Third party Viewer Phönix/Firestorm

[embe Binder]

I´m here since really long  time and every one knows, thats normaly SL life ist  btw 1/3 taller then normal life. So good so far. Since a while i realize that  avas  and in combination, racks, furniture doesent fit  for normal sizes and let me feel like  a giraffe, means  general measures are messed up and corrupted.   At least i realized  the solution for it,  the Firestormviewer. I use since a while the catznipviewer and thats while i realized this issue by changing and fixing some on my shapemeasures. My shape is 1,77m tall , thats not really much for SL sizes  so on tiptoes and heels  often close up to 2 m witch is absolutely correct by counting. So Shapesize is measured as reallife if u are 1,77 u ARE 1,77 no matter if and how high ur heels are. But the fail is, Firestorm counts the complete size in shape with heels. So my Size is 1,77 in shape of cantznip dressed and correct..in Firestorm it is 1,97m so  if a simple Ava, and girls almost on tiptoes..so u normaly lift u up  more then 15 cm.. ur shapesize is 15 cm taller. So if u oriented in ur normal life and think u set ur size close to normal life btw me like 1,77 and u are on tiptoes at this moment and u save..u are regulair  15 cm smaller then the size uset so only 1,62 on flat feet. Thats why allmost new  furnitures and poses are corrupted for  standardsizes while most creators use Firestorm and doesn`t realize the bug. Just at least i checked and tested wit SL viewer and vindicates my statement , that Firestormviewer has a megabug inside.

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

I agree, the avatar height in Firestorm and all new viewers have always given a false reading. The only 100% accurate ways to get the exact height you want are:

1. With a v1 based viewer.  Download either official Singularity Viewer or Cool VL Viewer to edit height accurately with them. These v1 viewers are based off the original Linden Lab v1 viewer and still use the original accurate avatar height calculator.  Be certain to edit your avatar height while not wearing a shoe base.

2. Prim Height method. Rez out a prim cube on solid ground. Stretch the prim vertically up to the exact height that you wish to be. Then rez a second prim cube on top of the first prim, then stretch out the second prim horizontally (to make a "T" or an inverted "L") to create a physical height limiter. Take off any worn shoe bases. Stand your avatar beside the prim and edit your avatar height to the same vertical prim height. If you can't physically walk your avatar under the second horizontal prim, then you are too tall. Likewise, if you can freely walk under the horizontal prim without resistance, you're too short.

I've used both methods for many years. And not by coincidence, the v1 Viewer method always gives the exact same accurate avatar height as the Prim Height method.

Edited July 7, 2022 by SarahKB7 Koskinen

[Ansariel Hiller]

That is interesting, because when LL first came up with the height calculation, it was off by 19.5cm. Apparently it got corrected at some point (bento maybe???). Gonna confirm and fix for next release if necessary - no need to run a viewer that hasn't seen a release in a year...

[Henri Beauchamp]

13 minutes ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

Download the official Singularity Viewer and edit your height with it. Singularity is based off the original Linden Lab v1 viewers and still uses it's superior avatar editor and height calculator.

Since Singularity is no more maintained and outdated, I'd rather recommend using the Cool VL Viewer (yep, that's a shameless plug) which also got an improved avatar editor (over what it was in v1 viewers and what it is in Singularity), with also precise avatar size (including pelvis to feet measure, which is important for animations Z offset calculations, and shoes height).

[embe Binder]

1 hour ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

I agree, the avatar height in Firestorm and all new viewers have always given a false reading. The only 100% accurate ways to get the exact height you want are:

 

It` s not the problem to verify mit highness, highness is totaly  correct i`m sure Lindens own Viewer ( i tested  as verifiy measure) sets the measurepoint for the Grid and its exactly same as my Viewer (Catznip). Shape is 1,77 m and if i add tiptoehighness and  heels i go up to  around 2m thats absolutely ok and logic. In same configuration Firestorm say`d my shapesize is 1,97 and thats not correct. i`m still 1,77m. So if a creator uses firestorm and configures shape of his testava to a size may 1,80 m. on tiptoes ava is regulair  only 1,65m  tall  thats why all ppl in Grid shrinks and most of creations i use with this  configuration bug, standing in floor or hovering on my partner.  btw.that`s not the problem and i use hoverleveling for correction, but gridsizes will be completely corrupted  in time  and lot of confusing. I see really lot of Ava`s  with highness to 1,50    and i look with my regulairsize like  a giant beside..

[Ansariel Hiller]

30 minutes ago, embe Binder said:

[...] but gridsizes will be completely corrupted  in time  and lot of confusing. I see really lot of Ava`s  with highness to 1,50    and i look with my regulairsize like  a giant beside..

Being 15 years in SL, you should know that avatar height in SL is relative and a lot of shape "creators" create giants nevertheless, seeing those 2.2m+ giants regularly showing up at events - which can't be caused by Firestorm if it calculates the size too small. 😉

In the end it boils down to creating a proportional correct shape anyway - having a correct height display in the viewer won't prevent stilt-legs, t-rex / orangutan arms or shrunken heads... 😁 And as I said: Once confirmed that the fix for LL's original flawed height calculation is obsolete and now actually results in a wrong height calculation, it will be removed to match LL's calculation.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Ansariel Hiller

[Rowan Amore]

Just wondering why it matters.  

[Beq Janus]

I'm struggling to work out what people are actually measuring here. 

I have tried the following measurements, and my results do not appear to correspond with what is being said. Perhaps I am measuring incorrectly?

Please post photos, similar to mine showing the prim height, the avatar etc.

1) the measurement in metres reported by the viewer appearance floater
2) the height reported by a height detection script
3) the height as measured by a prim

The results are as follows:-

viewer	appearance	script	prim comparison
FS	1.88m	1.63m	1.86m
LL	1.63m	1.63m	1.85m

For Firestorm I have this image showing the numbers 

The LL viewer does not easily allow you to have both the shape and the build floater open at the same time so I can't get a single snap shot
however we can take it at face value that the LL viewer parrots the incorrectly reported server side height

However, a visual alignment shows that the avatar remains at ~1.86m (the small discrepancy being on account of the pose as the FS avatar is stood upright.)

In both cases it is very clear that the reported height from lsl and the appearance menu is nonsense.

What I think is confusing people here though is the difference between the physics height that the region understands and the visible height that you actually see. The physics height is based on a capsule that is scaled on the server and does not correlate to the visual avatar (either as ruth or wearing a mesh body/head).

Ultimately you need to decide which measurement you are looking for the "max headroom" approach that says "this is the minimum height of a door way I can walk through without physics blocking me" or the visual approach "this is the height that people see me as relative to known scaled objects."

 

[embe Binder]

8 hours ago, Beq Janus said:

I'm struggling to work out what people are actually measuring here. 

I have tried the following measurements, and my results do not appear to correspond with what is being said. Perhaps I am measuring incorrectly?

Please post photos, similar to mine showing the prim height, the avatar etc.

1) the measurement in metres reported by the viewer appearance floter
2) the height reported by a height detection script
3) the height as measured by a prim

The results are as follows:-

viewer	appearance	script	prim comparison
FS	1.88m	1.63m	1.86m
LL	1.63m	1.63m	1.85m

For Firestorm I have this image showing the numbers 

The LL viewer does not easily allow you to have both the shape and the build floater open at the same time so I can't get a single snap shot
however we can take it at face value that the LL viewer parrots the incorrectly reported server side height

However, a visual alignment shows that the avatar remains at ~1.86m (the small discrepancy being on account of the pose as the FS avatar is stood upright.)

In both cases it is very clear that the reported height from lsl and the appearance menu is nonsense.

What I think is confusing people here though is the difference between the physics height that the region understands and the visible height that you actually see. The physics height is based on a capsule that is scaled on the server and does not correlate to the visual avatar (either as ruth or wearing a mesh body/head).

Ultimately you need to decide which measurement you are looking for the "max headroom" approach that says "this is the minimum height of a door way I can walk through without physics blocking me" or the visual approach "this is the height that people see me as relative to known scaled objects."

 

Yes, that`s it.  Linden Own Viewer also third Party Viewer "Catznip" measures the same size in Shapesettings.  If i set  1,77.in shapesize i àm  (like rl, no matters if i stay on flat feet or tiptoes or wearing Heels) 1,77m tall.  Not so Firestorm if i set my  tallness in Linden/Catznipviewer to 1,77 m  and change to Firestormviewer u`ll see ((if u are on tiptoes  and/or Heels)  shapezise is 1,97 m tall . So if ppl orientates to her rl size..,   set her shapezize/tallness in Firestorm to.. especially. 1,70m... so they are  for  Secondlife (and other viewers) only 1,50 m less.  So if a creator  configure his animations and poses..highness with firestomviewer   so it is for standard Sl viewer and all others with correct mesuring corrupted  and Avas stay in grond or hovering against theri partners and  the for  avas  will be  more less  and less.

Edited July 8, 2022 by embe Binder

[Henri Beauchamp]

Avatars actual size (the one that equals to a primitive with the same size, as Beq showed up) has always been an issue in SL... One of my oldest scripted items is the ”True Height Detector & Comparator” (created in early 2007, as a response to all the bogus height comparators that went in use at that time, due to the new ”no age-play” policy: it always annoyed me to no end when people pointed to my avatar saying he was too small, when he has actually always been 1.77m tall, which also happens to be one of the two characteristics (with the gender) it shares with me, the adult RL person behind ”him”)...

The problem is that the LSL function to get the avatar height is not measuring the actual height but instead the distance between the avatar feet and the center (or, to be accurate, the joint position) of its head... To correct the number returned by llGetAgentSize(), you need to add 0.17m (17cm). This is an empiric value I got by averaging the delta I measured between the returned size and the actual (prim-equivalent) size of many shapes (and all the common shapes that existed back in 2007, of course).

This is however, not counting shoes height (which you must subtract from llGetAgentSize() if you want to get your shoe-less avatar height), and not counting either the Hover visual parameter that got added when server bakes were implemented (*)...

This is why, in the Cool VL Viewer, I implemented three measurements in the ”Appearance” floater: the actual (shoe-less, hover-less) avatar size, the shoes height, and the ”pelvis to foot” (**) distance (which accounts for the shoes height). The Hover parameter is never taken into account in those measurements (like it is not by llGetAgentSize()).

As for correcting automatically the animations height to level them with the floor whatever your avatar shape, you can use the @adjustheight RLV command I created for this purpose...

Of course, all of the above does not account for prim-based avatars or mesh avatars that deform joints (e.g. tiny and giant avatars)...

----------------------------------------

(*) Because of a misunderstanding from Oz, who did not get that what was needed was a way to correct the avatar Z offset in real time, without changing the shape, in order to properly level with the ground the kneeling, crawling, laying or sitting on ground animations, when your avatar pelvis to feet distance is different from the one used by the animation designer. Later on, an ”AvatarHoverHeightEnabled” simulator feature got added, that allowed to restore what was possible with viewer-side bakes and the AgentSetAppearance message that got removed with server bakes.

(**) I will change that name for ”pelvis to soles” for next release, since it will be even clearer and more accurate.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Henri Beauchamp

[Ansariel Hiller]

5 hours ago, embe Binder said:

Yes, that`s it.  Linden Own Viewer also third Party Viewer "Catznip" measures the same size in Shapesettings.  If i set  1,77.in shapesize i àm  (like rl, no matters if i stay on flat feet or tiptoes or wearing Heels) 1,77m tall.  Not so Firestorm if i set my  tallness in Linden/Catznipviewer to 1,77 m  and change to Firestormviewer u`ll see ((if u are on tiptoes  and/or Heels)  shapezise is 1,97 m tall . So if ppl orientates to her rl size..,   set her shapezize/tallness in Firestorm to.. especially. 1,70m... so they are  for  Secondlife (and other viewers) only 1,50 m less.  So if a creator  configure his animations and poses..highness with firestomviewer   so it is for standard Sl viewer and all others with correct mesuring corrupted  and Avas stay in grond or hovering against theri partners and  the for  avas  will be  more less  and less.

You already said that in the original post, but failed to provide photos Beq asked for, showing where the size of your avatar reported in Firestorm differs from the size of a prim matching your avatar height.

I tested various shapes myself now and compared the size reported in Firestorm with the size of a prim matching the avatar sizes and they pretty much match. In contrast, the size reported in the official viewer is way off compared to the size of the prim.

2 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

This is why, in the Cool VL Viewer, I implemented three measurements in the ”Appearance” floater: the actual (shoe-less, hover-less) avatar size, the shoes height, and the ”pelvis to foot” (**) distance (which accounts for the shoes height). The Hover parameter is never taken into account in those measurements (like it is not by llGetAgentSize()).

Of course I tested Cool VL as well and if I take the size reported for shoe height into account as well, the reported height pretty much matches the height reported in Firestorm - guess you'll also have a "megabug" in your viewer as well, Henri - according to the OP. 😉

[Henri Beauchamp]

3 hours ago, Ansariel Hiller said:

Of course I tested Cool VL as well and if I take the size reported for shoe height into account as well, the reported height pretty much matches the height reported in Firestorm

Well, the reason why I split the avatar height (which is not affected by the shoes) and the shoes height is precisely because the sum is pretty meaningless (and confusing to many people) when you design an avatar... Feel free to borrow my idea and do the same in Firestorm !

[embe Binder]

On 7/8/2022 at 3:44 PM, Ansariel Hiller said:

You already said that in the original post, but failed to provide photos Beq asked for, showing where the size of your avatar reported in Firestorm differs from the size of a prim matching your avatar height.

I tested various shapes myself now and compared the size reported in Firestorm with the size of a prim matching the avatar sizes and they pretty much match. In contrast, the size reported in the official viewer is way off compared to the size of the prim.

Of course I tested Cool VL as well and if I take the size reported for shoe height into account as well, the reported height pretty much matches the height reported in Firestorm - guess you'll also have a "megabug" in your viewer as well, Henri - according to the OP. 😉

 

On 7/8/2022 at 3:44 PM, Ansariel Hiller said:

You already said that in the original post, but failed to provide photos Beq asked for, showing where the size of your avatar reported in Firestorm differs from the size of a prim matching your avatar height.

I tested various shapes myself now and compared the size reported in Firestorm with the size of a prim matching the avatar sizes and they pretty much match. In contrast, the size reported in the official viewer is way off compared to the size of the prim.

Of course I tested Cool VL as well and if I take the size reported for shoe height into account as well, the reported height pretty much matches the height reported in Firestorm - guess you'll also have a "megabug" in your viewer as well, Henri - according to the OP. 😉

Seems  u tested but  not listening me.  U simple tell me, that Lindens own Second lifeviewer does not work well, great  stratement. Simple  listen and check it out by yourselt with LINDEN VIEWER  may u understand then.  Set ur  Shapesize   as u like.  save it.. u can wear Heels Tiptoes, whatever u want, shapesize should be still the same.I Do it simple that everbdy hopefully  check it out now what i try to say .Check out   scrreenshot. Same time, same place,samme clothing not changing anything... LINDEN Viewer Shapesize= 1,77m ,  Catznip..shapesize = 1,77m, Firestorm = Shapesize 1,97 m...Proof of evidence enough?? btw u can check it out by yourself too if u don`t trust me. Firestorm has a megabug in his viewer.

Edited July 10, 2022 by embe Binder

[Rowan Amore]

In Firestorm, take off your foot height adjuster and see what the height says.  I don't know about you but in RL, when I put on heels, I'm taller!

Without tippy toe shoe base...

WITH tippy toe shoe base...

[embe Binder]

19 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

In Firestorm, take off your foot height adjuster and see what the height says.  I don't know about you but in RL, when I put on heels, I'm taller!

Without tippy toe shoe base...

WITH tippy toe shoe base...

U ar not taller in RL really. If u have a iD card u have to give ur real  size for it. no matters wich heels or shoes u wear. If anyone ask you in Rl  how tall u are, do u first check out wich heels u wear  or simple tell them ur real measure ?! Shapesize is ur size  for ur ava..no matters if u wear heels, tiptoes or flatfeet..thats ur size..Firestorm adds it  and  u are less  round about 15-20 cm of ur  normal   size. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by embe Binder

[Rowan Amore]

26 minutes ago, embe Binder said:

U ar not taller in RL really. If u have a iD card u have to give ur real  size for it. no matters wich heels or shoes u wear. If anyone ask you in Rl  how tall u are, do u first check out wich heels u wear  or simple tell them ur real measure ?! Shapesize is ur size  for ur ava..no matters if u wear heels, tiptoes or flatfeet..thats ur size..Firestorm adds it  and  u are less  round about 15-20 cm of ur  normal   size. 

You missed the point completely.  Take off your shoebase.  How tall does Firestorm show?  Same as Linden viewer?   IN SL, using the Firestorm viewer, you WILL BE taller with a shoebase on.  It actually seems MORE accurate to me.

And again...what does it matter?   

ETA:  Bit the bullet and tried the LL viewer which behaves the same with shoebases so that's not the issue.  

Edited July 10, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

And again...what does it matter?   

The more I've read the thread, it seemed perhaps "the difference between viewers" is what mattered. 

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

The more I've read the thread, it seemed perhaps "the difference between viewers" is what mattered. 

Yes, I just muddled through the SL viewer to see the difference and to be honest, even if the numbers are different from Firestorm, your height is still the same regardless.  If I'm at the height I prefer in one viewer, it's the same in the other viewer.  If you want to be 5'5" then set it to that.  If the other viewer shows you at 5'7", who cares.  It's sort of a non-issue IMHO.

The shoebase does effect height in both viewers.  I didn't test to see if it effected it exactly the same in both.  I just can't tolerate trying to use that viewer so I didn't bother.

Is it a bug, is it a feature, is it no big deal?  You decide.  

[Rowan Amore]

Just did a little test in Firestorm viewer...

And in the official LL viewer...

 

So, it would seem it's the LL viewer that is off? 

 

 

[embe Binder]

11 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Just did a little test in Firestorm viewer...

And in the official LL viewer...

 

So, it would seem it's the LL viewer that is off? 

 

 

it makes no sense to discuss  if you not realize the  problem of btw.  u already  see it in ur own screenshots.. thats not only between  Lindenviewer and Firestorm, also Catznip measures  the same as Linden`s:  Read my last post again...i didn`t change anything  as i take the screenshots..two of three Viewers say Firestorm is wrong especially Lindens own viewer. Thats the fact  accept or not, doesn`t intrest me. I showed u, i proved it.. it`s ur turn . Btw. it`s not ur problem..it`s problem for all with normal viewers  and my intens was it , hope that one of the Scripters of firestorm fixes that problem .  Take care  eof

[Rowan Amore]

Um...okie dokie 🤔🙄

[Rowan Amore]

35 minutes ago, embe Binder said:

Scripters of firestorm Linden Lab's fixes that problem

FIFY

[Solar Legion]

OP: That's nice.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Solar Legion

[MoiraKathleen]

To the OP:  The only accurate way to measure the height of your avatar, that I am aware of, is to create a prim that extends from the bottom of your flat feet to the top of your head, and then use the edit tools to see how tall the prim is.   I think you will find that the height shown by Firestorm's appearance editor will be closest to the prim height.  As explained in several of the posts above, the formula used in LL's viewer to determine height in the appearance editor is not measuring how you would expect it to measure (it's not measuring from sole of feet to top of head).   So if you really want to make sure that your avatar is a specific height, then create a prim of that height and adjust your shape until your body is the same height as the prim. 

As far as size of furniture, houses, and so forth, or how animations are set up, I would imagine that most creators use their own avatars for determining the scale, or use what they think will fit the majority of their customer base.  There is no "standard" height in SL.   I doubt that the fact that one viewer's appearance editor reports one height and a different viewer reports a different height for the same avatar shape is going to have any affect on the scale/size a creator chooses to use in their building.  

I think animations are even more problematic, because I imagine that they depend not just on overall height, but on other shape factors - length of legs, arms, shoulder width, and other  similar shape settings which are all customizable by the individiual avatar.

I would suggest that you find creators that create items that are closest to what you would expect for your size and use the 'adjust' feature that most items that you can sit on today have, to adjust the sit position for your avatar.   Same with poses/dances/other animations - search out the ones that work best for your own shape. 

 

[Ansariel Hiller]

6 hours ago, embe Binder said:

Seems  u tested but  not listening me.  U simple tell me, that Lindens own Second lifeviewer does not work well, great  stratement. Simple  listen and check it out by yourselt with LINDEN VIEWER  may u understand then.  Set ur  Shapesize   as u like.  save it.. u can wear Heels Tiptoes, whatever u want, shapesize should be still the same.I Do it simple that everbdy hopefully  check it out now what i try to say .Check out   scrreenshot. Same time, same place,samme clothing not changing anything... LINDEN Viewer Shapesize= 1,77m ,  Catznip..shapesize = 1,77m, Firestorm = Shapesize 1,97 m...Proof of evidence enough?? btw u can check it out by yourself too if u don`t trust me. Firestorm has a megabug in his viewer.

First: "U" is not a word, but a vowel. If you mean "you", you should write it - thank you!

Second: The only one not listening are apparently you. Multiple times you have been asked to measure your avatar size via a prim and check the prim's size in the edit window. And then compare what is reported in Firestorm and the Linden Lab viewer. Don't want to do it? Well, can't help you then!

Third: If you think that showing the actual, correct avatar size related to prim sizes is wrong and a "megabug", but showing a size that doesn't match the size of a prim defined with the size as reported, then... well... guess can't help you either. But I can guarantee you the "megabug" will be in the next Firestorm release as well. And that's it from me about this topic. 😁