Anyone else I just consider as a renter..

So full region owners have it, full region renters don't and if they own more than one sim and use the option it will be turned on for all of them..

Now I don't feel so dumb.. I was getting a little dizzy there for a bit thinking  they were only taking care of some region owners.. hehehe

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by Ceka Cianci

[Scylla Rhiadra]

/me feels her head spinning

Ok, so . . . you rent (or "buy") a full region from a large land baron (who, as the actual ultimate owner, is the Estate Owner), and you become a Region Owner -- but not the Estate Owner.

But presumably the Estate Owner -- the land baron -- could set deny_bots at your request, on a region-by-region basis? It wouldn't apply to ALL of the regions owned by the land baron?

[bunboxmomo]

Just now, Ceka Cianci said:

Ok ya, I just mean someone that actually owns the full private region and deals direct with LL .. Anyone else I just consider as a renter..

So full region owners have renters don't and if they own more than one sim and use the option it will be turned on for all of them..

Now I don't feel so dumb.. I was getting a little dizzy there for a bit thinking  they were only taking care of some region owners.. hehehe

 

They would be renting yes, but they would also have RO rights.
The point is these can not be safely asumed as being the same thing, and there can be gaps in implementation if this assumption is made.

Logistically speaking they are arenter, but in terms of the actual permissions systems and user experience they have the same experience as an RO as someone who is a RO/EO.

[Coffee Pancake]

4 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Ok, but for one region owner with no other sims, they have this setting?

YES. If you buy a region from LL yourself, you have this option.

If you rent a region from another person or company, then the bot setting is in the hands of that person or company, and they can either allow or deny bots for all their land or not. Talk to your landlord, if enough renters ask for bots to be banned, they will likely flip the switch for everyone.

There is no option to change the option for one specific region as part of a larger estate. This is a good thing. Allowing per region settings would undermine the entire feature. A bot could land on one region and spy on a neighboring region that it's prohibited from entering.

Some pony is deliberately muddying the water.

[bunboxmomo]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But presumably the Estate Owner -- the land baron -- could set deny_bots at your request, on a region-by-region basis? It wouldn't apply to ALL of the regions owned by the land baron?

Unfortunately as an Estate level function, this does as it is currently implemented apply to ALL regions in an estate or NO regions in an estate.
Hence the gap in implementation.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, bunboxmomo said:

Unfortunately as an Estate level function, this does as it is currently implemented apply to ALL regions in an estate or NO regions in an estate.
Hence the gap in implementation.

Ok, that's . . . dumb.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Some pony is deliberately muddying the water.

I wouldn't drink that muddy water..

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Ok, that's . . . dumb.

Not really.

Regions on the same estate tend to share a border. If you allow bots on one region, then you are allowing bots on all the regions it touches regardless of that regions setting.

A bot doesn't need to be on a region to get region information or identify who is where.

[Rowan Amore]

23 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

Yep! Estate level function, not region.
So this only works for private islands that are part of their *own* estate as well.

Hence why this should *also* be a region level function too.

I think you're mistaken on this.  In the estate window it says Region/Estate.  As in Private Region OR Estate.  Private regions CAN be part of an Estate but being an Estate of one is still an estate.

From the knowledge base...

An estate can never have less than one region

[belindacarson]

2 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

Unfortunately as an Estate level function, this does as it is currently implemented apply to ALL regions in an estate or NO regions in an estate.
Hence the gap in implementation.

no, it doesn't.

 

an individual renting a full sim/homestead from a real estate company would have Estate Manager rights,m so could turn on/off deny bots regardless of what the estate owner did.

[bunboxmomo]

11 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Ok, that's . . . dumb.

I mean when we're talking the EO level function I think it's fine.
EOs should be able to quickly apply it to all of their regions, I don't see a problem there.

It's just without an additional RO level function, it leaves a sizeable amount of private island owners unable to do the same.

 

Quote

Not really.

Regions on the same estate tend to share a border. If you allow bots on one region, then you are allowing bots on all the regions it touches regardless of that regions setting.

A bot doesn't need to be on a region to get region information or identify who is where.

This is incorrect. An estate does not have to solely contain regions that share a border, and can contain (and does often time in the case of land barons, who a lot of people get their regions from), regions that are single private islands, or their own resident continents. These people should also be able to ban bots.

It's fairly safe to asume a RO who shares several connected sims that are within an estate of a land baron, would enable this option on all their linked regions, so your concern comes across a bit disingenious and stemming from your previously mentioned hatred of bots entirely, or a good faith but misinformed assumption about region ownership that I'm trying to clear up.

But coffee, this is a bit of an own goal on your part here, because *more* people would ban bots in this case, not less. So believe it or not, we're actually both aligned here, even if you may not be realising it.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

YES. If you buy a region from LL yourself, you have this option.

If you rent a region from another person or company, then the bot setting is in the hands of that person or company, and they can either allow or deny bots for all their land or not. Talk to your landlord, if enough renters ask for bots to be banned, they will likely flip the switch for everyone.

There is no option to change the option for one specific region as part of a larger estate. This is a good thing. Allowing per region settings would undermine the entire feature. A bot could land on one region and spy on a neighboring region that it's prohibited from entering.

Some pony is deliberately muddying the water.

Ya, I'm in Belliss myself so they are cut off here..

I was more just trying to get my sanity back, Because in my mind I was talking about actual owners and not renters.. It just kind of spun out on a twisty road back to the garage again kind of thing..

It's too early in the day for me to be spinning like that.. hehehehe

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I guess we need some clarification here, because I'm hearing different stories on whether an estate owner can pick and choose which regions this applies to.

It strikes me as bizarre that a really large land baron, with (for argument's sake) 100 or more regions has to choose just ONE option for all those, most of which will probably not be contiguous.

And yes, as to Ceka's point, it really does mean that much of the decision-making about this across the board is going to be in the hands of pretty darned small number of people. Democratic and empowering for most of us, it ain't.

[M Peccable]

4 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

It's just without an additional RO level function, it leaves a sizeable amount of private island owners unable to do the same.

This might be a point of confusion. Unless the "owner" is paying their tier directly LL, it might be less confusing to refer to the the other island owners as "private island renters".

[M Peccable]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I guess we need some clarification here, because I'm hearing different stories on whether an estate owner can pick and choose which regions this applies to.

They can't -- it is all regions or none. They could create a different estate and move some regions to the new estate, then set one with deny_bots enabled and the other not enabled, but that could be just too much work.

[bunboxmomo]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I guess we need some clarification here, because I'm hearing different stories on whether an estate owner can pick and choose which regions this applies to.

It strikes me as bizarre that a really large land baron, with (for argument's sake) 100 or more regions has to choose just ONE option for all those, most of which will probably not be contiguous.

And yes, as to Ceka's point, it really does mean that much of the decision-making about this across the board is going to be in the hands of pretty darned small number of people. Democratic and empowering for most of us, it ain't.

WRE is one of the largest providrers of land in SL. They allow people who *logistically* rent Full regions and homestead from them, to have Region owner *permissions* in the system. They keep all their regions in a single mega-estate, despite all these regions being rented (owned permission wise) by different people.

WRE is not the only baron does this and this is just an example.

I personally have rented (SL permission wise owned) regions that are private islands that I have complete control over (as far as RO rights go), but do not have EO access.

The lack of an Region function, means these kinds of sims, which make up ALOT of private islands (and even resident continents) in SL, are unable to apply bot restrictions even if they want to.

Coffee is just getting get upset because she thinks I'm trying to muddy the water to serve my evil bot agenda or something and she wants to see bots entirely removed from SL and for some reason thinks that land barons will just ban bots entirely if this function doesn't exist rather than just leave it and tell ROs to figure it out themselves.

Which means less regions would ban bots, not more, so it's a little frustrating trying to clear this up while that's all going on in the replies.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[belindacarson]

Just now, M Peccable said:

They can't -- it is all regions or none. They could create a different estate and move some regions to the new estate, then set one with deny_bots enabled and the other not enabled, but that could be just too much work.

it's not.

 

A user who rents a full sim/homestead from an estate company has Estate Manager rights, and can set nobots on/off regardless - on that sim they have EM rights on.

[belindacarson]

1 minute ago, bunboxmomo said:

WRE is one of the largest providrers of land in SL. They allow people who *logistically* rent Full regions and homestead from them, to have Region owner *permissions* in the system. They keep all their regions in a single mega-estate, despite all these regions being rented (owned permission wise) by different people.

WRE is not the only baron does this and this is just an example.

I personally have rented (SL permission wise owned) regions that are private islands that I have complete control over (as far as RO rights go), but do not have EO access.

Coffee is just getting get upset because she thinks I'm trying to muddy the water to serve my evil bot agenda or something.

You're not, you're just posting incorrect information.