Discrimination rules to be added to TOS?

[Coffee Pancake]

In all seriousness though ..

In going on 17 years here, I've seen lots of discrimination.

The usual blah blah blah .. incorrect avatar stuff of course, sometimes legitimate (like furrys in gor), but more often than not just the land owner, a person with power, or more usually a uppity loud mouth who doesn't like <insert avatar stereotype here>. Fursecution isn't a thing.

 

As for actual discrimination /// Oh hell yes. Tons of it. Racism and transphobia are the two main ones.

I've run support groups in SL for years and a common topic was people being ejected or excluded from places because they were out in their profile or known and someone outed them to get leverage. We're not talking about exclusively gendered or adult spaces either. It's easier to see a side when the argument is "there's a <slur> in my lesbian camp" vs "there's a <slur> at my line dance" but both are a thing that would come up. This does often spill over into ongoing persistent harassment.

Attitudes to gender presentation have been shifting for the better, especially with strengthening support from the wider community. It does seem more common for "there's a <slur> in my lesbian camp" to only come from "lesbian camps" populated entirely by straight men .. which amuses me no end on so many levels.

 

As for racism .. It's rare to see overt racism beyond flag waving (say, the kind that might raise to the level of an actionable abuse report), but the subtle undercurrent can be pervasive in some communities where it manifests as bias towards paleness, the adult community for one deserves to be called out for often explicitly treating race as a costume.

 

 

 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree in SL (which is to say, actual racism/sexism/transphobia toward the person behind the screen exists here just the same), most prominently in RP sims in my experience.

It's pretty dumb how OP is trying to compare their situation to that though.

[Seicher Rae]

@ Coffee and Wulfie:

You are correct. Full stop. RL hate happens in SL. Sometimes overtly, in which case it is easier to report (and contrary to the OP, that is against TOS as far as I know). I have seen some pretty awful profiles, and wonder how they can get away with it. On the other hand, I appreciate the honest "advertising" to let people know what a totally awful person they are.  Usually the RL hate happens more subtly than that, though (in SL).  There can be a fine line in "adult" between pushing a taboo and being a creepy, hateful person. (Speaking as one firmly in the "adult" sector, both lives.) 

I don't think I've been discriminated in SL when in any avatar. (And I've run the gamut.) But I'm also smart enough to pick my sims. I dont't seek out places just to be annoyed on purpose.  I'm also notoriously clueless, and so may have been hated on often, I'm just too dumb to have noticed.

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree in SL (which is to say, actual racism/sexism/transphobia toward the person behind the screen exists here just the same), most prominently in RP sims in my experience.

It's pretty dumb how OP is trying to compare their situation to that though.

I totally agree. The exclusion of a roleplaying character in a virtual world doesn't equate to racism/sexism/trans-gay phobia those in RL (and sometimes extended to SL) experience.

I do have some sympathy for those who play child avatars though. They seem to be one of the more excluded roleplaying characters in SL, and I like to see as much inclusion as possible (though I understand how characters need to be excluded when they don't fit a theme).

Many people find a joy in experiencing lost parts of their RL childhood through roleplaying child avatars, and even come to learn about themselves in a deeper way through such exploration.

I'm tempted to construct a child avatar and do some exploring -- I want to see if the exclusion of child avatars has truly reached the epic proportions some claim.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Love Zhaoying]

I guess if a child avatar came to my parcel, I can Rez the playground.

An actual playground.

Or the School Room.

Paradise Blanket modules, I did not choose modules - just bought the entire set years ago.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

I can't remember really running into it that much in SL.. Nowhere near as much as I would in RL that's for sure..

I think a big reason for that is because, before I go anywhere in a place I've never been before, I make it a point to read the rules of the land.

 

[Luna Bliss]

34 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I guess if a child avatar came to my parcel, I can Rez the playground.

An actual playground.

Or the School Room.

Paradise Blanket modules, I did not choose modules - just bought the entire set years ago.

 

That sounds nice. I get a lot of child avatars in my skybox section of the store who like to ride my flower to the sky and rez skyboxes.  However,  sometimes I do not appreciate messages asking if my cave would be "watertight" if placed under the water. Well, I admit I got a laugh, but might not if intensely busy.

[Luna Bliss]

11 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I can't remember really running into it that much in SL.. Nowhere near as much as I would in RL that's for sure..

I think a big reason for that is because, before I go anywhere in a place I've never been before, I make it a point to read the rules of the land.

 

Yeah, me too.

But what if the rules for the land in almost all of the regions said child avatars are not allowed, and you were a child avatar? Where could they go then? (some places, obviously, but their options for exploration would be severely limited).  I hope that's not the case, but I'd like to find out.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Ceka Cianci]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

Yeah, me too.

But what if the rules for the land in almost all of the regions said child avatars are not allowed, and you were a child avatar? Where could they go then?  I hope that's not the case, but I'd like to find out.

I guess we are fortunate that in this world we have the option to change what we are to adapt where ever we go.. We're not stuck in a body we ended up in..

If an avatar changes who you are, then might as well  hang in a more limiting one dimensional world where we are not as fortunate..

The great thing about SL is it gives people a chance to do that, that don't have that option in the real world. it's about imagination, not limits.

 

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yeah, me too.

But what if the rules for the land in almost all of the regions said child avatars are not allowed, and you were a child avatar? Where could they go then?  I hope that's not the case, but I'd like to find out.

I guess we are fortunate that in this world we have the option to change what we are to adapt where ever we go.. We're not stuck in a body we ended up in..

If an avatar changes who you are, then might as well  hang in a more limiting one dimensional world where we are not as fortunate..

The great thing about SL is it gives people a chance to do that, that don't have that option in the real world. it's about imagination, not limits.

Yes it is about imagination, and I think many child avatars want to recapture that imagination so easily accessible in childhood, and so roleplaying a child facilitates this dynamic for them.

While true that as a minority we can't expect the entire world to change for us, I would not want a minority to be too excluded by having very few places to exist.

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes it is about imagination, and I think many child avatars want to recapture that imagination so easily accessible in childhood, and so roleplaying a child facilitates this dynamic for them.

While true that as a minority we can't expect the entire world to change for us, I would not want a minority to be too excluded by having very few places to exist.

We are fortunate that this is not one of those worlds.. Sure there are a lot of places that don't allow them, but we have a lot that are still confused over the maturity ratings..

Many have more fear of breaking the rules than it is dislike of child  avatars.. I remember seeing the fear many had back when the maturity ratings came out..

That was a time when,  if you were using a child avatar, you would have thought you had the plague.. A lot just went by how tall you were as an indicator and many still do.. that's why every once in awhile you'll see those measuring sticks at the landing point or an auto kick because of height.

It's nowhere near as bad as those days ..

[Luna Bliss]

Just now, Ceka Cianci said:

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes it is about imagination, and I think many child avatars want to recapture that imagination so easily accessible in childhood, and so roleplaying a child facilitates this dynamic for them.

While true that as a minority we can't expect the entire world to change for us, I would not want a minority to be too excluded by having very few places to exist.

We are fortunate that this is not one of those worlds.. Sure there are a lot of places that don't allow them, but we have a lot that are still confused over the maturity ratings..

Many have more fear of breaking the rules than it is dislike of child  avatars.. I remember seeing the fear many had back when the maturity ratings came out..

That was a time when,  if you were using a child avatar, you would have thought you had the plague.. A lot just went by how tall you were as an indicator and many still do.. that's why every once in awhile you'll see those measuring sticks at the landing point or an auto kick because of height.

It's nowhere near as bad as those days ..

I hope its not as bad as those days.

I'd like to check it out to be sure, though.

Not sure what we could do if it is really bad for the child avatars and they have few places to explore. Maybe a child avatar could compile a list of kid-friendly places for their peers so they don't feel so penned in.

[Ceka Cianci]

13 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I hope its not as bad as those days.

I'd like to check it out to be sure, though.

Not sure what we could do if it is really bad for the child avatars and they have few places to explore. Maybe a child avatar could compile a list of kid-friendly places for their peers so they don't feel so penned in.

Let me put it this way, You would know if it was as bad as those days.. it was going on in all the forums, SL forums Xstreet forums, SLU plus all over in world people had something to say about it on a daily basis..

So many people trying to interpret the new standards but getting is so wrong.

I never heard the term Pedo being thrown around so much at people that were good decent people.. I wasn't on the popular side of that fight even though I didn't use a child avatar.

I remember studying those new standards and reading brown bag meeting transcripts and listening to the meetings like i was a lawyer getting ready for a big trial..lol

Ya, it's nowhere close to those days now.. hehehehe

 

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Let me put it this way, You would know if it was as bad as those days.. it was going on in all the forums, SL forums Xstreet forums, SLU plus all over in world people had something to say about it on a daily basis..

So many people trying to interpret the new standards but getting is so wrong.

I never heard the term Pedo being thrown around so much at people that were good decent people.. I wasn't on the popular side of that fight even though I didn't use a child avatar.

I remember studying those new standards and reading brown bag meeting transcripts and listening to the meetings like i was a lawyer getting ready for a big trial..lol

Ya, it's nowhere close to those days now.. hehehehe

 

 

I think it was all the Pedo clarification that caused the intense discussions though. Now that is cleared up to a degree. But that doesn't mean many child avatars are not being banned, but only that we don't hear about the issues as much due to the Pedo obsession of the day.

[Extrude Ragu]

13 hours ago, WinnieTheWerewolfPup said:

...immediately ban said person from events, public sims, and public stores...

I wonder if you really mean what you think you do when you make this statement. I've encountered a lot of residents in my time who think that because you are able to walk/teleport into a sim/parcel that it is 'public' - But the vast majority of (developed) land in SecondLife is privately owned by Residents, people like you and me. Especially things like shops as the majority of SL is user created.

13 hours ago, WinnieTheWerewolfPup said:

We all have our opinions but this is starting to get ridiculous that certain avatars cant go practically anywhere because people are "scared of them" or just simply dont like them.

So I mean lets put you in the store owners boots here - You've been building up your in-world store and lots of people visit and shop in it. You pay idk 1,000L$ every week to rent your shop floor. One day people start loitering in your shop in avatars that makes you and your customers uncomfortable, but you are not allowed to remove them. How do you think you would feel?

I guess the point I am trying to make is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. In an effort to include everybody you actually end up alienating a large amount of the population from the platform.

Listen that's not to say I'm trying to bring you down, it's just to say that I think that your approach to solving the problem you perceive will do more harm than good. In my opinion if you really wanted to help bridge gaps in the SL community and get people more comfortable around each other, the solution would be to focus on building new communities with the culture you want to foster at their heart, rather than try to force existing ones to change. Many users in SL will venture out of their comfort zones at least a few times a year and try new things, and they will often bring home their new understanding of the world with them.

[Ceka Cianci]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think it was all the Pedo clarification that caused the intense discussions though. Now that is cleared up to a degree. But that doesn't mean many child avatars are not being banned, but only that we don't hear about the issues as much due to the Pedo obsession of the day.

It was that there was a confusing set of rules that caused the discussion..

Remember the other day when you guys were confused about the forum rule changes? Intensify that by 11ty. Then focus that energy on child avatars and there you have it.

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

In my opinion if you really wanted to help bridge gaps in the SL community and get people more comfortable around each other, the solution would be to focus on building new communities with the culture you want to foster at their heart, rather than try to force existing ones to change.

Couldn't we do both?  Offer solutions to the child avatars who feel excluded that they can accomplish through their own effort and try to find ways to change the SL society so they are more inclusive of the minority populations when possible?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

It was that there was a confusing set of rules that caused the discussion..

Remember the other day when you guys were confused about the forum rule changes? Intensify that by 11ty. Then focus that energy on child avatars and there you have it.

Yeah. It was a classic case of moral panic precipitated in part by new ratings rules, and by lingering memories of the (very different) situation from a few years before. There was a whole lot of kink-shaming going on in general, and false equivalencies being thrown out. And it wasn't helped by some (in my view) poor choices, such as when one of the best-known advocates for kiddie avatars showing up at the opening ceremonies for Zindra -- using a child avatar. (Which, to be clear, was not a violation of the ToS, but was maybe not the smartest move.)

Most of the attacks on child avis were knee-jerk and ridiculously judgemental about the reasons people RP kids. At the same time, it's maybe important to recognize that there HAD been a time, quite recently, when the grid openly featured a lot of this stuff. I had a friend who did an exhibit on such practices -- but her work was documented through visits to parcels where this stuff was happening, through group descriptions and profiles and such. And, it was from a period before LL clamped down on it.

On the flip side, reports of violations involving minors were being weaponized. I had another friend whose account was suspended for 5 days after he was ARed for it. It was pure griefing, and his account was reinstated. But some of the chaos of that time still lingers, I think.

[Seicher Rae]

29 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I never heard the term Pedo being thrown around so much at people that were good decent people.. I wasn't on the popular side of that fight even though I didn't use a child avatar.

I remember studying those new standards and reading brown bag meeting transcripts and listening to the meetings like i was a lawyer getting ready for a big trial..lol

 

 

 

It was never a part of my SL (one of the few avatars I haven't put on is a child), but I get why people would (both good and bad if we want to get moralistic... oh let's!). But I have never understood why people automatically went to "Pedo" when a child avi showed up anywhere. "Not on adult sims doing adult things" is no different than the G, PG, R, X ratings on movies and you don't see people going ape-doo-doo over that. (Do we? I suppose someone somewhere is...) That's not "discrimination."  We people do like to complicate things. I laughed at your brown bag/lawyer reference, because... yup.

[Luna Bliss]

Maybe LL should have one of their upcoming community pages be devoted to kids stuff as a way to separate innocent kid-stuff fun from the past Pedo fiasco.

Big heads, playgrounds, meeting places. It would encompass the innocence we see displayed at Meta and other game venues.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

You're in a role play sim that is dedicated to ancient Rome. You will be "discriminated" against if you show up in a space suit.

1920s Berlin is maybe the most prominent example. I understand (Jo Yardley once corrected me on this) that you won't be banned or ejected if you are not conforming to the general avatar preferences (a realistically sized human avatar), but it is obviously frowned upon.

In that context it does make sense to ask for some conformity to region rules. If I occasionally get annoyed by places that arbitrarily set rules against certain kinds of avatar, or by those who essentially force their RP on you, I am equally judgy about people who are quite alright with deliberately or through laziness screwing up other people's immersive experiences.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Seicher Rae]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

If I occasionally get annoyed by places that arbitrarily set rules against certain kinds of avatar, or those who essentially force their RP on you, I am equally judgy about people who are quite alright with deliberately or through laziness screwing up other people's immersive experiences.

Yup. Well said. My dumber version would be: Read the room.

[Ceka Cianci]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yeah. It was a classic case of moral panic precipitated in part by new ratings rules, and by lingering memories of the (very different) situation from a few years before. There was a whole lot of kink-shaming going on in general, and false equivalencies being thrown out. And it wasn't helped by some (in my view) poor choices, such as when one of the best-known advocates for kiddie avatars showing up at the opening ceremonies for Zindra -- using a child avatar. (Which, to be clear, was not a violation of the ToS, but was maybe not the smartest move.)

Most of the attacks on child avis were knee-jerk and ridiculously judgemental about the reasons people RP kids. At the same time, it's maybe important to recognize that there HAD been a time, quite recently, when the grid openly featured a lot of this stuff. I had a friend who did an exhibit on such practices -- but her work was documented through visits to parcels where this stuff was happening, through group descriptions and profiles and such. And, it was from a period before LL clamped down on it.

On the flip side, reports of violations involving minors were being weaponized. I had another friend whose account was suspended for 5 days after he was ARed for it. It was pure griefing, and his account was reinstated. But some of the chaos of that time still lingers, I think.

Omg, remember how much the RA forums and inworld were crossed over in almost real time?  I was juggling three forums at a time back then LOL

Xstreet was like getting my butt handed to me every day..  Major AR groups like there was a bounty on them or something..

A lot of people rated their lands as adult  just to be on the safe side..

Names were getting slammed and shamed left and right.. Nobody was moderating the forums back then..  It was really chaotic.

If there ever was a time to show the definition of ignorance and hate in SL, it was then.. You had many acting out of fear of the rules, but then you had the ones that seemed like they jumped on the wagon because it was an opportunity to be major asshats and not hold back anything ..

LL saying , it's not about the teen grid and the teen grid is not going to be shut down.. Then like a year later maybe even less  the teen grid  goes down and  things went down that road and people really got scared.. Now there are for sure kids on the grid, time to really freakazoid out..

If the word pedo was a bullet, you would have thought machine guns were firing off.

There was a few really bad stretches.. We're in a much better place today I think.

 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

There was a few really bad stretches.. We're in a much better place today I think.

 

Yes, thank God. There was also a lot of virtual-signalling going on -- Look at me, I'm protecting children!! -- which has mostly been replaced with a calmer, more nuanced understanding.

Still see some of that inworld though, occasionally.

[Rowan Amore]

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

those who essentially force their RP on you,

This is what most bothers me about child avatars.  I don't want to be a part of your RP.  If you're talking like a 2 year old in local chat, I'll ignore you.   I'm also not going to engage with someone in an animal avatar (not furry) who only talks in emotes as if they were an actual dog.  I don't RP.  It's fine if you do but don't expect everyone to want to participate in YOUR RP.  It's not how I use MY SL.  That said, I have no problem with people using whatever type of avatar they choose.  Engage with me?  Do so as an adult human.