Tim Sweeney, (Epic/Fortnite), on the metaverse.

[animats]

Tim Sweeney interview transcript. "After all the hype about the metaverse, it was good to talk to someone who’s actually built one."

• "Later this year, we’re going to release the Unreal Editor for Fortnite–the full capabilities that you’ve seen [in Unreal Engine] opened up so that anybody can build very high-quality game content and code . . . and deploy it into Fortnite without having to do a deal with us–it’s open to everybody."
• "We don’t want a dozen companies to fight each other to create the one monopoly that rules them all, and one wins and now everybody is locked into their proprietary thing. We want to work with all of the companies to help build one open system that arises over the next decade. Every year, we want more of it. It’s not going to magically appear all at once, because it’s monstrously complicated. Every year, we want to get closer and closer to this connected ideal, where every company can participate."

• Those standards and protocols you mentioned are what made the internet what it is. But that was a long time ago. Do we have the will to go through that process again and create standards and protocols for the metaverse?

  "Epic does. We’re doing more and more of this all the time. I think Roblox is also another really good-spirited company. You know, after IPO-ing and facing enormous investor expectations, they took their scripting language that powers all of Roblox and they released it, permissively licensed, open source, so any game developer can decide to use that. It’s quite an incredible move toward openness."

• "But, unfortunately right now (cryptocurrencies are) bundled up with a lot of speculation and a lot of outright scams, and a lot of efforts are scammy by construction in that the thing they’re pursuing doesn’t achieve a plausible version of the stated goals."

Worth a read by management-level Lindens.

 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

or ya know, make it work with the oldest of the virtual worlds SL.  instead of trying to reinvent the wheel,  I'm not stepping foot onto their foot print and have zero invested in anything they ever make,  I'll stick with LL.

[Randall Ahren]

Fortnite is a lot of fun. I spend way more hours playing that, than in SL. When it's late, and I want to be bored into a coma so I can get some sleep, I play SL.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

2 minutes ago, Randall Ahren said:

Fortnite is a lot of fun. I spend way more hours playing that, than in SL. When it's late, and I want to be bored into a coma so I can get some sleep, I play SL.

then why are you using SL?

[Codex Alpha]

6 hours ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

then why are you using SL?

To be fair, he did state why he is using SL  "When it's late, and I want to be bored into a coma so I can get some sleep". That's a good thing that SL can be used by many people with different goals, and benefits them in some way

[Paulsian]

the unreal editor is not a pleasure to use, if they overhauled their editor the process might be kewl. Im loving ylands on ipad its very fast and fun to dabble around in as guest.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Maybe I'm just a weirdo, but I can't see how Fortnite, SL, Ylands, or Roblox are anything alike. 😂 Outside of the "we can build stuff!" portion, anyway.

Should also just toss in Valheim, Craftopia, Trove, Stardew Valley, Portal Knights, Satisfactory, Rust, Conan Exiles, and Ark while we're at it!

Yes I'm just being silly. I'm pre-coffee, lemme alone 😄

[Bree Giffen]

These are great articles you bring up @animats I like that Sweeney is looking for a group solution. It makes room for SL.

[Codex Alpha]

56 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

These are great articles you bring up @animats I like that Sweeney is looking for a group solution. It makes room for SL.

Except there will be no compatibility with SL, since every other platform is using PBR and avatar rigging systems that just won't match up. The idea is to be able to visit different metaverses that at least are standardized, use common rigs, common asset types and common PBR like textures.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

Yet you have some saying Yuckerberg invented the metaverse when it existed for sometime with SL and some of the other platforms mentioned.  I remember recently showing SL on a TV in my bar and someone said "Wow, look at Yuckerberg's Meta!" We told them he was seeing SL and it existed 2 decades before what's his name thought of it. And he was late in the game. The dood had the deer in the headlight look!

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Yet you have some saying Yuckerberg invented the metaverse when it existed for sometime with SL and some of the other platforms mentioned.  I remember recently showing SL on a TV in my bar and someone said "Wow, look at Yuckerberg's Meta!" We told them he was seeing SL and it existed 2 decades before what's his name thought of it. And he was late in the game. The dood had the deer in the headlight look!

Second Life is not the metaverse and any suggestion that it is means you do not understand the definition of the metaverse. Calling Second Life the metaverse is akin to saying google is the internet. It is a singular aspect of a metaverse just like google is a singular aspect of the internet. The metaVERSE is like the uniVERSE where multiple worlds exist and are connected within that VERSE.

As it stands, Second Life is a virtual world with the potential to BECOME the metaverse due to it also being a creation platform however to do so, would mean massive changes in not only Second Life's coding but also LL's vision which quite frankly they dont seem to have anymore.

Second Life has always been and still is a closed and very limited platform that goes against what the metaverse that Epic, Facebook, Microsoft etc are defining the metaverse as. The metaverse is a combination of multiple virtual worlds within itself connected not necessarily on one server cluster. This is why, as animats has posted in his summary in the OP, Sweeny states "connected ideal, where every company can participate". What they are proposing at the moment is a limited system as like Sweeny Stated of metaverse, "it’s monstrously complicated" so will take time.

If Mark Kingdon the ex CEO of LL, over a decade ago, managed to get his vision of companies being able to host their own unique part of second life and still have it all connected as one whole connected 'streamable' platform (aka a METAVERSE) then SL could claim being the first. Unfortunately, no one believed in his vision (and also technical limitations vs budget) and therefore LL stopped that vision of which was their last, in my opinion, great idea that could have had the same impact on the digital trends that Second Life's release had in 2003.

I have mentioned this a few years ago in one of my posts as part of an ideas thread of what Second Life should become and how it could become better long before facebook or epic were looking into the metaverse. It feel on deaf ears though with the usual negative nancy's that dwell around here saying that no one will ever want that.

The premise of what was said in my years old post was basically exactly what Sweeny said "connected ideal, where every company can participate". For example where a business can create their own virtual world within the second life creation platform that allows for transferability of both avatar, inventory and cash through all worlds within that metaverse no matter where they are hosted. For example, you can have a business meeting in a virtual office with suit and tie and then teleport to another virtual area where you can play WoW created by Blizzard within Second Life and the avatar automatically changes etc.

Now, can Second Life be a singular platform of multiple large scale and small scale spaces like what Epic et all are suggesting today as the metaverse? Of course and it is the closest thing we have at the moment. However, Second Lifes limitations in not only scalability, code, editability and inworld creation, not to mention is lack of VR and AR support which is also tied to the Metaverse (as defined now) means that it is A LOT of work to become that, of which would take to much time and effort for a staff of 200 of which only 20 or so are actual developers.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Drayke Newall

[animats]

2 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

Except there will be no compatibility with SL, since every other platform is using PBR and avatar rigging systems that just won't match up. The idea is to be able to visit different metaverses that at least are standardized, use common rigs, common asset types and common PBR like textures.

Technically, converting existing SL assets to PBR isn't that difficult. I've done it, as I've shown elsewhere. There are discussions at Creator User Group about accepting content uploads in GLTF format. It's not that conversion is hard. It's that there are still some SL users with hardware and software too old to support it.  Windows 7 with the final service pack is probably the minimum required.

Avatars are a tougher problem. I've mentioned Roblox's efforts at automatically fitting clothing before. Here's something new in that area - MetaTailor. I don't know if this is any good, but they have the right basic idea. Marvelous Designer + body shape creator + clothing library -> game-ready avatar. Other systems are catching up to SL in clothing, and passing it in ease of use.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Second Life is not the metaverse and any suggestion that it is means you do not understand the definition of the metaverse. Calling Second Life the metaverse is akin to saying google is the internet. It is a singular aspect of a metaverse just like google is a singular aspect of the internet. The metaVERSE is like the uniVERSE where multiple worlds exist and are connected within that VERSE.

 

I did not say SL was a metaverse.  The dood in my bar did and he thought it was and Yuckerberg invented it. The term has been around a decade even before SL ever existed.

If you look at the Wikipedia article for the metaverse, the first picture on top shows a scene from SL in 2003.  And one of the paragraphs says this "Components of metaverse technology have already been developed within online video games.^[14] The 2003 virtual world platform Second Life is often described as the first metaverse,^[15][16] as it incorporated many aspects of social media into a persistent three-dimensional world with the user represented as an avatar, however historical claims of metaverse development started soon after the term was coined."

[Love Zhaoying]

5 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Maybe I'm just a weirdo

I love weirdos!

 

[Drayke Newall]

4 hours ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

I did not say SL was a metaverse.  The dood in my bar did and he thought it was and Yuckerberg invented it. The term has been around a decade even before SL ever existed.

I stand corrected then, the public doesn't know what the metaverse is then.

4 hours ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

If you look at the Wikipedia article for the metaverse, the first picture on top shows a scene from SL in 2003.  And one of the paragraphs says this "Components of metaverse technology have already been developed within online video games.^[14] The 2003 virtual world platform Second Life is often described as the first metaverse,^[15][16] as it incorporated many aspects of social media into a persistent three-dimensional world with the user represented as an avatar, however historical claims of metaverse development started soon after the term was coined."

Ah yes, Wikipedia. There is a reason why Wikipedia isn't allowed as a source for university papers and that is because it is in most cases wrong. Those two newspaper articles that whichever Wikipedia editor used as a source say no such thing. The first article makes no mention of Second Life being a metaverse, simply Rosedale saying he hoped Second Life would become the Metaverse (snowcrash) which it never did. The article even concludes: "What happens after that will determine whether Rosedale winds up becoming a tech trivia question, or the builder of the Metaverse."

Take note also that snowcrash which was the first definition (and what is used today as the definition) of the metaverse defines the metaverse as needing VR headsets to be a metaverse as that is what snowcrash was all about. A VR successor to the internet.

The second 'source' equally does not show that it is the metaverse. Simply, that being what Second Life users and the journalist incorrectly describe it as. It even states: "Second Life, then, is much like Roblox - a place where users build environments and invite others to play - although it has far fewer participants". Even a link from the BBC on that very article defining the metaverse does not define second life as anything like it, stating even that it is only an idea at the moment: "But because it's still just an idea...".

The wiki editor even doesn't know what the metaverse is who seems to believe it has something to do with having an avatar and social media aspects of which, any game has had since 2000 if not earlier. I mean, come on, the wiki article even says that World of Warcraft is part of the metaverse just because some esports guy said "playing a game and going on raids with friends is the metaverse". Such a suggestion would imply any game with the ability to create or use an avatar and play with friends while chatting with them is the metaverse.

[StarlanderGoods]

Its not the first time that Fortnite tries to become a content platform, or metaverse, but they restricted those options to companies that dealt directly with their management, it was a one way relation.  I could go on for a while about Fortnite, but Dan is just better at it.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

I don't know why all these platforms opt for the colorful concert stage environment. Giving me those Tiësto vibes. 😂 He's got a good point about Fortnite emotes being limited, though, unless you've opened your wallet.

That said, I'm not sure if you guys saw what Fortnite did in 2021 with the Ariana Grande Rift Tour Event (which is a LOT more impressive than whatever that static stage thing was that they did before). 

I don't know if I'd call this a metaversy-type event or what, but it was actually pretty interesting and looked like a lot of fun. The first 5 minutes is a fully interactive event with a few short activities you can participate in that ends with a big multiplayer boss fight. At around 5 minutes in, it becomes Ariana's show where you can still move around freely for the most part, but it's a more guided audio/visual experience and you're pushed along to follow her as it goes. At one point, you can change your perspective and position in the performance area by running through portals. It's pretty amazing, really. I did not experience it live, though. I knew the servers were going to be a nightmare, so I just watched the event on Twitch when it first launched.

 

[animats]

Oh, that's helpful. Now I get it. Those experiences were constructed for Fortnite in Unreal Editor. Now, Epic is making the tool set for that more available. It's still Unreal Editor, which is not something the average user is going to use. But it's something an indy game developer can use, and Fortnite gives them a distribution mechanism. Kind of like Roblox, but for a somewhat older crowd.

[Codex Alpha]

It's the same when Valve opened up the Half Life and HL2 and TFC and CS modding capability to all of us, then we used the game engine to do all sorts of things. Creating new games from them, deathmatch levels, challenge levels, adventures, co-op levels. We designed custom maps for clan/guild practice and events, made our own style of nightclubs and city environments, etc which extended the base game from maybe a 1-3 year run to 10+ years - and it's still going.

Fortnite wouldn't be what I would think a platform for that, but they do have millions of players, and they're probably thinking they can mix the standard gameplay into a hang out place that some of us might even do in a Counterstrike game level. Custom maps, worlds and events can be created anywhere the Game developer allows through modding tools, so why not.

Shoot someone in the back of the head, then go dance in the nightclub lol. It's not new

[Ayashe Ninetails]

5 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Fortnite wouldn't be what I would think a platform for that, but they do have millions of players, and they're probably thinking they can mix the standard gameplay into a hang out place that some of us might even do in a Counterstrike game level. Custom maps, worlds and events can be created anywhere the Game developer allows through modding tools, so why not.

Shoot someone in the back of the head, then go dance in the nightclub lol. It's not new

Fornite really does seem like an odd choice to me for this kind of thing. BUT, I say that as someone who regularly watches competitive Fornite tournaments and has only ever personally played the battle royale version. I always, always, always forget a whole separate PvE game exists within it. In fact, hell, I always forget Fortnite Creative is a thing, too. I always just associate it with the E-sports world.

[Codex Alpha]

1 hour ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Fornite really does seem like an odd choice to me for this kind of thing. BUT, I say that as someone who regularly watches competitive Fornite tournaments and has only ever personally played the battle royale version. I always, always, always forget a whole separate PvE game exists within it. In fact, hell, I always forget Fortnite Creative is a thing, too. I always just associate it with the E-sports world.

It would seem so, but as my examples dictated, we used the game engine for building and practice and fun events anyway. Just because people had guns didn't mean there weren't servers that were dedicated to co-op only, or no-guns, or dance hall, etc. If someone misbehaved they get banned. It actually happens  a lot in almost any game allowing customized levels by players.

They're just going to do it on Fortnite, or have a live DJ event on Fortnite, even if unrelated to gaming, because there are millions there. Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr they can waste their time on a platform with <ahem> 20 people. I hate Fortnite as a game, but I think it's pretty amazing what it can do, and how it can plug into an event at any moment, in the middle of gameplay

Travis Scott and Fortnite Present: Astronomical (Full Event Video)

^ Cant make this smaller lol cuz I cut and paste

Fortnite: 'Millions attend' virtual Marshmello concert

Gaming is huge, and gamers are huge. To ignore gamers, interaction and cool worlds in a virtual platform is death.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Ayashe Ninetails]

11 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

It would seem so, but as my examples dictated, we used the game engine for building and practice and fun events anyway. Just because people had guns didn't mean there weren't servers that were dedicated to co-op only, or no-guns, or dance hall, etc. If someone misbehaved they get banned. It actually happens  a lot in almost any game allowing customized levels by players.

They're just going to do it on Fortnite, or have a live DJ event on Fortnite, even if unrelated to gaming, because there are millions there. Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr they can waste their time on a platform with <ahem> 20 people. I hate Fortnite as a game, but I think it's pretty amazing what it can do, and how it can plug into an event at any moment, in the middle of gameplay

Travis Scott and Fortnite Present: Astronomical (Full Event Video)

^ Cant make this smaller lol cuz I cut and paste

Fortnite: 'Millions attend' virtual Marshmello concert

Gaming is huge, and gamers are huge. To ignore gamers, interaction and cool worlds in a virtual platform is death.

Oh yeahhhh, I forgot Travis Scott had an event in there, too. I still need to watch that one.

And yeah I totally agree - Fortnite's userbase is freaking huge. The hype surrounding the competitive side kind of died down a little bit with some of the bigger players and streamers dipping out to try other games, but Fortnite does have a way of bringing people right back (Zero Build mode seems crazy popular and I know a lot of people returned for it).

They definitely do know how to put on a show, too. Can't say I've seen those kinds of audio/visual experiences in any other game I've played.

[StarlanderGoods]

On 5/16/2022 at 3:04 PM, Codex Alpha said:

It's the same when Valve opened up the Half Life and HL2 and TFC and CS modding capability to all of us, then we used the game engine to do all sorts of things. Creating new games from them, deathmatch levels, challenge levels, adventures, co-op levels. We designed custom maps for clan/guild practice and events, made our own style of nightclubs and city environments, etc which extended the base game from maybe a 1-3 year run to 10+ years - and it's still going.

Fortnite wouldn't be what I would think a platform for that, but they do have millions of players, and they're probably thinking they can mix the standard gameplay into a hang out place that some of us might even do in a Counterstrike game level. Custom maps, worlds and events can be created anywhere the Game developer allows through modding tools, so why not.

Shoot someone in the back of the head, then go dance in the nightclub lol. It's not new

They cant give it the same freedom that Valve gave TF and HL2, because they operate in different systems of monetization, once you bought the basic game from Valve, that was it, that is all they asked of you. If you mod the game and keep people interested, it´s just more people playing and more chances of more people buying the game.

Fortnite works on a different system, you most likely wont be able to create all kinds of content like in TF, because that would be a huge loss for Fortnite, in terms of monetization, I dont think they will risk giving froobs ilimited content under the table, decreasing the incentives to buy stuff from their store.

[Drayke Newall]

28 minutes ago, StarlanderGoods said:

They cant give it the same freedom that Valve gave TF and HL2, because they operate in different systems of monetization, once you bought the basic game from Valve, that was it, that is all they asked of you. If you mod the game and keep people interested, it´s just more people playing and more chances of more people buying the game.

Fortnite works on a different system, you most likely wont be able to create all kinds of content like in TF, because that would be a huge loss for Fortnite, in terms of monetization, I dont think they will risk giving froobs ilimited content under the table, decreasing the incentives to buy stuff from their store.

From your statement here you have shown that firstly you dont know what Epic are doing and also dont know anything about Fortnite.

Firstly, Fortnite already has user created worlds (islands) where users can freely create their own games, social islands, etc using Fortnite assets. The restriction to this is however is, Fortnite assets are used and you have to comply with Epics Fortnite rules. This is called Fortnite Creative Mode and half of Fortnite playtime is within these user created islands currently. To play said user created islands, a person doesn't need to spend a dime or pay Epic anything.

Epic only make money with Fortnite through microtransactions (avatar/weapon skins and a battlepass for their game). Players however dont have to buy anything.

Secondly, what Epic are proposing by releasing the full unreal Fortnite editor is to allow other companies and others to create their own game using their own assets without any need to comply to Epic's Fortnite creative rules within the Fortnite universe. In essence they are creating a second Roblox but with demographic that is not majority 13 and under. Whilst 61% of Roblox demographic is under 13 years of age, 67% of Fortnite's player age is 18-24.

Thirdly, Epic are talking about a central avatar system where a person can create one avatar and then use that avatar anywhere else. From Sweeny: "I support the idea of universal ownership–the idea that if you were to buy an avatar in one place that you’d own it in every other place where it’s conceptually compatible".

To put it another way. Think of Fortnite as a content creation platform like Second Life where Fortnite 'Islands' are like Second Life regions and the Fortnite game is like Linden Realms, in the same platform but separated. Epic is allowing people to basically do what you can do in Second Life. THAT is why LL are worried enough to hire a CMO for the first time in its near 20 year history.

[Manja Snowflake]

I also watched Travis Scott at the time, as well as Fortnite Party Royale shortly after. Fortnite Party Royale was also quite cool with the island that was somewhat built like a fairground on which you could make different mini-games 

video unfortunately in german

and then later at the stage with music from different artists