Proposal - a covenant for mainland

[Gabriele Graves]

15 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

That clearly show the value of land with high quality access to transport routes.

What does that have to do with controlling what people can build?

[xDancingStarx]

The argument is often that mainland is for people who don't want any restrictions, and people who do want restrictions should get a Linden home. This is reiterated like an ideology. Like there were only black and white. The truth is that there are many people on mainland who love creativity and at the same time care about what mainland looks like. This isn't about anyone wanting to play style nazi and forbid anything that doesn't meet high standards. It's about pure minimums. And of course there would be the demand for a continent where people don't slap 4 large 2D walls around their parcel to shut themselves off of the connected land that they intentionally went to, shutting themselves off not only in the way of placing a pretty wall around their parcel, but on a meta level where their walls make them non existent in a community sense, like a skybox on the ground. Of course Linden has no interest in such a continent, even if it were possible to define common ground rules, which would be hard enough, because they can't make any money out of it.

[Gabriele Graves]

Unfortunately for you there is a gaping hole of evidence that the mainland masses want what you claim.  In the absence of concrete data showing that you are right, it would be remiss of LL to enforce changes on all of mainland's residents.

Under a restrictive covenant it wouldn't be possible to provide anyone with a sandbox as they don't meet anyone's definition of minimum standards.  LL's own sandboxes technically would violate it too and they would have to make an exception for themselves or move them off mainland.

Nobody would be able to create a post-apocalyptic or junkyard build because someone with a daisy garden nearby would complain about it not looking pretty, spoiling the view and their land prices.

This is the situation with Linden Homes, nobody can use their land like a sandbox and leave plywood prim structures in an unfinished state for weeks at a time nor can they decorate their home in a post-apocalyptic or junkyard theme, it's not allowed by the rules.  Heck you cannot even leave your seasonal decorations out longer than allowed.

So to have "minimum standards" LL would have to decide what "theme" mainland or areas of mainland would have to be.

Belli's rules aren't arbitrary.  They were carefully thought through to create the effect you see there today.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Gabriele Graves

[Qie Niangao]

16 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

I believe the main differentiator is two fold... (1) Belli is the best value in SL (if you are Premium) and (2) Belli requires almost no SL knowledge (i.e. extremely low barrier to entry for noobs).

Those were also differentiators for the original Linden Homes ("LH1"), which were never the crazy success Bellisseria enjoys. Before Belli, Linden Homes' 512m² size corresponded to the standard Premium "bonus tier" on Mainland, just as Belli's (mostly) 1024m² corresponds to the current bonus tier. So why did Belli wildly succeed where LH1 served a purpose with little market enthusiasm?

• Could be that 1024 is a critical mass for land ownership.
• Could be the mesh homes are "good enough" whereas the old sculpt and prim models weren't acceptable even by olde timey standards.
• Could be Moles got smarter about continent design, with more focus on water and road access and less on footpaths from nowhere to nowhere.
• Could be that there's appeal to being connected to existing Mainland continents. (Similarly, the private sailing sims around Blake Sea were a lot less successful before MarkTwain White worked his mutually lucrative sea-sharing deal with Jack.)
• Could be pandemic timing because everything is pandemic timing.

And I think all those were enough to make Belli a viable replacement for LH1. I think it really took off when the covenant  changed to bar the worst orb abuses.

Are there other covenant advances, compared to LH1? Maybe. I honestly don't know.

But whatever those advances beyond LH1* may be, it seems reasonable to consider how much value they might add to other Land products, including "normal" Mainland as well as parts with "urban" zoning restrictions.

________________
*And, honestly, the skybox height floor (which were completely banned from LH1). I mean, c'mon. There's simply no non-ideological reason for skyboxes below 1000m, and hasn't been since the build ceiling lifted from 768m. 

[Gabriele Graves]

If what you are saying is true @Qie Niangao then there is no need to change mainland at all.  Just add more and more Belli regions and wait for people to move over.  Once mainland is empty then LL can consider closing mainland.  If that's what people want, it's simple.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Those were also differentiators for the original Linden Homes ("LH1"), which were never the crazy success Bellisseria enjoys. Before Belli, Linden Homes' 512m² size corresponded to the standard Premium "bonus tier" on Mainland, just as Belli's (mostly) 1024m² corresponds to the current bonus tier. So why did Belli wildly succeed where LH1 served a purpose with little market enthusiasm?

• Could be that 1024 is a critical mass for land ownership.
• Could be the mesh homes are "good enough" whereas the old sculpt and prim models weren't acceptable even by olde timey standards.
• Could be Moles got smarter about continent design, with more focus on water and road access and less on footpaths from nowhere to nowhere.
• Could be that there's appeal to being connected to existing Mainland continents. (Similarly, the private sailing sims around Blake Sea were a lot less successful before MarkTwain White worked his mutually lucrative sea-sharing deal with Jack.)
• Could be pandemic timing because everything is pandemic timing.

And I think all those were enough to make Belli a viable replacement for LH1. I think it really took off when the covenant  changed to bar the worst orb abuses.

Are there other covenant advances, compared to LH1? Maybe. I honestly don't know.

But whatever those advances beyond LH1* may be, it seems reasonable to consider how much value they might add to other Land products, including "normal" Mainland as well as parts with "urban" zoning restrictions.

________________
*And, honestly, the skybox height floor (which were completely banned from LH1). I mean, c'mon. There's simply no non-ideological reason for skyboxes below 1000m, and hasn't been since the build ceiling lifted from 768m. 

I suspect that one reason Belli was so popular is, it had been quite awhile since new homes / "better", "more attractive" homes had been released.  Wait long enough, release new/better stuff, and people who didn't like the old stuff will be interested.  Plus, the "limited release" / "wait and see" built some level of demand, anticipation, and excitement.  Making it somewhat "exclusive" added to the possibility of "community". 

All just my opinion, but I really like all your points, too!

I think it is interesting that the post you quoted seemed to completely overlook the existence of the previous LH.  I am surprised if / that the new covenants and orb rules made that big a difference.  But, everyone uses Second Life differently.

 

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I suspect that one reason Belli was so popular is, it had been quite awhile since new homes / "better", "more attractive" homes had been released.  Wait long enough, release new/better stuff, and people who didn't like the old stuff will be interested.  Plus, the "limited release" / "wait and see" built some level of demand, anticipation, and excitement.  Making it somewhat "exclusive" added to the possibility of "community". 

^^^ This.  Belli was very popular even before the orb changes.  I remember when they came in, houses were already in short supply.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

If what you are saying is true @Qie Niangao then there is no need to change mainland at all.  Just add more and more Belli regions and wait for people to move over.  Once mainland is empty then LL can consider closing mainland.  If that's what people want, it's simple.

In your post and a few others, I cannot tell if by "mainland" is meant "Linden Homes" land, or "build-your-own, rent or buy" mainland.  I can see enough of "everyone" moving from old "Linden Homes" mainland, but not the "build-your-own, rent or buy" mainland, for LL to "close mainland". Meaning, LL could "close" the old "Linden Homes" mainland, but not the "build-your-own, rent or buy" mainland.

[Aethelwine]

5 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

 

If people wanted more rules because it would make mainland better looking then more collectives would form to create communities, create their own rules and mainland would be awash with them and their desires for that.  It's not, if anything they are a dying breed.  That would be my counter-claim.

Whilst places like the East River Community have gone the land owners replacing them have so far subscribed to a similar ethos. There don't seem to be many regions now without GT FO hubs on them built in the last few years.  You are not looking in the right places if you are not seeing thriving and healthy investments in mainland for Community building purposes. 

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

In your post and a few others, I cannot tell if by "mainland" is meant "Linden Homes" land, or "build-your-own, rent or buy" mainland.  I can see enough of "everyone" moving from old "Linden Homes" mainland, but not the "build-your-own, rent or buy" mainland, for LL to "close mainland". Meaning, LL could "close" the old "Linden Homes" mainland, but not the "build-your-own, rent or buy" mainland.

Linden Homes are a different estate and not considered mainland by LL, not even the original ones.  If I talk about mainland, it is not about Linden Homes.

[Gabriele Graves]

2 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Whilst places like the East River Community have gone the land owners replacing them have so far subscribed to a similar ethos. There don't seem to be many regions now without GT FO hubs on them built in the last few years.  You are not looking in the right places if you are not seeing thriving and healthy investments in mainland for Community building purposes. 

Having a GTFO hub is not building a local residential community for that region.  I'm looking at the vast swathes of mainland without any residential communities, nobody has to look far.

[Aethelwine]

5 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Having a GTFO hub is not building a local residential community for that region.  I'm looking at the vast swathes of mainland without any residential communities, nobody has to look far.

Where as i would say they do. I can't quote figures but they would seem likely to increase land values too by providing community facilities even if just coffee, seating and rezzing. 

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Aethelwine said:

Where as i would say they do. I can't quote figures but they would seem likely to increase land values too by providing community facilities even if just coffee, seating and rezzing. 

You and I have a different definition of a residential community then.

As a related detour, there are people who think that truck stops, gas pumps and auto-workshops are every bit as much of an eyesore as other clutter on mainland.  I speak only from personal conversations I've had of course but even in RL not many people want to live right by a highway with those kinds of things around and by the same token don't want to see them around them in SL either.

That's the problem with a covenant, whose vision is the correct one for that area?

I put forward that to resolve this mainland would have to be completely redone with zoning at least in mind.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

You and I have a different definition of a residential community then.

As a related detour, there are people who think that truck stops, gas pumps and auto-workshops are every bit as much of an eyesore as other clutter on mainland.  I speak only from personal conversations I've had of course but even in RL not many people want to live right by a highway with those kinds of things around and by the same token don't want to see them around them in SL either.

That's the problem with a covenant, whose vision is the correct one for that area?

I put forward that to resolve this mainland would have to be completely redone with zoning at least in mind.

I see Belli as a "bedroom community".  You just can't shop, eat, or DO anything there besides be at a home or community gathering area.  Because that's all there is. 

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

I see Belli as a "bedroom community".  You just can't shop, eat, or DO anything there besides be at a home or community gathering area.  Because that's all there is. 

Even RL HOA's allow you to shop and eat

[Freddie Venus]

36 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I see Belli as a "bedroom community".  You just can't shop, eat, or DO anything there besides be at a home or community gathering area.  Because that's all there is. 

You can drive, sail and fly....at least that's what I do. 

Or you can pick up my Bellisseria landmarks notecards and find some things you probably never realised were there. 😉

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

If what you are saying is true @Qie Niangao then there is no need to change mainland at all.  Just add more and more Belli regions and wait for people to move over.  Once mainland is empty then LL can consider closing mainland.  If that's what people want, it's simple.

I can't tell if you're serious, but  just in case you are: Of course there are many differences between Mainland and Belli, besides the abusive orbs and low-hanging skyboxes. I have a sim's worth of scattered Mainland parcels because I love its diversity, even if some of it is "ugly" in the eyes of gated community-dwelling swells. I'm sure some of my own older builds are "ugly" by some standards, but I'll never give them up.

Mainland orbs, however, are aggressively newbie-hostile, and low altitude skyboxes are uniformly eyesores (as well as casting more shadows as they approach practical draw depth, for the increasing number of us who run with shadows all the time).

[Love Zhaoying]

47 minutes ago, Madonna666 said:

You can drive, sail and fly....at least that's what I do. 

Or you can pick up my Bellisseria landmarks notecards and find some things you probably never realised were there. 😉

I see all the (sorry) annoying Belli threads! 😉

Now that I don't live there, I don't feel as empowered. 

Putting it gently, I don't really care - I could explore anywhere.  Of course, the Moles did such a fabulous job, I should feel ashamed for not wanting to explore Belli in all its beauty and diversity.

I guess the difference is, maybe I would see other avatars in Belli!  Now that's a novelty!!!  W00t!

 

[SarahThe Wanderer]

There's one rule i want to be forced in mainland, No skybox under 1500 m , because this is unacceptable, no matter how you try to reason it:

they can't even see outside thier skybox, so why have it on the ground!! not because you can, but because you're a 🤬

[xDancingStarx]

2 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Unfortunately for you there is a gaping hole of evidence that the mainland masses want what you claim.  In the absence of concrete data showing that you are right, it would be remiss of LL to enforce changes on all of mainland's residents.

I'm not sure if this is the "general you" thing again, but you're responding apparently to me, and with no word I have advocated for forcing anything on "all of mainland's residents". I wrote, and I quote: "Of course Linden has no interest in such a continent". By which I obviously didn't mean all of mainland, and I should have specified, not an existing continent. Obviously I don't have any numbers, as you don't have any numbers. Which doesn't matter anyway, as, as stated, it would be too expensive for LL to maintain a stricter covenant without getting anything in return. I doubt people are willing to pay more for land than they're paying currently.

[xDancingStarx]

50 minutes ago, SarahThe Wanderer said:

because this is unacceptable, no matter how you try to reason it

As you can see in this thread, "creativity" seems to justify everything.

[Coffee Pancake]

Mainland is caught between opposing forces.

The old guard leadership remember when mainland was 15 regions and they were all awesome (and heavily moderated), so why wouldn't we want that and more of that. They stand back and admire the chaos .. for 5 whole minutes and then log off to talk about it to people who don't know what it is and wouldn't want it even if it was free.

Modern users are stuck with it, they want the freedom to build, security of ownership, and an amount of land that aligns with LL's dumb-as-rocks powers of 2 tier pricing model, and are just left hoping that some idiot wont show up next door with a 40ft phallus, or 300 meeroo, or worse .. because as this is SL, it really can always be worse.

Then we have the explorers and GTFO players who really don't care about how anyone else uses mainland, just so long as it exists as a backdrop their nomadic adventures (oh look, bait)

Toss in all the locked, owned, (functionally & technically) abandoned land, ability for small land owners to monopolize an entire region with a club, sentimental relics, garbage, litter and full bright. What do we have .. a niche "product" in a niche virtual world that's more dead and empty than it looks.

LL don't know what to do with it, don't much care what people do on it, and treat it as a low priority. This filters though to every point of interaction they have with it, including governance.

 

[diamond Marchant]

2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

LL don't know what to do with it, don't much care what people do on it, and treat it as a low priority.

Yes. It is what it is. I just hope they are finding ways to cut their expenses by under-powering areas that are rarely visited.

I think each of us has their own view of what a virtual world should be. LL has (through historical accident?) given us options. As Coffee has pointed out, they also continue to support some dumb-as-rocks policies of which tier pricing is only one example. In the future, when these lights are out, SL may be looked upon as a time when many things were tried and we learned stuff.

Someone mentioned LH1. Funny, I never ever considered LH1 because you can't sail or fly there and it seemed like solitary confinement. I have never used a sandbox and don't care about them. When I rez something, I want it to stay around until I decide otherwise.  Messy mainland? I just consider that "fly-over-regions" and consider it a challenge to avoid orbs and floaty things.

My point is is that each of us has their own Second Life. This is the golden age. Enjoy it while it lasts.

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by diamond Marchant

[Coffee Pancake]

9 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

Yes. It is what it is. I just hope they are finding ways to cut their expenses by under-powering areas that are rarely visited.

That might well be what they are doing .. but I fundamentally disagree with the thinking it is the right thing for the good of the platform.

[Gabriele Graves]

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Mainland orbs, however, are aggressively newbie-hostile, and low altitude skyboxes are uniformly eyesores (as well as casting more shadows as they approach practical draw depth, for the increasing number of us who run with shadows all the time).

This is just an opinion that not everybody shares with you so why should this view prevail?