Discrimination rules to be added to TOS?

[Luna Bliss]

9 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

28 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

those who essentially force their RP on you,

This is what most bothers me about child avatars.  I don't want to be a part of your RP.  If you're talking like a 2 year old in local chat, I'll ignore you.   I'm also not going to engage with someone in an animal avatar (not furry) who only talks in emotes as if they were an actual dog.  I don't RP.  It's fine if you do but don't expect everyone to want to participate in YOUR RP.  It's not how I use MY SL.  That said, I have no problem with people using whatever type of avatar they choose.  Engage with me?  Do so as an adult human.

I know what you mean...

Once I was creating a 2-sim project for a French diplomat to some islands in the Pacific (don't laugh, real names and mega money was exchanged in those days). We were finally having this grand opening ball that had me stressed to the max. I was beside myself trying to coordinate and make the grand ball launch smoothly, and along came this child avatar who kept bugging me, asking me to shop with her for a gown and all. She was quite demanding and I became majorly irritated.
What was strange is that I don't think she was even roleplaying a child -- she seemed to be exhibiting a simple selfish twit personality, and with the verbal ability of someone at least twice her age! ...lol.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

This is what most bothers me about child avatars.  I don't want to be a part of your RP.  If you're talking like a 2 year old in local chat, I'll ignore you.   I'm also not going to engage with someone in an animal avatar (not furry) who only talks in emotes as if they were an actual dog.  I don't RP.  It's fine if you do but don't expect everyone to want to participate in YOUR RP.  It's not how I use MY SL.  That said, I have no problem with people using whatever type of avatar they choose.  Engage with me?  Do so as an adult human.

I agree -- it's actually about consent.

That said -- because I obviously so desperately want to be luuuuurved! -- I do often try to respond to them in their chosen roles.

But it's deeply uncomfortable, awkward, and cringy.

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But it's deeply uncomfortable, awkward, and cringy.

It is...I don't like it.

But how many do infringe on others with their roleplay?  It does happen I know, per the experience I described above.

I created a sim once for a big group of child avatars and none of them expected me to roleplay though.

So I do worry about unfair stereotypes.

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes, thank God. There was also a lot of virtual-signalling going on -- Look at me, I'm protecting children!! -- which has mostly been replaced with a calmer, more nuanced understanding.

Still see some of that inworld though, occasionally.

I don't remember the virtue signaling things, but  I think because I was so focused on trying to make sure I understood the standards to be able to hold ground..

We had child avatar friends in RA that were really good people.. Seeing them get slammed like that by gangs of people.. There was people goig out of their way from the other forums to come over and gang up on them..

In RA a lot of people shared content of their SL all the time and I really enjoyed their content.. I would even get immersed in their world seeing the images they were posting up and the things they would say about the images.. I took it as  these people are picking on my friends and going out of their way to do it..

Some might have been doing that signaling thing, but I think there were some that were backing up their friends too.. The last time I studied anything that hard was when I was in school.. LOL

[PheebyKatz]

I hardly know any SL kids who use kidspeak or baby talk. If anything, too many of them talk like grownups. WAY too much like grownups.

My whole SL is RP to me, I'm a character living in a made-up fantasy world. That said, I realize there are places people go where I'd seem out of place, or even like a troll or something just by being there. I avoid these places, because I'm really not into violating the TOS and that's all I'd be doing if I actually engaged in anything other than walking around in said places.

I see no reason why, as a small person, I'd be inclined to go to a lesbian club or one of those "dogger" sims or any of the adult sims I see in people's profiles, so I'd think it ridiculous to assert some "right" to visit and explore them and make everyone who actually makes the place happen uncomfortable.

I also get that some biker sims etc., are family-oriented, and some are not. I fully support their right to have things the way they want. Some RL families are bikers, and some bikers are definitely NOT family-oriented people, and so even IRL there tend to be separate sorts of events in their community, depending on which crowd they're looking to attract.

I only get upset when I see that a place says ALL avatars welcome, family, kid, kids, teens, and the usual gigantic wall of keyword spam, then when I get there I have staff all over me before I can even rezz and they're telling me I need to put on a different avatar.

On the plus side, there is at least one sim I know of that is kids-only, and will kick you out and ban you if you're an adult. ^-^

I don't even bother trying to change anything about all of this, because I hang out in places that either are made for "my kind", or that welcome all avatars, or where I'm well-known enough that I'm accepted even if I'm not entirely on-topic. In those cases I do at least try to dress appropriately.

TL;DR: I wouldn't want to go anywhere I wasn't welcome, and there are a lot of places I wouldn't want to go either way.

Edited August 1, 2022 by PheebyKatz

[Ceka Cianci]

17 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

This is what most bothers me about child avatars.  I don't want to be a part of your RP.  If you're talking like a 2 year old in local chat, I'll ignore you.   I'm also not going to engage with someone in an animal avatar (not furry) who only talks in emotes as if they were an actual dog.  I don't RP.  It's fine if you do but don't expect everyone to want to participate in YOUR RP.  It's not how I use MY SL.  That said, I have no problem with people using whatever type of avatar they choose.  Engage with me?  Do so as an adult human.

Honestly, I have a hard time being in anyone's RP.. If I'm in a sim where it's expected, then yea, but if I'm at the beach and really just there to relax..

Them hard legs tend to throw RP at me now and again.. Sometimes if i'm really not in the mood I'll react, other times I won't answer

Hard leg: *Slowly tugs on the string to your top*

Ceka: Slowly pulls out her 9mm from her beach bag. You better move them digits slick before you lose them.

 

[Dragon Mommy]

15 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

This is what most bothers me about child avatars.  I don't want to be a part of your RP.  If you're talking like a 2 year old in local chat, I'll ignore you.   I'm also not going to engage with someone in an animal avatar (not furry) who only talks in emotes as if they were an actual dog.  I don't RP.  It's fine if you do but don't expect everyone to want to participate in YOUR RP.  It's not how I use MY SL.  That said, I have no problem with people using whatever type of avatar they choose.  Engage with me?  Do so as an adult human.

I find it difficult as well to interact with a lot of child roleplayers for a similar reason. Though I find there is a big difference between someone who is acting like a child and only speaking like a two year old would, and someone using emotes to convey the character they play is young but cleary written by an adult, and can respond normally out if character. The second one doesn't bug me, but it needs to be at the right place or time. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Dragon Mommy said:

I find it difficult as well to interact with a lot of child roleplayers for a similar reason. Though I find there is a big difference between someone who is acting like a child and only speaking like a two year old would, and someone using emotes to convey the character they play is young but cleary written by an adult, and can respond normally out if character. The second one doesn't bug me, but it needs to be at the right place or time. 

And then there was an old friend of mine who owned a "playground" parcel on the mainland. She "RPed" as a 6-year old . . . sort of.

A cigar-smoking, nuke-detonating 6 year old.

She was a hoot.

[Rowan Amore]

9 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Ceka: Slowly pulls out her 9mm from her beach bag. You better move them digits slick before you lose them.

Sounds like me!

 

[Ceka Cianci]

Really a lot of the child avatars that I have met, Which I'm not gonna say is a whole lot because it might be a couple hands full if anything.. But it's usually through IM's first.  Not knowing what they are until I look at their profile or see them.. I couldn't tell from the IM..

Some I've seen do that speak in general chat, but heck if I can remember if I was in an RP sim at the time or not.. hehehe

I just remembered, I turned 16 yesterday..  It's mah sweet sixteen!! \o/

That's probably why I can't remember too guud N stuffs..

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Ceka Cianci said:

I just remembered, I turned 16 yesterday..  It's mah sweet sixteen!! \o/

Hey! I turned 14 on Sunday! Yay us!!

/me looks up with wide eyes and lisps "Will you be my big thister . . . ?"

[PheebyKatz]

12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And then there was an old friend of mine who owned a "playground" parcel on the mainland. She "RPed" as a 6-year old . . . sort of.

A cigar-smoking, nuke-detonating 6 year old.

She was a hoot.

My character is secretly a serial killer. Behind that secret is another involving something far worse, which isn't even of this world. There's way more beneath the surface than most visitors ever get to find out, and even some of my closest friends don't know my whole backstory.

I'm also a black-market weapons dealer on the side.

You don't survive in (post-attrition) Innsmouth if you don't have a hustle and a thick skin and maybe a pistol.

Then to get away from it all I go to kid sims and wade through the lifeless mannequins standing around trying to get sugar daddies. Usually only takes me a few minutes to get bored and leave.

Edited August 1, 2022 by PheebyKatz

[Ceka Cianci]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Hey! I turned 14 on Sunday! Yay us!!

/me looks up with wide eyes and lisps "Will you be my big thister . . . ?"

But you're taller so you has tah be the bigger person.. hehehehe

ETA: Oh before i forget, Happy belated rez day ❤️

Edited August 1, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, PheebyKatz said:

My character is secretly a serial killer. Behind that secret is another involving something far worse, which isn't even of this world. There's way more beneath the surface than most visitors ever get to find out, and even some of my closest friends don't know my whole backstory.

I'm also a black-market weapons dealer on the side.

Now, see . . . if most kids were like you, I might have had a couple of them.

1 minute ago, PheebyKatz said:

Then to get away from it all I go to kid sims and wade through the lifeless mannequins standing around trying to get sugar daddies.

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

(And if anyone thinks I'm "kink-shaming," you are, in this instance, correct.)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

But you're taller so you has tah be the bigger person

Sure. But you're the one packing the heat.

And happy belated Rez Day to YOU! ❤️🥳

[Ceka Cianci]

4 minutes ago, PheebyKatz said:

My character is secretly a serial killer. Behind that secret is another involving something far worse, which isn't even of this world. There's way more beneath the surface than most visitors ever get to find out, and even some of my closest friends don't know my whole backstory.

I'm also a black-market weapons dealer on the side.

You don't survive in Innsmouth if you don't have a hustle and a thick skin and maybe a pistol.

Then to get away from it all I go to kid sims and wade through the lifeless mannequins standing around trying to get sugar daddies. Usually only takes me a few minutes to get bored and leave.

Wow , I bet you could whip Chucky's butt..

[PheebyKatz]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Now, see . . . if most kids were like you, I might have had a couple of them.

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

(And if anyone thinks I'm "kink-shaming," you are, in this instance, correct.)

I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with people expressing themselves and their fantasies with like-minded people, as long as nobody is being involved against their will. Besides, it's human nature to have fantasies that would make your grandma want to knock fire from your butt.

There are perfectly healthy, upstanding, responsible people who operate on all levels of society and have the most disturbing fantasy lives. The majority of them, thankfully, don't try to make their fantasies into reality.

That said, I wish laws were such that said persons had places to go and do all of that without jamming up the playgrounds.

I go to play on a slide or a swingset, and I can just FEEL them judging me, like there's something wrong with ME for wanting to play on a playground, instead of treating it like some pick-up spot.

 

And Ceka, yes. I could. Chucky is a punk.

Edited August 1, 2022 by PheebyKatz

[Da5id Weatherwax]

If you own and run a space on the grid, you make the rules for that space. Whether that's locking it down to only folks you have invited there or whatever arbitrary rules you choose. We all do that in our RL spaces, we "discriminate" on various criteria and we get to enforce that. We also get to take the consequences of what other people think of us for making those choices. It's the same in SL.

In SL I'm EITHER a human, an anthro feline or I'm a borg (with a holofield emitter so as the borg I can look like whatever I want, but I do "honour the RP" and revert to the borg av if I become aware of circumstances that would disrupt the holofield). If a scifi spot allows furries as "alien species" I'll wear the cat there, if not I'll conform to their rules. As a performer I'm usually the cat, but if I'm booked on a sim that prefers to have no furries I'll wear the human. Similarly, if I want to go dancing at certain venues I have to be human.

I expect folks to respect MY preferences in MY space, and if they don't I'll kick 'em out. By the same token, it's on me to respect THEIR preferences in THEIR spaces or expect the same treatment.

"Child" or "child-like" avatars are a particular hot potato in some places. To give you an example, a club where I was the security mgr. This was a furry club and adult-themed. Not that the "naughty stuff" was its primary focus, it's just that it was explicitly NOT disallowed. You didn't have to but you could dance naked there if you wanted and if your dance was suggestive as F nobody would object. If you wanted to hook up with another patron and get it on right there on the dancefloor we wouldnt boot you for that (just about never happened). We didn't disallow any avs apart from "those that appeared underage" Human, welcome. Demon, likewise. Furries or scalies of any species, fine. Megas, tinies, no problem. The only thing was you couldnt look like a kid or a juvenile of any other species. This was not because we disliked child-like avatars or believed they shouldnt be on the grid, it was because it was too much of a risk in that space, with that theme. This was not an appropriate venue for such avatars to be present. If you were wearing that kind of avatar allowing you in there not only put you potentially in the presence of inappropriate content it also risked getting our entire place shut down.

Even there we weren't stupidly strict about it. The rules I set for my security team were simple.

"If it looks underage to you ask 'em to change or leave. If you get complaints from a patron about it looking that way to them, ask 'em to change or leave unless you look at the av in question and decide it's so obviously a bogus complaint that it has to be a troll request. Either way, if you DO ask somebody to change or leave, and they don't, boot 'em. If they then gripe to management, I've got your back."

[Rowan Amore]

15 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

If you own and run a space on the grid, you make the rules for that space. Whether that's locking it down to only folks you have invited there or whatever arbitrary rules you choose. We all do that in our RL spaces, we "discriminate" on various criteria and we get to enforce that. We also get to take the consequences of what other people think of us for making those choices. It's the same in SL.

In SL I'm EITHER a human, an anthro feline or I'm a borg (with a holofield emitter so as the borg I can look like whatever I want, but I do "honour the RP" and revert to the borg av if I become aware of circumstances that would disrupt the holofield). If a scifi spot allows furries as "alien species" I'll wear the cat there, if not I'll conform to their rules. As a performer I'm usually the cat, but if I'm booked on a sim that prefers to have no furries I'll wear the human. Similarly, if I want to go dancing at certain venues I have to be human.

I expect folks to respect MY preferences in MY space, and if they don't I'll kick 'em out. By the same token, it's on me to respect THEIR preferences in THEIR spaces or expect the same treatment.

"Child" or "child-like" avatars are a particular hot potato in some places. To give you an example, a club where I was the security mgr. This was a furry club and adult-themed. Not that the "naughty stuff" was its primary focus, it's just that it was explicitly NOT disallowed. You didn't have to but you could dance naked there if you wanted and if your dance was suggestive as F nobody would object. If you wanted to hook up with another patron and get it on right there on the dancefloor we wouldnt boot you for that (just about never happened). We didn't disallow any avs apart from "those that appeared underage" Human, welcome. Demon, likewise. Furries or scalies of any species, fine. Megas, tinies, no problem. The only thing was you couldnt look like a kid or a juvenile of any other species. This was not because we disliked child-like avatars or believed they shouldnt be on the grid, it was because it was too much of a risk in that space, with that theme. This was not an appropriate venue for such avatars to be present. If you were wearing that kind of avatar allowing you in there not only put you potentially in the presence of inappropriate content it also risked getting our entire place shut down.

Even there we weren't stupidly strict about it. The rules I set for my security team were simple.

"If it looks underage to you ask 'em to change or leave. If you get complaints from a patron about it looking that way to them, ask 'em to change or leave unless you look at the av in question and decide it's so obviously a bogus complaint that it has to be a troll request. Either way, if you DO ask somebody to change or leave, and they don't, boot 'em. If they then gripe to management, I've got your back."

The problem now is who defines what looks underage.  There is where you run into the subjectivity of the entire debate.  What I think looks underage (under 18 which does include looking like a teen) and is it appropriate in the adult club.

There was a post in the Avatar section awhile back where a woman asked if her avatar looked underage.  To me, she looked less than 18.  To others, she looked fine.  

An obvious child ( 0-12 yrs) is usually easy to spot.  It's when the look is straddling that line between the two that makes it difficult and IMHO, done completely on purpose in some cases.   "But my profile SAYS all my avatars are over 18!" doesn't cut it for me.

[Luna Bliss]

31 minutes ago, PheebyKatz said:

I go to play on a slide or a swingset, and I can just FEEL them judging me, like there's something wrong with ME for wanting to play on a playground, instead of treating it like some pick-up spot.

I hear you, I'm waiting for the day when mentioning in RL that I earn money here doesn't cause an eye-brow to raise, along with a questioning of what kind of sex-work I do.

[Persephone Emerald]

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I hope its not as bad as those days.

I'd like to check it out to be sure, though.

Not sure what we could do if it is really bad for the child avatars and they have few places to explore. Maybe a child avatar could compile a list of kid-friendly places for their peers so they don't feel so penned in.

A Green Book for kid avatars!

[Da5id Weatherwax]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The problem now is who defines what looks underage.  There is where you run into the subjectivity of the entire debate.  What I think looks underage (under 18 which does include looking like a teen) and is it appropriate in the adult club.

There was a post in the Avatar section awhile back where a woman asked if her avatar looked underage.  To me, she looked less than 18.  To others, she looked fine.  

An obvious child ( 0-12 yrs) is usually easy to spot.  It's when the look is straddling that line between the two that makes it difficult and IMHO, done completely on purpose in some cases.   "But my profile SAYS all my avatars are over 18!" doesn't cut it for me.

I agree. That's why when instructing my security team I emphasised that it was always a "judgement call" - and that I'd back their judgement in any dispute. (even if I disagreed with it, they were on my crew so I'd support their right to make the call they did, even if I ended up apologising to somebody they'd kicked out or "discussing the matter" with them privately - I got to kick my crews backsides. Nobody else did, they all came around to kick mine and left my people to me.)

Security could make that call themselves if they believed it justified, if anyone else complained to them about a particular avs presence they were required to exercise that judgement and make the call on the spot. They weren't omniscient, sometimes they got it wrong. But they were always honest mistakes.

Somebody speaking "kidspeak" in local chat would be "regardo boot" even if their av sported an undeniably adult physique. Somebody judged "kid-like" in appearance by the security on duty would be asked to change. If later challenged I would explain to the aggrieved resident that it has to be the security guy on the spot who makes the call and they will usually do so in a way that causes least inconvenience to most people present. That it pretty much HAS to be that way and be that subjective. That it wasn't a ban or any kind of prohibition on returning, just that on that particular occasion that particular appearance and/or behaviour was presenting a problem and so it had to not be present any more.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

20 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The problem now is who defines what looks underage.  There is where you run into the subjectivity of the entire debate.  What I think looks underage (under 18 which does include looking like a teen) and is it appropriate in the adult club.

There was a post in the Avatar section awhile back where a woman asked if her avatar looked underage.  To me, she looked less than 18.  To others, she looked fine.  

An obvious child ( 0-12 yrs) is usually easy to spot.  It's when the look is straddling that line between the two that makes it difficult and IMHO, done completely on purpose in some cases.   "But my profile SAYS all my avatars are over 18!" doesn't cut it for me.

Interesting case on the MP the other day. It was an ad for a very revealing swimsuit, with a very high cut crotch that showed off most of the mons.

It was rigged for a flat chest, which in itself I don't have a problem with. But the avi wearing it in the ad was very clearly pre- or early pubescent -- say about 13 or so. And I don't think that was purely a subjective judgement.

We can't legislate people's fantasies. But we can do something about public images that not merely cater for a taste for minors, but effectively normalize it.

I never AR avatars who, in my judgement, look like teens but insist that they are 18+ -- it's too subjective. But this one crossed a line.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra
Typo

[kali Wylder]

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

But you're taller so you has tah be the bigger person.. hehehehe

ETA: Oh before i forget, Happy belated rez day ❤️

Happy July rez days!  I turned 13 on the 29th.

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Interesting case on the MP the other day. It was an ad for a very revealing swimsuit, with a very high cut crotch that showed off most of the mons.

It was rigged for a flat chest, which in itself I don't have a problem with. But the avi wearing it in the ad was very clearly pre- or early pubescent -- say about 13 or so. And I don't think that was purely a subjective judgement.

We can't legislate people's fantasies. But we can do something about public images that not merely cater for a taste for minors, but effectively normalize it.

I never AR avatars who, in my judgement, look like teens but insist that they are 18+ -- it's too subjective. But this one crossed a line.

There is often this one creator at Adult events.  Kinky to be specific.  I know I probably posted the vendor pic in the peeves section.  The avatar she uses in the pics is clearly, IMO, underage.  Add in the fact that on her MP pages, that same avatar is wearing braces.  Yes, adults can wear braces, too.  Baby face plus braces plus adult content?  Nope, not gonna fly with me.