Anti consumer practices from vendors

[EliseAnne85]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

Most businesses in SL are one person driven from design, texturing, boxing, writing the descriptions for the marketplace, fill the vendors, build or find and maintain a store, customer service, get into sale events, cater bloggers and and and what not

Plus, take all the pictures, do the animations and scripting.  It's far more work than it's worth most times.

Sculpties were easier.

Regarding copy/mod in this thread:  I don't see no mod being an anti consumer practice because first of all it does depend on the item.  There are reasons, real reasons others may not know about such as it won't work with another fabric it has to match MAP for MAP because it's a layered clothing item.  If one changes it at all period to different fabric, it's ruined and completely unusable because the parameters would be off as they could just plop a square fabric texture on there and break it if it's mod.  Plus there may be a bit that's alphaed out so no prim clash or breakage - change that to a diff texture or change the alpha mask if it's mod, and it will break and be ruined and unusable, and then they will think it's the creators fault.    

All furniture, jewelry, hair, plants plus much more needs to be mod but this is due to our differing avatar size more than anything.  Also, I don't see adding mod as making the product automatically "good" simply because it is mod also.

Edited January 14, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Henri Beauchamp]

20 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

NO REFUNDS - ALL SALES ARE FINAL

Things would be way simpler if SL was to offer a way for copy-ok no-tfr items you bought to be transferred back to their creator, with the insurance for the latter that no copy is left in your inventory...

In this case, I would personally, as a SL merchant, gladly offer full refund service for my products (which are all copy-ok, mod-ok and no-tfr).

Note that this would be a totally feasible (server-side) feature...

Edited January 14, 2023 by Henri Beauchamp

[Sid Nagy]

23 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Things would be way simpler if SL was to offer a way for copy-ok no-tfr items you bought to be transferred back to their creator, with the insurance for the latter that no copy is left in your inventory...

In this case, I would personally, as a SL merchant, gladly offer full refund service for my products (which are all copy-ok, mod-ok and no-tfr).

Note that this would be a totally feasible (server-side) feature...

Yeah right.
Buy a new outfit.
Go to the party to show off.
Next day: refund please.
Rinse and repeat next Saturday night.

Not saying that you would do this, but that would be the new scam act in SL.
Consumer robbery is as bad as merchant robbery.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[EliseAnne85]

33 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Things would be way simpler if SL was to offer a way for copy-ok no-tfr items you bought to be transferred back to their creator, with the insurance for the latter that no copy is left in your inventory...

In this case, I would personally, as a SL merchant, gladly offer full refund service for my products (which are all copy-ok, mod-ok and no-tfr).

Note that this would be a totally feasible (server-side) feature...

I think that would be gamed to death.   How much time does the buyer get to have the item before they can transfer for a refund?  

As far as NO REFUNDS, ALL SALES FINAL.  I've mostly seen NO REFUNDS, ALL SALES FINAL IF THERE IS A DEMO AVAILABLE.  

What Coffee is talking about is the demo for the fatpack doesn't explain what can be changed on the single item.  I have not bought those kinds of items.  Almost all the places I shop for humans, if it's a single item, the single item HUD demo is included so one can see what changes on the single item.  Also, for any newbies reading and trying demos, there might be two HUDS in the fatpack - one hud is for the fatpack item and one hud is for the single items.   Most times two huds are included in the demo.

Me just talking about mod stuff in a general way - I gave explanations above in my other post about *why* some items simply cannot be modified as they would be totally ruined and thus the creator will decide to make those copy only.  What creators also face, or I should speak for myself, is that I look through the eyes of a newbie.  Unfortunately, this approach of always looking through a newbies eyes can push some of the oldbies who would know what to do to fix a modify item if it broke aside.  We don't mean to push olbies aside but I approach everything I make with the eyes of a newbie or try my best to, anyways.  

Edited January 14, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Yeah right.
Buy a new outfit.
Go to the party to show off.
Next day: refund please.
Rinse and repeat next Saturday night.

Just like RL!

[Henri Beauchamp]

52 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Yeah right.
Buy a new outfit.
Go to the party to show off.
Next day: refund please.
Rinse and repeat next Saturday night.

Not saying that you would do this, but that would be the new scam act in SL.
Consumer robbery is as bad as merchant robbery.

They could do it once, but not twice with the same merchant (not with me, at least)...

You could also limit the refund period to 24 hours.

[EliseAnne85]

42 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Just like RL!

Is that why most retailors want to go online only?  The buyer has to pay to ship it back now if most retailors go online only and it's mostly not worth it.

If LL ever had a server side system to allow automatic returns, LL would most likely be making all the items as most creators would never go for that.  And, then when one tries to send the (more than likely) *used already* item back, LL could send out a message "that service is currently down, please try again in three days".  I'm joking, of course.  

[Sid Nagy]

28 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

They could do it once, but not twice with the same merchant (not with me, at least)...

You could also limit the refund period to 24 hours.

That long?
That is still until after the party.

How about 30 minutes?
That would save a lot of demo making and there would be an advantage for the merchant as well.
People could buy, test and if it doesn't fit return it with a refund with nobody harmed I suppose.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Dorientje Woller]

16 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

That long?
That is still until after the party.

How about 30 minutes?
That would save a lot of demo making and there would be an advantage for the merchant as well.
People could buy, test and if it doesn't fit return it with a refund with nobody harmed I suppose.

Why? If there is a demo available and the buyer forsake to demo it first, why should a creator be forced to go through the hassle of refunding him/her? General rule in SL is still "demo first, then buy if you like it". Creators who don't provide demo's should be avoided, plain and simple.

[EliseAnne85]

27 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Why? If there is a demo available and the buyer forsake to demo it first, why should a creator be forced to go through the hassle of refunding him/her? General rule in SL is still "demo first, then buy if you like it". Creators who don't provide demo's should be avoided, plain and simple.

I agree with you on this but what Coffee, the OP, is talking about are confusing demos.  For example, the HUD in the demo is only for the fatpack and one then would have to guess what modifies on the single colors if they buy a single item instead of the fatpack.  For instance, what changes on the single item doesn't make sense.  There are many sellers, however, who do include both a fatpack and a single hud in the demo, so there are often two huds in the demo.  If it only includes a fatpack hud but no single demo, one might want to avoid the confusing item altogether.  Or, if they like the item a lot, contact the seller and ask what parts can be changed on the single colors.  HUDS are difficult to make.  Some people are just learning.  OMG, I personally hating learning HUDS...this is another thing creators have to do along with the long list Sid and I explained in this thread - animations, scripting, photography, design, graphics programs, that to do list just to make one item goes on and on.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

They could do it once, but not twice with the same merchant (not with me, at least)...

You could also limit the refund period to 24 hours.

The box can't be "openable" with "copy" items or when you return it, you can keep a "copy".

So, you'd have to delete all copies..right?  Or cram everything back in the box if "no copy"?

It would be easier if LL had a function for the Merchant to "delete all buyer's copies" if the items were returned, but then the hierarchy of all the items would have to be tracked.

Unless we're overthinking it..

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Is that why most retailors want to go online only? 

No.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

15 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Creators who don't provide demo's should be avoided, plain and simple.

I break this rule constantly. Many furry, mermaid, and general fantasy BOM/applier mod kits don't have demos for varying reasons. And sometimes, things like hats, hair accessories, some jewelry. If a seller has a long history inside SL and the store is well-developed, I'll take a chance on the stuff, no problem. Some of my best items, skins, and outfits were the result of taking a chance on no demo. 

I wouldn't do this for every random creator, but some sellers - absolutely. And now I've got a list of places where I'll buy anything they put out, demo or not, no question.

On the HUD issue, that is annoying, though I haven't encountered it too many times. I think hair is the only thing where I've seen confusion on a somewhat regular basis - can I change styles if I only buy the smaller color pack, etc. etc. But as I typically buy things on heavy discount, I really can't complain much if I pay 50L for the ombre pack and can't flip my part around. No biggie.

[EliseAnne85]

23 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I break this rule constantly. Many furry, mermaid, and general fantasy BOM/applier mod kits don't have demos for varying reasons. And sometimes, things like hats, hair accessories, some jewelry. If a seller has a long history inside SL and the store is well-developed, I'll take a chance on the stuff, no problem. Some of my best items, skins, and outfits were the result of taking a chance on no demo. 

I wouldn't do this for every random creator, but some sellers - absolutely. And now I've got a list of places where I'll buy anything they put out, demo or not, no question.

On the HUD issue, that is annoying, though I haven't encountered it too many times. I think hair is the only thing where I've seen confusion on a somewhat regular basis - can I change styles if I only buy the smaller color pack, etc. etc. But as I typically buy things on heavy discount, I really can't complain much if I pay 50L for the ombre pack and can't flip my part around. No biggie.

I agree with you too on the non-human avi's.  I'm a Dinkie now at this time but I know humans are super picky.  Most could never handle the casualness nor understand the non-human lifestyle of shopping the way most of us who are mostly non-human do.  Mostly, non-humans characters or especially Dinkies shop with no demos and are okay with it as Dinkies are one-size-fits-all for clothes and shoes and that's it.  The rest I buy for my Dinkie is unrigged hair or jewelry but I can still try to fit the unrigged demo product to my Dinkie or make sure either by the ad or the demo itself there is an unrigged version in there. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Ayashe Ninetails]

3 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I agree with you too on the non-human avi's.  I'm a Dinkie now at this time but I know humans are super picky.  Most could never handle the casualness nor understand the non-human lifestyle of shopping the way most of us who are mostly non-human do.  Mostly, non-humans characters or especially Dinkies shop with no demos and are okay with it as we are one size fits all for clothes and shoes and that's it.  The rest I buy for my Dinkie is unrigged hair or jewelry but I can still try to fit the unrigged demo product to my Dinkie or make sure either by the ad or the demo itself there is an unrigged version in there. 

Oh, I buy for human avatars without demos, too. My favorite costume maker doesn't do demos - it'd take her a ridiculous amount of time, and most of the outfits come with bits and pieces that would require so much work to make in a demo version - particles, functional parts that animate, have flowing water, a boatload of attachments, sometimes skins and hair included. Etc. I took a chance once and the quality blew me away. Did it again. And again. And again. I wouldn't hesitate grabbing anything of hers.

But yes, that's definitely more common in the roleplay and furry realm. None of my furry skins had a demo, but the store looked adorable, so I bought them anyway. No regrets. I also run into it a lot when buying hair accessories for my frog (well, since she's got no hair, I buy her a lot of hats and headbands and things). Demos are pretty rare in that realm from what I've seen so far, but I've had absolutely no problems. Everything I've grabbed in different stores has been adorable and the quality has been stellar. Plus, they're usually mod, so I can fix any fitting issues that arise, since ya know, she's got a big ole head. 😄

[Sid Nagy]

1 hour ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Why? If there is a demo available and the buyer forsake to demo it first, why should a creator be forced to go through the hassle of refunding him/her? General rule in SL is still "demo first, then buy if you like it". Creators who don't provide demo's should be avoided, plain and simple.

If the refund system would be automated as a SL standard feature, for instance that when returned within 30 minutes after purchase no questions asked and you get your money back, merchants would not have to make demo's any longer. That would save a lot of extra work for them.

But as Love already pointed out, it would take more than a few lines of code to implement such a feature, so I don't see it happening any time soon.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[EliseAnne85]

3 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

If the refund system would be automated as a SL standard feature, for instance that when returned within 30 minutes after purchase no questions asked and you get your money back, merchants would not have to make demo's any longer. That would save a lot of extra work for them.

I don't understand how this would work unless all items were no mod other than they'd have to be resize only through a resizer script, no modify where one could change the name.  Some items one does need to change glow or turn on/off full bright for example, so all things in the modify area would have to be worked through a HUD via scripts.  Wouldn't that just add more scripts when scripts are not always needed?  Demos and huds are both more work to add to the list you and I were making.  

[Rowan Amore]

Some vendors do put 'HUD comes in fatpacks only'.  Or they used to do that.  They used to always have permissions listed as well.  Are they just getting lazy or is it a willful choice to be deceptive?  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

15 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Some vendors do put 'HUD comes in fatpacks only'.  Or they used to do that.  They used to always have permissions listed as well.  Are they just getting lazy or is it a willful choice to be deceptive?  

I just demo'ed an outfit that came with a HUD that very clearly separated the colour options you get as singles from those available only in the FP. Now, it's kind of annoying that there were something like three times as many colours in the FP . . . but at least it wasn't deceptive.

I don't really understand the point of NOT labeling and previewing properly. If you don't you get very annoyed customers who've only paid for a single, and are unlikely now to buy the FP because they're pissed off. Whereas if you preview properly, you'll get customers who decide to get the FP because they want something only available in it. So, last night, for instance, I bought a FP of a hair because the demo made it clear that a style I wanted was available only in the FP. I paid more, but I'm happy. If I'd bought a single and discovered that, contrary to my expectations, it wasn't there, I'd have been peeved.

Surely you want people to choose to buy the FP from the outset?

Edited January 14, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Sammy Huntsman]

One my biggest pet peeve, is when they say come get your free gift card here, but fail to put that you have to join the group or be a part of the group, to be a part of it. 

Gifts that cost money, and it seems like this is only at a few events. They will say it's a gift, but you are paying money to receive said gift. That isn't the definitiion of a gift. That is just a heavily discounted item. 

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

One my biggest pet peeve, is when they say come get your free gift card here, but fail to put that you have to join the group or be a part of the group, to be a part of it. 

..and some places say you have to wear the group tag to use credit / buy, etc.!

(Pretty sure I remember that.)

[Sammy Huntsman]

54 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

..and some places say you have to wear the group tag to use credit / buy, etc.!

(Pretty sure I remember that.)

Yeah some stores do that alright. I mean I usually don't buy from those stores. Or they will give you some exorbitant amount to pay, to earn a discount or credit. Like at like 10kL you can get a certain percentage discount or you gain credit. 

[PheebyKatz]

On 1/13/2023 at 5:07 PM, Rowan Amore said:

You don't buy it at all.  At least I don't.  I've also sent notes to.creators telling them why I didn't make.the purchase.  The not being able to change metals in a single purchase item means NO SALE to me.  

If you do it right, sometimes they even thank you for the feedback and make the changes that you suggest. A lot of vendors really don't even know what would please people, they're just winging it and seeing what works. Consumer mindset and vendor mindset are completely different (otherwise there would be a lot less to complain about in the first place), and figuring out how to make the customer happy usually comes down to getting customer feedback.

Of course, leaving feedback while upset and frustrated over the vendor's lack of skill in pleasing the customer can sometimes get the feedback rejected or ignored simply because nobody wants to validate someone talking about what a crap store they have, how much they suck as a vendor, etc. It's a vicious cycle, and the only way to change it for the better is to improve communication between the customer and the vendor.

Of course there will always be crappy or shady vendors, but they're a lot easier to tell from the honest and worthwhile ones if you can communicate with them before making a major purchase, or when dissatisfied with a listing to the point of not buying. If they respond well to polite feedback, they're probably a good vendor and worth giving a chance, at least.

They might even make the changes necessary to please customers who have higher standards, and thereby improve their business overall.

Edited January 15, 2023 by PheebyKatz

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, PheebyKatz said:

If you do it right, sometimes they even thank you for the feedback and make the changes that you suggest. A lot of vendors really don't even know what would please people, they're just winging it and seeing what works. Consumer mindset and vendor mindset are completely different (otherwise there would be a lot less to complain about in the first place), and figuring out how to make the customer happy usually comes down to getting customer feedback.

Of course, leaving feedback while upset and frustrated over the vendor's lack of skill in pleasing the customer can sometimes get the feedback rejected or ignored simply because nobody wants to validate someone talking about what a crap store they have, how much they suck as a vendor, etc. It's a vicious cycle, and the only way to change it for the better is to improve communication between the customer and the vendor.

Of course there will always be crappy or shady vendors, but they're a lot easier to tell from the honest and worthwhile ones if you can communicate with them before making a major purchase, or when dissatisfied with a listing to the point of not buying. If they respond well to polite feedback, they're probably a good vendor and worth giving a chance, at least.

They might even make the changes necessary to please customers who have higher standards, and thereby improve their business overall.

I'd have to say 99% of my interactions with merchants has been positive.  I've sent A LOT of feedback over the years.  In one recent case, the merchant who had previously NOT included metal changes in the HUD has now begun including it.  I'm kind of particular in that aspect so without it, I'm more inclined not to make the purchase.  They include it with single and fatpack purchase although I always get the fatpack from them now.  

Saying things tactfully and a little ass kissing goes a long way in getting what you want.  😁

[PheebyKatz]

32 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I'd have to say 99% of my interactions with merchants has been positive.  I've sent A LOT of feedback over the years.  In one recent case, the merchant who had previously NOT included metal changes in the HUD has now begun including it.  I'm kind of particular in that aspect so without it, I'm more inclined not to make the purchase.  They include it with single and fatpack purchase although I always get the fatpack from them now.  

Saying things tactfully and a little ass kissing goes a long way in getting what you want.  😁

Almost every merchant I've ever met or spoken to has almost cried for joy when I told them I actually liked something they made. I've had expensive items dumped on me as gifts just for telling someone I liked their stuff and wanted to buy more when I had the L$ to spare. I've dumped half of my own shop on people before just because they liked my stuff and it made me happy to hear someone say it that day.

There are greedy, money-grubbing scammers, and then there's the rest of the people who make things and sell them or otherwise share them, and in my experience, most merchants are just like me; introverted IRL, hard on themselves and their creative output, and blown away when someone actually likes their stuff despite how unworthy they consider it themselves. Trust me, the creator of an item probably sees more flaws than the customers do, and just hopes it's good enough to please someone, somewhere.

If you make them aware of a hangup or even just something you don't like about a product, and you're nice about it, and they ignore you or say "poo that, I owe you no professional courtesy", then maybe it's wrong to name them on the forums, but nothing stops a person from letting others know what their experiences are with a vendor while conversing elsewhere. You can just say you don't like them as much as another vendor, and it's enough to sway most people who are looking for advice on where to shop.

Ethical vendors tend to be very aware of this fact, and will at least try to make the customer happy. Iunno about anyone else, but if someone really just couldn't stand something they got from me, I'd just tell them to throw it away and either give them a refund of my cut of the sale or ask them if they'd like something else from my shop instead. If the main focus of selling something isn't to deliver what you're advertising to the best of your ability and make your customers happy, then don't expect to make much money as a merchant.

At least not once the word gets around. And we all know that in reality, NOTHING can stop the word getting around.

Edited January 15, 2023 by PheebyKatz