Does SL Have an Intelligentsia?

[Love Zhaoying]

18 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Won't and Can't

Woe, woe, woe is us!

[Madelaine McMasters]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Well, that's one of those things that used to be taught in English class, the difference between physically being able to do something and not being allowed to do something but ACTUALLY I put up a mangled version of the famous quote by Lenin which is:

Верхи не хотят, низы не могут

Which is translated literally as: "The tops don't want, the bottoms can't".

Or those who rule society don't want to change it; those at the bottom of society can't change it, i.e. they don't have the power.

Thank you for pointing out that you mangled the quote. The literal translation makes sense.

Your English class example actually doesn't resolve my question, as "cannot" might be caused by either lack of ability or lack of permission. More context is often required for clarification. This, of course, has no bearing on the distinction between "cannot" and "won't", which is where you mangled the quote.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Madelaine McMasters
Spelling

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Your English class example actually doesn't resolve my question, as "cannot" might be caused by either lack of ability or lack of permission.

Student: "Teacher, can I use the restroom?"

Teacher: "I don't know, CAN you?"

- Every Teach Ever

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Student: "Teacher, can I use the restroom?"

Teacher: "I don't know, CAN you?"

- Every Teach Ever

MAY I use the restroom?

[Love Zhaoying]

"Honey, sit down please. I've got some bad news."

"Oh my, what is it, dear? It's not your job? Is your mother ok? Is it the kids?"

"Now now, honey. It's none of that, it will be ok. It's just..well the doctor says.."

"What is it? Just tell me!"

"Ok, ok! The doctor says that I have..intelligentsia!"

"But, that can't be! The test has to be wrong! Can't they check again?"

"They did, they performed a second test to confirm it."

"But what does this mean? How will we face people? The stigma alone! Will the kids get it too?"

"The kids will be fine, honey. But, hear me out - there's more."

"MORE? How could there be more? I can't take any more bad news, it can't be any worse!"

"Well you see dear, I've also been diagnosed with..High IQ."

"THAT'S IT! I WANT A DIVORCE!"

Edited August 18, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[Luna Bliss]

30 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Your English class example actually doesn't resolve my question

If you scroll up a ways she clarified by saying "don't want to".  Those in power don't want a change in how society is structured.

"Верхи не хотят, низы не могут

Which is translated literally as: "The tops don't want, the bottoms can't".

Or those who rule society don't want to change it; those at the bottom of society can't change it, i.e. they don't have the power".

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Nalates Urriah]

On 8/17/2022 at 9:05 AM, Madelaine McMasters said:

Regarding Mensa, my parents and I all qualified when I was young. I wanted to join but they demurred. I no longer wish to join.

I wonder of Mensa membership means what we think it means. I wonder if declining membership means what we think it means.

I think you have to be in Mensa to figure it out...

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

I think you have to be in Mensa to figure it out...

I may not be in MENSA, but  I'm "on the intelligence spectrum"..

[Amina Sopwith]

My father was a member of Mensa. He was good at word, maths and logic puzzles so he scored highly on IQ tests, which show how good you are at IQ tests. I'm of the mind that anyone who would voluntarily spend time in his company can't be that smart.

There are lots of ways to be clever and lots of ways to be stupid.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

At one time SL had within it and around it actual professors and game designers with prominent blogs (like Tony Walsh); Lawrence Lessig gave a talk; Richard Bartle came a few times - even Judge Posner and Jonathan Fanton, head of the Macarthur Foundation held events here.

I'm not saying the SL intelligentsia, to be valid, has to hook up to external professors; I'm just saying this was the case, and those connected (like the Herald, for whom you have no regard but who played a very important role in the early years) bothered to get involved in inworld issues.

Fair enough. I'm wondering how useful the commentary of those who are not active members of the community is, though.

As I noted somewhere above, I've known a great many educators in SL -- people who are "actual professors" as you put it, and who moreover are here because they have or had an interest in the kinds of potential that VWs has to offer to educators. (The answer, at the moment is, I think, not much, or at best, a highly specialized set of cases.) An awful lot of them never wander far from their campuses or regions. Many of them still use system avatars or ancient mesh: they take something like a perverse pride, some of them, in not participating in things like avatar customization, SL consumerism, RP, club life, etc. They are "on" the platform, but really not "of" it, and their understanding, not merely of what SL actually "is," but also of what it can be, is necessarily limited. How much more limited are the perspectives of "intellectuals" who've never been on the platform at all?

How useful are the ruminations of those who have thought deeply about the theory of VW, VR, and "the Metaverse," but who have no conception of how it can play out in actuality? Somewhat useful, maybe . . .

(One of the most interesting scholarly studies of SL I've ever read was a PhD thesis on the subject of consumerism in SL -- I know the woman who wrote it, so I was privileged to read it, and attend her public lecture before her defense. She was someone who did know SL very well, as she "lived" in it for about 3 years and explored a great deal -- but her thesis, for probably evident reasons, glossed rather lightly over the relationship of sexuality to consumerism.)

[Love Zhaoying]

48 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

My father was a member of Mensa. He was good at word, maths and logic puzzles so he scored highly on IQ tests, which show how good you are at IQ tests. I'm of the mind that anyone who would voluntarily spend time in his company can't be that smart.

There are lots of ways to be clever and lots of ways to be stupid.

Reminds me, my stepmom (#2, the one that "stuck") often says she married Dad because he was "smart".

Yeah sure, too bad we can't all be a physicist and rocket scientist like Dad.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Well, you laugh, but that actually got me to thinking and for better or worse, I suppose the forums, such as it is, has the elements of the intelligentsia.

Example: recently when the Lindens put this forums "reform" over on the public without consent and without much notice, there was a group of Concerned Citizens including Arielle Popstar and Scylla and some others who made the time to go to one of those inworld office hours, which of course, can be a mixed bag. And they persisted in confronting the Lindens there. So that's all to the good. Being a good citizen or taking on the role of civil society doesn't always mean being the intelligentsia; but those who consider themselves educated and in the arts and in various civic causes of course do well by taking civic actions like this.

It's all we have. So I welcome it. 

To return to a point I made earlier here -- the "intelligentsia" can't really exist as a series of disconnected "smart people" or "thinkers": they need to be networked in an effective way that allows them to engage not merely with each other, but with the population whom they (putatively) serve.

The last point is important, I think: in the past, coteries of the "intelligentsia" were often so alienated from their own cultures that they functioned, in practice, as little more than debating clubs. The whole concept of the "public intellectual" is built upon the premise that they are engaged with the public. If they seek to make change, it is not a change effected from the top down, but rather a more fundamental paradigm shift in how the larger public thinks.

And that relates too to the point I made about "democratizing" this discourse: public intellectual, and the intelligentsia, if they are to have any relevance at all, must not merely talk at the public, but with it. The result should be, hopefully, a democracy of voices, even if the political and social mechanisms of a true democracy don't exist. If enough of a population are persuaded through well-informed and public discourse, then change can be effected even without democratic structures. Get enough people in SL sufficiently upset about something that they threaten the platform's bottom line (however minutely), and we can get action. That has happened on a few occasions in SL.

So, how do we achieve that?

SL's communication tools are awful. The suggestion that we should take such discussions in-world effectively reduces them to what I've called "debating clubs." The forums are the closest thing we've got to a platform for public discourse, but an utterly minute percentage of residents participate here, and a very small percentage of those get involved in these kinds of discussion. The SL blogosphere has contracted enormously over the years, and is dominated by (as you've said yourself) fashion blogs.

By all means, let's have in-world discussions, or threads here concerning interesting issues. I myself partake in, and even sponsor, both.

But without the kind of reach required to make this a truly public discourse, it's really all rather pointless at one level. This breed of intelligentsia is neither influencing, nor being guided by, the public they are supposedly serving.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra
Diction!

[Love Zhaoying]

Without Morty, there'd be no Rick.

Without the Pakled, there'd be no Federation.

Without the Normies, there'd be no Kinks.

Without the dumbarses, there'd be no Intelligentsia.

[Harper Held]

13 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Fair enough. I'm wondering how useful the commentary of those who are not active members of the community is, though.

 

Even active participation has a limit to its' effectiveness. To mangle Murrow "Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are more influential than when it reached only to the end of the bar."

I obviously mean Lindens; but it's just as true when applied to what goes on in-game as well. What's written in the forums tends to have little impact on the broader in-world community. Very little discussed here effects the people camping, hitting gachas or assembling their "best in contest of the day" outfits...

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Han Held said:

Even active participation has a limit to its' effectiveness. To mangle Murrow "Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are more influential than when it reached only to the end of the bar."

I obviously mean Lindens; but it's just as true when applied to what goes on in-game as well. What's written in the forums tends to have little impact on the broader in-world community. Very little discussed here effects the people camping, hitting gachas or assembling their "best in contest of the day" outfits...

 

I totally agree. (See my second post on this!)

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Han Held said:

21 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Fair enough. I'm wondering how useful the commentary of those who are not active members of the community is, though.

 

Even active participation has a limit to its' effectiveness. To mangle Murrow "Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are more influential than when it reached only to the end of the bar."

I obviously mean Lindens; but it's just as true when applied to what goes on in-game as well. What's written in the forums tends to have little impact on the broader in-world community. Very little discussed here effects the people camping, hitting gachas or assembling their "best in contest of the day" outfits...

I'm thinking for some groups, their effective usefulness (see wot I did dere?) is limited to being able to say, "We told you so!"

[Harper Held]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

To return to a point I made earlier here -- the "intelligentsia" can't really exist as a series of disconnected "smart people" or "thinkers": they need to be networked in an effective way that allows them to engage not merely with each other, but with the population whom they (putatively) serve.

The last point is important, I think: in the past, coteries of the "intelligentsia" were often so alienated from their own cultures that they functioned, in practice, as little more than debating clubs. The whole concept of the "public intellectual" is built upon the premise that they are engaged with the public. If they seek to make change, it is not a change effected from the top down, but rather a more fundamental paradigm shift in how the larger public thinks.

And that relates too to the point I made about "democratizing" this discourse: public intellectual, and the intelligentsia, if they are to have any relevance at all, must not merely talk at the public, but with it. The result should be, hopefully, a democracy of voices, even if the political and social mechanisms of a true democracy don't exist. If enough of a population are persuaded through well-informed and public discourse, then change can be effected even without democratic structures. Get enough people in SL sufficiently upset about something that they threaten the platform's bottom line (however minutely), and we can get action. That has happened on a few occasions in SL.

So, how do we achieve that?

SL's communication tools are awful. The suggestion that we should take such discussions in-world effectively reduces them to what I've called "debating clubs." The forums are the closest thing we've got to a platform for public discourse, but an utterly minute percentage of residents participate here, and a very small percentage of those get involved in these kinds of discussion. The SL blogosphere has contracted enormously over the years, and is dominated by (as you've said yourself) fashion blogs.

By all means, let's have in-world discussions, or threads here concerning interesting issues. I myself partake in, and even sponsor, both.

But without the kind of reach required to make this a truly public discourse, it's really all rather pointless at one level. This breed of intelligentsia is neither influencing, nor being guided by, the public they are supposedly serving.

The intelligentsia's job is to interpret, not to "serve". Their job is to read trends both in the larger world and with the folks that they represent and show the relationship between the two. IE "this is what's happening, this is what's influencing what is happening". Anything else is just not "on" ...attempting to dictate mores leads to resentment and backlashes, interpreting without being in touch leads to "angels on the head of a pin" disconnected nonsense.

At least, that's how this uneducated knob sees it...

[Harper Held]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I'm thinking for some groups, their effective usefulness (see wot I did dere?) is limited to being able to say, "We told you so!"

You've got a point there!

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Han Held said:

Even active participation has a limit to its' effectiveness. To mangle Murrow "Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are more influential than when it reached only to the end of the bar."

I obviously mean Lindens; but it's just as true when applied to what goes on in-game as well. What's written in the forums tends to have little impact on the broader in-world community. Very little discussed here effects the people camping, hitting gachas or assembling their "best in contest of the day" outfits...

 

But maybe it does reach those but simply not agreed with. 

[Harper Held]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

But maybe it does reach those but simply not agreed with. 

My personal experience (people doing the avatar equivalent of staring blankly when I refer to forum this or forum that) tells me it doesn't even reach.

Most disagreements appear to reflect real world influences ("I saw this on FOX", "I saw this on MSNBC") than forum influences. At least as far as I'm able to tell.

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Han Held said:

My personal experience (people doing the avatar equivalent of staring blankly when I refer to forum this or forum that) tells me it doesn't even reach.

Most disagreements appear to reflect real world influences ("I saw this on FOX", "I saw this on MSNBC") than forum influences. At least as far as I'm able to tell.

What I see in the Forums in general from certain people who think their message isn't reaching anywhere, is the same as I see on the internet in general. There are arguments for and against whatever one chooses to bring up. The culture, whether in real or virtual, changes subtly and almost imperceptibly, not in some huge changeover that goes as quickly as some think it should.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Arielle Popstar
spelling

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Han Held said:

The intelligentsia's job is to interpret, not to "serve". Their job is to read trends both in the larger world and with the folks that they represent and show the relationship between the two. IE "this is what's happening, this is what's influencing what is happening". Anything else is just not "on" ...attempting to dictate mores leads to resentment and backlashes, interpreting without being in touch leads to "angels on the head of a pin" disconnected nonsense.

At least, that's how this uneducated knob sees it...

I think that what you are describing is not so much the "intelligentsia" as academia itself -- which overlaps with, but is not synonymous with the former. Academics do exactly what you describe here -- they determine what is happening, and then try to explain it with reference to other phenomenon.

And in that sense, academics are important because they inform the discourse of the intelligentsia. They provide much of the data, the raw lumber, for their ruminations.

But, historically, the "intelligentsia" has included not merely academics, but also artists and writers, poets and musicians, labourers and students. And I think they do see their task as different from that of the scholars. Scholarship may, of course, conclude with suggestions about how to make something "better," but that is not its primary function, and the importance of objectivity and disinterested inquiry limit the degree to which they can intervene. THAT is the task of the intelligentsia. Putatively.

And, again, the "democracy of voices" thing -- the intelligentsia can't, and shouldn't "dictate." They should, at best, guide and educate. To be effective, they need to have a foot in both worlds -- both as something like scholars, but also as members of the public themselves, engaged in public discussion, rather than passing down The Law on stone tablets. Again, that's the whole premise of the "public intellectual," who is someone in the public sphere, and not above or outside it.

[Harper Held]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

What I see in the Forums in general from certain people who think their message isn't reaching anywhere, is the same as I see on the internet in general. There are arguments for and against whatever one chooses to bring up. The culture, whether in real or virtual, changes subtly and almost imperceptibly, not in some huge changeover that goes as quickly as some think it should.

I simply mean that I'll bring up references in-game that almost anyone on the forum would understand (agree with is a different thing) but the people I'm talking to will generally react with some variation of "huh, hadn't heard that one". I don't mean necessarily memes but regular discussions ("is sl a game", metaverse *anything* ). A lot of people I hang out with don't know because it has almost nothing to do with them -from their point of view.

[Love Zhaoying]

18 minutes ago, Han Held said:

The intelligentsia's job is to interpret, not to "serve".

If we could get them to limit their work then, to "interpretive dance", or poetry, I'd be fine with it.

[Harper Held]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think that what you are describing is not so much the "intelligentsia" as academia itself -- which overlaps with, but is not synonymous with the former. Academics do exactly what you describe here -- they determine what is happening, and then try to explain it with reference to other phenomenon.

And in that sense, academics are important because they inform the discourse of the intelligentsia. They provide much of the data, the raw lumber, for their ruminations.

But, historically, the "intelligentsia" has included not merely academics, but also artists and writers, poets and musicians, labourers and students. And I think they do see their task as different from that of the scholars. Scholarship may, of course, conclude with suggestions about how to make something "better," but that is not its primary function, and the importance of objectivity and disinterested inquiry limit the degree to which they can intervene. THAT is the task of the intelligentsia. Putatively.

And, again, the "democracy of voices" thing -- the intelligentsia can't, and shouldn't "dictate." They should, at best, guide and educate. To be effective, they need to have a foot in both worlds -- both as something like scholars, but also as members of the public themselves, engaged in public discussion, rather than passing down The Law on stone tablets. Again, that's the whole premise of the "public intellectual," who is someone in the public sphere, and not above or outside it.

Geez louise, I am definitely not bringing my a game today, my apologies! I'm running on 4 hours sleep.

Again, I am literally uneducated -or to split hairs self educated which is basically the same thing. I don't say this to be all "aw shucks" and crap but to head off being called out for (probably obvious) gaps in my knowledge.

I agree with your description of "intelligentsia" as being the artists, writers and musicians who have an influence on the dominant culture. Warhol and the factory scene with the way they influenced *at least* two different pop culture movements (punk and whatever you want to call the proto-goth scene of the late 70's;early 80's) is a classic example. The punk, heavy metal and hip hop movements were (co-opted) attempts by the lumpen proles to distill and express life and society as they experienced it by the writers, performers and associated ar***** going through it...and I would argue makes them Intelligentsia.

I don't feel it's a "guidance" role though there is room for that -but rather an interpretive role.