New Second Life terms and conditions

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I don't feel all that bad about being a "mediocre figure" in SL.

People who belittle others are often..jealous.

Just sayin'.

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ok, so I got it wrong.

Does that mean people will keep getting charged then, if they can't get to their dashboard in order to delete their account, WITHOUT accepting? (LikeISaid, Catch-22?)

One would assume so.  That would/could put your account in arrears thus locking you out.

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ok, so I got it wrong.

Does that mean people will keep getting charged then, if they can't get to their dashboard in order to delete their account, WITHOUT accepting? (LikeISaid, Catch-22?)

I don't really see a big deal agreeing to it, if you are just going in there to delete your account as soon as you get in there anyways..

When you delete your account, you end the relationship and aren't held to any agreement anymore.. Tie up any loose ends and go your separate ways..

[Rowan Amore]

13 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

That's what I was meaning by that.. If I have a problem with the terms of service to where I opt out, that means I won't be wanting their service anymore..

I don't look at my inventory as an investment of my money..I see it as a money sink or a drain for entertainment. If my inventory was an investment and I didn't agree with the TOS, I would go ahead and agree.. Then go in and start cashing out my inventory and then cancel my account afterwards..

Over the years I've become less and less emotionally invested  in it. So it's much easier to put behind me than it used to be, so i can get a lot more picky  with staying or going.

 

 

 

 

I don't process credit.  I don't maintain a USD balance.  The new ToS won't really impact me.  

People do have the option, as you've said of accepting, cashing out then deleting their LL and Tilia accounts.  

If LL closed the doors tomorrow and none of us could log in anywhere, we'd be in the same boat as those not accepting the new ToS.

Business as usual.

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

I don't process credit.  I don't maintain a USD balance.  The new ToS won't really impact me.  

People do have the option, as you've said of accepting, cashing out then deleting their LL and Tilia accounts.  

If LL closed the doors tomorrow and none of us could log in anywhere, we'd be in the same boat as those not accepting the new ToS.

Business as usual.

I was mainly talking about my SL inventory the clothes and things.. I hear a lot of people say's  I've invested this much into my inventory..

As far as USD and them closing to doors and all that USD sitting on tilla accounts.. They may have to square those accounts up before they do, Because there may be laws  broken if they don't.. If there is a law that does protect that USD, then a TOS cannot go outside of it.. You can bet it would be looked into pretty quick by someone.. Maybe even a class action suit.

I haven't really looked into all that myself, because I don't cash out or have usd sitting anywhere.. But it's something interesting that I might start to look into.. It's kind of fun researching laws and  things like that when you are focused on a certain subject.. It's draining as hell too.. hehehehe

 

 

[Anna Salyx]

On 10/31/2022 at 3:39 PM, Jaylinbridges said:

 If Tilia thinks those DD in your Stored Value Account were obtained illegally, such as someone gifting you Linden Dollars, or someone files a false AR against you, they will not release your DD's to you, and can in fact take them from you.  This is nothing like a passbook savings account. 

You managed to drag me back despite my attempt to gracefully leave the table.  So. 

If Tilia is informed that that those funds might have legality issues.  Tilia is not making the decision, my bank doesn't make the decision either.  But let's face it -- much the TOS changes we are going back and forth over here, those that you quoted, those are Linden Lab TOS wording that try (badly IMO) to sum up what Tilia's TOS is.  Coupled with that is that they are in bad lawyer speak.  But they do in fact point back to the Tilia TOS form which is good. And so, for the gritty details, we must to go back to Tilia's TOS which is ultimately the final word.  "Tilia may at it discretion blah blah blah" is true.  but to understand that discretion we have to head over to Tilia and see what they say in section 4.3.  They are much clearer even if they are still in lawer-ese.

In summary:

* You may redeem all or part of any fiat-denominated balance held in your Stored Value Balance at any time.
* Funds will be transferred to your bank account or payment service provider which you have identified to us and which [Tilia] support[s]. Prior to permitting you to redeem funds, Tilia may require you to demonstrate that the name associated with your Tilia Account matches the name associated with your bank account or account with another payment service provider
* [Tilia] will charge a redemption fee (a “Redemption Fee”) upon redemption of your Stored Value Balance. This fee is set out in the Fee Schedule published on the Website (which shall include the relevant Publisher platform).
* [Tilia has] the right to impose limitations on your Account if [Tilia] suspect[s] that your Account is associated with illegal or suspicious activities, fraud, or otherwise poses a risk to us, the Tilia Service, a Platform or other third parties. Prior to permitting you to redeem funds from your Stored Value Balance, [Tilia] may conduct checks for the purposes of preventing fraud, money laundering, terrorist financing and other financial crimes. You may be prevented or delayed from withdrawing funds in the Stored Value Balance until those checks are completed to [Tilia's] reasonable satisfaction in order to comply with [Tilia's] regulatory requirements.
* If these Terms are terminated or your Account is closed for any reason, [Tilia] will redeem any funds remaining in your Stored Value Balance and transfer funds to the bank account you have registered with [Tilia].

and from section 8.7 (Abandoned property) this it the "Escheatment" I referenced. 

*If you leave funds in your Stored Value Balance unused for the period of time set forth by your state, country, or other governing body of residence in its unclaimed property laws, or if you close your Account and leave funds in your Stored Value Balance, or if [Tilia] terminate[s] your Account and you do not meet any conditions necessary to reinstate it within six (6) months, [Tilia] may process your funds in accordance with [Tilia's] legal obligations, including by submitting your funds to the appropriate governing body as required by law.

None of those are in contrary to or out of the ordinary with any other money processing service. In all, they all boil down to the fact that the fiat currency held in the Stored Value Account is real money and subject to real laws.  If any funds go into state abandoned property you'd have go through the state for that.  That's not difficult, just annoying.

Quote

Besides any savings account being instantly transferable to a checking account ONLINE, for the past 35 years,

Not a passbook savings account. That is the function of such an account. The money held therein is not accessible unless and until I physically/personally go into a branch office, with my physical passbook, talk to a bank representative (teller), present my passbook, and request action be taken (deposit, withdrawal, transfer).  That's the key feature of why I use one. They are rare, now, and hard to find sometimes, but if you want that extra layer of security, they are worth seeking out.

Quote

I have never heard of a bank saying we think the funds in your savings account are suspicious, so we will not pay you your USD savings balance.  Not without a court order at least. 

No, but different agencies can (and do) put liens and holds on bank accounts all the time if there is reasonable suspicion of something hinky. And it *is* federal (US) law that savings account with financial institutions to reserve the right to require 7 days advance notice for any withdrawals even if they never exercise it. Banks always reserve the right to delay and make sure things are square. (and granted that is probably for any large transactions, but the regulation exists just the same.)

[Jaylinbridges]

1 hour ago, Anna Salyx said:

But let's face it -- much the TOS changes we are going back and forth over here, those that you quoted, those are Linden Lab TOS wording that try (badly IMO) to sum up what Tilia's TOS is.  Coupled with that is that they are in bad lawyer speak.  But they do in fact point back to the Tilia TOS form which is good.

But you agreed to the Oct 31, 2022 TOS from SL, which adds the "hold" provision that Tilia does not have.  This is not bad wording to me, it is a specific change in the TOS that you must agree to or never be able to log into SL again.  I don't think you can pick and choose which TOS is in effect now.  You agreed to both.  And the only change from the May 2022 Tilia TOS that SL made is to hold funds in your Stored Value Account, if you have a future payment to SL.

There are no details as to the future hold time.  Is it 2 days, 6 days, 30 days, 6 months?  If I have a Premium Plus payment due in December, is SL going to hold $249 USD in my Tilia SVB account today?  At what point in time am I not allowed to reduce my SVB to $0 USD, by a Process Credit cashout?   

Tilia TOS  May 10, 2022:

4.3 Withdrawals and Redemptions

You may redeem all or part of any fiat-denominated balance held in your Stored Value Balance at any time.

Second Life TOS Oct 31, 2022:

4.3 Process Credit from Stored Value Account to Permitted Account

If you accumulate more value in your Stored Value Account than you need to pay amounts associated with your use of Second Life, Tilia may, in its discretion and subject to its agreement with Second Life, allow you to request a refund from your Stored Value Account. Subject to your compliance with Tilia’s Terms of Service, you may be permitted to request that Tilia process a credit from your Stored Value Account, in an amount equal to all or a portion of the available funds associated with your Stored Value Account, to your PayPal account or other account permitted by Tilia. Tilia, in its sole discretion, will approve or deny your request. 

Notice Tilia is subject to its agreement with Second Life and theirTOS, which everyone must accept to continue in SL.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[Ceka Cianci]

2 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

But you agreed to the Oct 31, 2022 TOS from SL, which adds the "hold" provision that Tilia does not have.  This is not bad wording to me, it is a specific change in the TOS that you must agree to or never be able to log into SL again.  I don't think you can pick and choose which TOS is in effect now.  You agreed to both.  And the only change from the May 2022 Tilia TOS that SL made is to hold funds in your Stored Value Account, if you have a future payment to SL.

There are no details as to the future hold time.  Is it 2 days, 6 days, 30 days, 6 months?  If I have a Premium Plus payment due in December, is SL going to hold $249 USD in my Tilia SVB account today?  At what point in time am I not allowed to reduce my SVB to $0 USD, by a Process Credit cashout?   

Tilia TOS  May 10, 2022:

4.3 Withdrawals and Redemptions

You may redeem all or part of any fiat-denominated balance held in your Stored Value Balance at any time.

Second Life TOS Oct 31, 2022:

4.3 Process Credit from Stored Value Account to Permitted Account

If you accumulate more value in your Stored Value Account than you need to pay amounts associated with your use of Second Life, Tilia may, in its discretion and subject to its agreement with Second Life, allow you to request a refund from your Stored Value Account. Subject to your compliance with Tilia’s Terms of Service, you may be permitted to request that Tilia process a credit from your Stored Value Account, in an amount equal to all or a portion of the available funds associated with your Stored Value Account, to your PayPal account or other account permitted by Tilia. Tilia, in its sole discretion, will approve or deny your request. 

Notice Tilia is subject to its agreement with Second Life and theirTOS, which everyone must accept to continue in SL.

 

 

If the Tilla TOS is from May 2022, then you already agreed to that tos back then and wouldn't need to agree to it again. So really you are only agreeing to the new changes in the Linden TOS..

If the Tilla TOS changes, we'll probably have to agree with that one when that time comes.

From what i read from the Tilla TOS, they pretty much pull any fees owed to them and any owed to the publishers platform, which is going to be LL in our case. I couldn't find anything on future payments not due yet.. just what is owed.

If you have that section ,can you link it to me , I'd like to read it, because this is all really interesting and has my curiosity piqued. hehehe

Any delays or holds are pretty much because of LL, unless Tilla smells something fishy..

Check out the 3.Payment Processing service, section in Tilla's TOS.. See if that will help answer any questions, if you haven't already.

I tried getting there from the LL TOS , but the link didn't work ,so I had to find it myself.. Bad LL, BAD!! \o/ make me do all this extra things and running around.. Gonna make me wear out my finger shoes!

https://www.tilia.io/legal/terms-of-service

Edited November 2, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Jaylinbridges]

6 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

If the Tilla TOS is from May 2022, then you already agreed to that tos back then and wouldn't need to agree to it again. So really you are only agreeing to the new changes in the Linden TOS..

If the Tilla TOS changes, we'll probably have to agree with that one when that time comes.

I never said you had to agree with the Tilia TOS again, since you did in May, or whenever you agreed to the Tilia TOS for PIOF or a Process Credit.  Not sure what your point was there.  The Oct 31st SL TOS's (there are three of them) did NOT include the Tilia TOS. 

The Tilia TOS is written to apply to any of their customers, not just Second Life.  SL can and did add extra rules to the process credit, and Tilia as they say, will comply with the new SL TOS.  SL is just another Publisher with a Platform.  Read the first section of the Tilia TOS:

The Tilia Service is offered through Tilia’s integrations with websites (each, a "Platform") that are offered by third parties (each, a "Publisher"). Access to all or a portion of the Tilia Service through these Platforms and Publishers may be available or discontinued at the sole discretion of Tilia. You agree that your use of the Platform through which you access the Tilia Service is governed by the relevant Publisher's end user license agreement and/or terms of use, including, without limitation, password and account security policies (collectively, the "Platform TOS"). We do not assume any responsibility for the content, policies or practices of any Platform, Publisher or other third party, including any Platform TOS, and you hereby agree that we are not liable for any loss arising from your use of any Platform, any act or omission of any Publisher or other third party, or the terms of any Platform TOS.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[Giovanni Tardis]

I haven't been inworld in some time; nor do I stay logged into my dashboard.

So, as previously clarified,

I could not get into SL with FS without agreeing to TOS

I could not log into my account in the dashboard without agreeing to TOS

I could log into the forums (obviously).

The point is that if I could not log into the viewer and could not log into the dashboard without agreeing to TOS, I would have no way of (transferring Linden) or closing my account - without agreeing to their terms.

Gee, that felt crappy.

But I'm just going to sign the TOS and continue life here as usual.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Giovanni Tardis
content

[Eirynne Sieyes]

Hmmm... I tried logging in an alt that is never used into Redegast and, same thing. Had to accept TOS.

[Rolig Loon]

That's the way it's worked each time LL has updated their TOS, as far back as I can remember (2007).  You always have the option of not agreeing to the change, but then you can't use the service. LL would have to make a dramatically scary change to make me take that option seriously, though. I don't waste much of my time worrying about the sky falling, so I click the Accept box and carry on. YMMV.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

LL would have to make a dramatically scary change to make me take that option seriously, though. I don't waste much of my time worrying about the sky falling, so I click the Accept box and carry on. YMMV.

^^ Yes!! This!!

[Ceka Cianci]

7 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

I never said you had to agree with the Tilia TOS again, since you did in May, or whenever you agreed to the Tilia TOS for PIOF or a Process Credit.  Not sure what your point was there.  The Oct 31st SL TOS's (there are three of them) did NOT include the Tilia TOS. 

The Tilia TOS is written to apply to any of their customers, not just Second Life.  SL can and did add extra rules to the process credit, and Tilia as they say, will comply with the new SL TOS.  SL is just another Publisher with a Platform.  Read the first section of the Tilia TOS:

The Tilia Service is offered through Tilia’s integrations with websites (each, a "Platform") that are offered by third parties (each, a "Publisher"). Access to all or a portion of the Tilia Service through these Platforms and Publishers may be available or discontinued at the sole discretion of Tilia. You agree that your use of the Platform through which you access the Tilia Service is governed by the relevant Publisher's end user license agreement and/or terms of use, including, without limitation, password and account security policies (collectively, the "Platform TOS"). We do not assume any responsibility for the content, policies or practices of any Platform, Publisher or other third party, including any Platform TOS, and you hereby agree that we are not liable for any loss arising from your use of any Platform, any act or omission of any Publisher or other third party, or the terms of any Platform TOS.

It was kind of late and my eyes were seeing blurred text after awhile plus was kind of tired when posting, so i apologize if anything came off as smartass'ish.. it wasn't meant that way.I'm just trying to figure this stuff out as well.

Mainly, I was trying to find where they were saying something about holding for future payments.. I couldn't find that in either of them.

You seem to be worried about them pulling payments from your stored value account 30 days from now, for a payment that isn't due yet.. When they make their deductions when they are due and not before.

Is the stored value account the only place they can get a premium plus payment from you? Don't you have to have payment information to even have a premium plus account?

If they went to use your payment information and found they couldn't use it because of it being outdated and unusable, then ya I could see them pulling their money if the due date fell under the transaction period.

If it was usable, Wouldn't they just use that rather than dip from a transaction that has already been processing for close to a month?

Isn't the stored value account, just another way that you can make payments and not the only way?

I've been searching to see if a basic can upgrade to premium with a stored value account and haven't been able to find it, so I'm not sure..

I don't know why LL would let someone become premium or premium plus member, without some sort of other way to back it up, besides what they generate in second life to put in a stored value account.

I don't cash out and only really ever used my payment information to make any payments, so it has me curious is all..

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Arielle Popstar]

Wonders how many less pages this thread would be if the top posters in it were not having to reiterate how they don't care about the new ToS.

[Rolig Loon]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Wonders how many less pages this thread would be if the top posters in it were not having to reiterate how they don't care about the new ToS.

Or if all the rest were not having to tell us how much they don't care for it.  It wouldn't be much of a discussion if either group opted out.

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Rolig Loon said:

Or if all the rest were not having to tell us how much they don't care for it.  It wouldn't be much of a discussion if either group opted out.

One group at least pointing out why and where the problems lie. As you said, YMMV but there is enough ambiguity within those ToS's that some are going to run into problems getting their monies out of Tilia and S/L.

[Rolig Loon]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

One group at least pointing out why and where the problems lie. As you said, YMMV but there is enough ambiguity within those ToS's that some are going to run into problems getting their monies out of Tilia and S/L.

True, but that's no reason to imply that people who see it only as a minor annoyance can't say so. 

[Ceka Cianci]

7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Wonders how many less pages this thread would be if the top posters in it were not having to reiterate how they don't care about the new ToS.

I can't see the problem really.. It seems pretty civil in here and good conversation..Plus researching things has been kind of interesting too..

 

 

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

True, but that's no reason to imply that people who see it only as a minor annoyance can't say so. 

I did point to the top posters who just keep repeating themselves without bringing anything new. Just comes across as a bit trollie and fan boi/girl. 

3 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I can't see the problem really.. It seems pretty civil in here and good conversation..Plus researching things has been kind of interesting too..

Wasn't meaning you because you do at least bring new information to the table pro and con.

[Love Zhaoying]

26 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Wonders how many less pages this thread would be if the top posters in it were not having to reiterate how they don't care about the new ToS.

There's a new ToS? Do you care about it?

[Love Zhaoying]

28 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Is the stored value account the only place they can get a premium plus payment from you? Don't you have to have payment information to even have a premium plus account?

I thought you could pay for "anything", even membership fees, with a L$ balance.

[Emma Krokus]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I thought you could pay for "anything", even membership fees, with a L$ balance.

You can - you have to exchange your L$ for US$ first though.

[Ceka Cianci]

13 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I thought you could pay for "anything", even membership fees, with a L$ balance.

Ya, you can pay for fees with it and other payments that are usd, but I haven't seen anything in the searches that I've made about being able to upgrade with a stored value account.. You might be able to..

I would think to even get involved with real money transfers, you have to have payment info on file..

I would think you would need it on file before you became premium, as well as if you went to cash out as a basic.

I would think they would use that, before they would pull from a transaction that is already processing. then if there is problems with that information, delay and pull what is due from the transaction.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Love Zhaoying]

23 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

stored value account..

What are you referring to when you use this term? 

I assumed you meant "Tillia", then I assumed you meant "L$ balance that can be used for payments".

It is not a term that I am familiar with.