Would mainland conditions be improved if residents could donate land to Governor Linden for public facilities?

[Jennifer Boyle]

One of the issues that makes much mainland less desirable than it could be is lack of public roads and waterways. Residents cannot effectively address this because there is no guarantee that any resident-owned land will stay the same. It could be addressed by allowing residents to donate land for public roads and waterways. This is similar to what happens in RL, where a developer buys undeveloped land, builds roads, and sometimes waterways, and donates the roads to the local municipality, making them irrevocably public. Like RL developers, SL developers might be incentivized to build public facilities because it would increase the value of the adjacent land.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

I'm pretty sure that LL owns plenty of land already. It's just sitting around empty. 

[Jennifer Boyle]

1 hour ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

I'm pretty sure that LL owns plenty of land already. It's just sitting around empty. 

Yes, they do. But that doesn't get roads built on all the mainland sims that would be more desirable if they had them.

[Mollymews]

in RL when a person does gift their property to the council, the council is under no obligation to accept the gift, or on accepting the gift keep it in perpetuity and maintain it at the council's expense

where I live (in RL) there is a mix of public and private owned roads.  The private road owner(s) maintains the property as a road and pays rates/taxes to the council. The council may also acquire land for public roading under Eminent Domain, upon which the council will be the owner.  A resident can't compel the council to take ownership of the land (exercise Eminent Domain) on which the resident wants the council to make a road, as the landowner can make and maintain  their own road and pay rates to the council

is a similar situation in SL.  Just because we might want a road open to the public across/next to our property doesn't mean we can have Linden (the council) do this for us thru gifting or otherwise. Linden like the council, allows us tho to build our own road open to the public and pay the tiers/rates

Edited March 15, 2022 by Mollymews
( )

[Jennifer Boyle]

10 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

Just because we might want a road open to the public across/next to our property doesn't mean we can have the council do this for us thru gifting or otherwise. Linden like the council, allows us tho to build our own road open to the public and pay the tiers/rates

I'm unsure about the details of the legal process, but where I live, developers buy undeveloped tracts adjacent to the city, develop a plan, file a map called a plat that shows lot boundaries, streets and utility easements, with the city, and get it approved. There are standards that must be met. The developers build the streets, which are then owned by the city, and they either sell the lots or build houses on them and then sell them. What induces the deveopers to build streets and give them to the city is that it greatly increases the value of the remaining land. What induces the city to accept them is that the city gains population and taxable property.

[Mollymews]

1 minute ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

What induces the deveopers to build streets and give them to the city is that it greatly increases the value of the remaining land. What induces the city to accept them is that the city gains population and taxable property.

in these large subdivision situations in my RL, councils can get into these arrangements also. Councils do this also because they don't have to pay the cost of building the infrastructure, which includes not only roads but also the utilities infrastructure, power, water, wastewater, internet, etc

also the subdivision developer has to be able to show that there will be an increase in revenue for the council, they have be able to show the council that X number of sections have been sold (consent conditional) off the plans before consent to go ahead is given.  Build it and they will come doesn't always work out

 

[BJoyful]

4 hours ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

One of the issues that makes much mainland less desirable than it could be is lack of public roads and waterways. Residents cannot effectively address this because there is no guarantee that any resident-owned land will stay the same. It could be addressed by allowing residents to donate land for public roads and waterways. This is similar to what happens in RL, where a developer buys undeveloped land, builds roads, and sometimes waterways, and donates the roads to the local municipality, making them irrevocably public. Like RL developers, SL developers might be incentivized to build public facilities because it would increase the value of the adjacent land.

Personally, I’ve seen Mainland looking better and better since Bellisseria opened in April 2019.  I’d guess that in part the reason for that is that Bellisseria set a nice example of orderliness and beautiful landscaping.  Such a great area with beautiful water for sailing and boating attracted a lot of long time Residents to come out of their hidey-holes and see what they could do with 351 LI and the results were WOW!  For non-talented Residents like me that was a huge bonus… being so close to people who knew how to make amazing builds that looked like they they were just waiting for House Beautiful and Better Homes and Gardens to take photos for their decorating magazines certainly upped my game and inspired me to actually set down furniture in the Houseboat we grabbed hust for sailing access.  My first wander around the beautiful roads I saw in InWorld Films video I spotted a celebrity… Buttacwup Pwincess  from YouTube, whose videos were my beginners Go To for How To do so many things I wanted to learn.  Then WOW 😮 I could actually see @Sylvia Tamalyn’s Houseboat, not far from ours!  I knew that name from reading her advice in Forums… this Bellisseria place was like visiting Lifestyles of the Rich & Famous or one of those Hollywood Homes of the Stars Tours!  Within a couple of weeks I spotted my first Mole!!  It was Dyna Mole, making a Rez Zone by a lighthouse at the Southern end of Belli’s original Traditionals and Houseboats.  I didn’t even think Moles were still hired in SL even though we’d long admired their handiwork (Doc’s idol is Ancient Mole) while exploring Mainland.

I think that a lot of inspiration has made a wonderful impact on Mainland looking better and better as Bellisserians outgrow their 351 LI but really love the roads, paths and adventures of Mainland and they seek something like that on ordinary Mainland.  I completely understand your concern that Resident or Group owned Land and it’s attempted infrastructure can be fleeting and feel a lot riskier than having a bit of Protected Land beside your home.  I think your idea is wonderful and perhaps even possible if it’s presented to the LDPW for their review and a Feature Request is made.  They would probably suggest filing a JIRA Feature Request with your plan outlined in as much detail as possible.  Mainland has  a bit of a hodgepodge of bits of land which were subdivided and ended up surrounded by Abandoned Land… right in the midst of a really logical stretch of land perfect for a Roadway!  I don’t think LL will ever bulldoze anyones home to make way for a road and waiting for an entire strip of Region Edge to be Abandoned at the same time is like herding cats… which are herding chickens! (Probably not going to happen in my lifetime).

BUT… if we do it ourselves… gather a few Friends with similar interests to form a Land Group and donate some tier to it to cover the nicest area you can find, preferably close to something already existing which has a theme you can blend with your own ideas… and make a road… or a designated area you’d like to be a Road and present your proposal to the LDPW (to Patch,  Derrick, Whitney, Guy, Izzy - any of these Lindens will help direct you to the right place or person for a review or advice).  There are very knowledgeable Groups like Drivers of SL whose members may be able to help you with your Proposal for a JIRA feature request.  If one gets approved…it will make it easier for the next… and the next after and so on!

Remember that the people who work for Linden Lab want to provide infrastructure and activities we enjoy to do in SL.  The better we make it… the better it will be at attracting more new Residents to enjoy Exploring SL!  SL is created by Users (us, the Residents) and LL provides the platform for our enjoyment.  Our ideas and suggestions are very important and the more we can do… like making a sound and practical proposal that will promote more adventure and exploration will not be ignored.  It will be considered and perhaps compromises will need to be made but certainly the more clearly we lay out a model or a plan, and the more Support from others you can recruit to add their support or suggestions or ideas… the more likely it will be to get Accepted! 🤩👏

Best of luck and feel free to IM me anytime inworld or message me in Forum and I’ll help in any way I can because I love SL! 

Edited March 15, 2022 by BJoyful
Spelling grammar fails

[BJoyful]

@Klytyna What is funny in the OP’s question/suggestion?  
I’m sorry I don’t understand and I wonder if I missed something because I love a good laugh and a good sense of humour 😆 but I just can’t figure out what you find funny.

[Mollymews]

3 minutes ago, BJoyful said:

@Klytyna What is funny in the OP’s question/suggestion?  
I’m sorry I don’t understand and I wonder if I missed something because I love a good laugh and a good sense of humour 😆 but I just can’t figure out what you find funny.

Klytyna uses the laugh button to mean disagree with the argument/thought/idea expressed. As there is no Disagree button to press, and Sad or Confused button doesn't convey disagreement. When Klytyna does agree then will press the Like button, and sometimes Thanks button

and there is a thing. When press the Laugh button then it counts as a reputation point. So even tho Klytyna may disagree, in signalling this they also give a reputation point

Klytyna has disagreed with quite a few of my posts, and has liked and thanked quite a few also. Agree/Disagree, is all good as far as I am concerned

 

[BJoyful]

@Mollymews  Thank you so much for explaining!  I thought I was losin’ it (my mind) ! ❤️

[Mollymews]

just want to say that  I don't mean to put a downer on the thoughts of Jennifer or Joy.  In my thought processes I tend to work thru the obstacles to begin with, and then start to think about how the obstacles could be overcome

in another thread Patch Linden as VP of Product Operations,  said that Linden is always open to working with residents on things that would help grow resident participation.  That Linden would look at any plan that gives them Linden some confidence that growth would result

in this case, is similar to a RL property developer having to show to the RL council, that growth in occupancy would occur before consent is granted to a development

suppose this was done. Suppose a resident group, did draw up a detailed development plan for a dormant area of existing mainland, which would include some new Linden owned public pathways

Linden might go for this, as there would be a plan for an agreed quantified development before the residents went ahead

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Mollymews
new

[BJoyful]

@Mollymews is hereby nominated for the Occam’s Razor Award of Distinction and I smile REALLY REALLY big and break my Alt key all over agin making too many ❤️💕❤️💕❤️💕❤️ Emoji hearts 🥰 

[Raspberry Crystal]

11 hours ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

One of the issues that makes much mainland less desirable than it could be is lack of public roads and waterways. Residents cannot effectively address this because there is no guarantee that any resident-owned land will stay the same. It could be addressed by allowing residents to donate land for public roads and waterways. This is similar to what happens in RL, where a developer buys undeveloped land, builds roads, and sometimes waterways, and donates the roads to the local municipality, making them irrevocably public. Like RL developers, SL developers might be incentivized to build public facilities because it would increase the value of the adjacent land.

It would be really interesting to see an example of this kind of project documented.

I do agree that the lack of infrastructure, along with oddly sized and distributed parcels is a huge disincentive for purchasing abandoned land.
Unfortunately  it only takes one person using an area as a personal sandbox in which they abandon their half-finished, badly textured and generally hideous constructions to blight the landscape for some distance. This seems to happen more frequently in 'low rent' areas with a lot of abandoned land and adds to the downward spiral of lack of demand.

Having an area which does look cared for seems to influence the surroundings plots as well. This feels like real life urban re-generation, where investment in one area encourages more development and investment, which in SL means emotional and time investment also.
Taking on this type of project as a group with an established track record would tend to discourage Land 'flippers' and property speculators from setting up such a scheme as an exploit.

With regard to adding the laugh emoticon as a simple way of disagreeing with a post, I'm afraid this is not how this comes across to me. It appears lacking in respect and dismissive, especially when seen on a series of posts where no further explanation for the reaction is provided.  @Mollymews has obviously seen more context and may well be correct in her assumption, but there is a real danger that most people won't understand it in this way.

[BJoyful]

2 hours ago, Raspberry Crystal said:

With regard to adding the laugh emoticon as a simple way of disagreeing with a post, I'm afraid this is not how this comes across to me.

Further to this, I notice that YouTube (Google) has removed the 'thumbs down' icon.  Perhaps we witness the most sincere form of flattery from the cats (the REAL owners) of YouTube... imitation.  If you can't ♥ and you can't offer any constructive communications using any or many of the plethora of Emojis available for our use by clicking the ☺ icon located here...

 

...then perhaps someone knows how to make a new emoji that truly expresses the correct intention ♥♥♥  <--- means I love you unconditionally ♥♥♥

Edited March 15, 2022 by BJoyful
copied image instead of scary looking link ;D ♥

[Soull Starlight]

I like this idea, but also believe in the power of community. There has been a renaissance of new energy on mainland that has produced some of the most beautiful, 'blink and you'd forget you're on mainland' builds that I've ever seen. On rides around the public roads and airways, I am always in awe at the creativity expressed amid 'weird builds', that exist concurrently in a way that's uniquely SL. 

I'd throw another idea into the mix- what if groups like Heterocera Citizens, Corsica South Coasters, and the Second Life Forestry Service (all resident-run communities within mainland) could be allotted an amount of abandoned land in their covered areas to preserve the mainland? In this way, folks who are already interested in mainland preservation (I'm a member of MANY such communities, as I own mainland across almost all continents) can continue to build public spaces for the benefit of mainland, just as our beautiful moles do. This would inspire creativity, cooperation, and a shared sense of ownership and preservation across the continents that may further inspire the renaissance happening. 

What do you think? 

[CalypsoJewel]

I'm not sure that donating LI for a "facelift" cause to a region would really help all that much.. some areas of the Mainland are stuck in a time warp(they are paying for premium to have a build 10+ years old?). They can spruce up areas to some degree, but if somebody's build clashes well.. what was it for? Meanwhile as stated, some players have come together to make their areas quite pretty. Even some of the roadway flora is really nice in some areas, but that can be quickly overlooked by a full bright monstrosity.

I think in the end it will be down to the community to make the mainland a better looking place.

[Coffee Pancake]

The only time LL will do new work on old mainland is when the business side signs off on it and tasks moles to get to work.

If you want to beatify some mainland and add roads and all the rest, you're on your own and paying LL tier just like everyone else.

[BJoyful]

I think LL doesn’t need land donated per say, as they already are in care of all that Abandoned Land.  Anyone who pays anything to LL is paying for that Abandoned Land in some way as it must be kept online because it is attached to the rest  contiguous Mainland.  If a landowner makes a road and pays tier for it to be open to the public… that is more like donating because the tier fee is the long term running cost of keeping that land online and that’s much more costly than just paying some L$ for land.

However, if we buy the land from Governor Linden and turn it into manageable parcels which each have access to a Road which connects to a Protected road, I do think LL would seriously consider making your homemade road a Protected road as that would be more likely to keep those parcels from being Abandoned again because they would be more attractive to buyers and sellers.

I also think it’s important to make your homemade road as practical as possible so the LDPW will have something to work with. if you file a JIRA request you may need to ask others to support your request so it should have broad appeal and provide access to all parcels and be open ended so it can be added to as the community grows in more and more Abandoned Land.  I really like the way Bellisseria leaves space between parcels and I think most people do also so that will be something important to consider also… who will pay for any land between parcels and will it be landscaped or Abandoned.

Any amount of land which remains consistently paid for by Residents tier will be a cost that’s no longer absorbed by LL and that will eventually be reflected in lower tier rates, so Lets Do This!  Revitalize and develop some Abandoned Land and the whole of Mainland will be more valuable and attractive to Residents.  Mainland is the largest contiguous virtual land mass in the known universe and it is unique among all virtual platforms.  It’s SO BIG and no one can own it all… make a piece of it your own. 🏠 🥰

Edited March 25, 2022 by BJoyful
Missed an important word! no* one can own it all..

[BJoyful]

6 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The only time LL will do new work on old mainland is when the business side signs off on it and tasks moles to get to work.

If you want to beatify some mainland and add roads and all the rest, you're on your own and paying LL tier just like everyone else.

There has been recent successfully JIRAs which were accepted which asked for connecting roads to be placed on Abandoned Land.  I don’t think asking for infrastructure which will improve the land value and reduce the amount of tier cost LL must absorb is over-stretching the realm of possibility. 🐿

[Feorie Frimon]

2 hours ago, BJoyful said:

 

Any amount of land which remains consistently paid for by Residents tier will be a cost that’s no longer absorbed by LL and that will eventually be reflected in lower tier rates, so Lets Do This!  Revitalize and develop some Abandoned Land and the whole of Mainland will be more valuable and attractive to Residents.  Mainland is the largest contiguous virtual land mass in the known universe and it is unique among all virtual platforms.  It’s SO BIG and one can own it all… make a piece of it your own. 🏠 🥰

❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

I’d put 4 million hearts if I could. This is my heart right here.  That is EXACTLY what I’m thinking too. 

BUT JOY - how do you decide where to invest???? I’m having to pick between two regions to really ‘invest’ in one area, and it’s like picking between two favorite children or something. 😭

Edited March 25, 2022 by Feorie Frimon

[Coffee Pancake]

3 hours ago, BJoyful said:

There has been recent successfully JIRAs which were accepted which asked for connecting roads to be placed on Abandoned Land.  I don’t think asking for infrastructure which will improve the land value and reduce the amount of tier cost LL must absorb is over-stretching the realm of possibility. 🐿

Accepted and actioned are entirely different propositions.

[BJoyful]

1 hour ago, Feorie Frimon said:

BUT JOY - how do you decide where to invest????

I start with a nice parcel which is at least 1x Protected on one of it's borders.  This makes a great visual and virtual 'entrance' to put a road and a Welcome area.  Look at the Region from overhead and take a screenshot.  Make a Legend and plot out the already Owned parcels and any other features of interest.  Everything you plot must be in measures of 4m increments as 4x4 meters is the smallest size block of area which can be divided or 'Selected' within the Edit Terrain Window.  Now you can lay out test parcels and roads on your screenshot.  In areas where the terrain is not flat it can be more of a challenge to make parcels which suit the limited terraforming of most Mainland +4/-4 from original but this often brings out some astonishing creativity in how to use a steep slope or an odd hill in an interesting way. 

Start with something you can comfortably manage to fund until it is sold.  Take advantage of the 10% Group Land bonus and try to design something which can use 10% of the land area for infrastructure (roads or a community park for example).  Look at RL maps of subdivision plans for ideas like having a cul-de-sac in the center with parcels surrounding it like petals on a flower.  If you see a nice parcel of Abandoned Land in the middle of nowhere with no connection to anything  you might make a Cul-de-sac plan with a 10% center of community space and the possibility of expansion to connect it in future with another in the future and apply via JIRA feature request for a Protected road.  Cul-de-sac and dead ends should be clearly marked at their entrance so 'tourists' will be able to choose their route successfully without the need to drive through anyone's yard or house 😉.  If you can stay in the 10% public to 90% private ratio... the improved area will be relatively easy to sell as a small Group Land community development or subdivision.  If you want something bigger, stacks of Sky homes can be rented and pay tier for the parcel they are stacked on so a nice ground level park or shopping area for small storefronts with stacks of rental Skyhomes above can earn income for the landowner which can be used to pay Land Fees (tier) to LL by using the Sell L$ to your US Dollar account, which is always used first to pay LL for anything like Land Fee tier or Premium Membership fees.  Any balance will be charged to your payment method on file.

When it comes to selling or renting what you have created, start with a Google Search for something like "How can I find Land to Buy in Second Life?" and see what pops up in the search results.... is it a well-tagged Marketplace ad, or an SL Community Forum post, or a website offering land for sale in Second Life, or on a social media site... and copy those results and always look for ways to improve and interconnect them.  Many people just drive around and look at Map for land with a L$ tag on it... so maybe you can use that method combined with others you found in your internet Search.

I hope that helps!  IM me here or inworld anytime with questions and Enjoy SL ♥

[Jennifer Boyle]

12 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The only time LL will do new work on old mainland is when the business side signs off on it and tasks moles to get to work.

If you want to beatify some mainland and add roads and all the rest, you're on your own and paying LL tier just like everyone else.

The main issue isn't paying LL tier for the land the road occupies. It is that other residents cannot be assured that a resident-owned road will remain open to the public or even continue to exist and, therefore, they will and should be reluctant to invest in improvements that depend on its existence for their value.

[Feorie Frimon]

1 hour ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

The main issue isn't paying LL tier for the land the road occupies. It is that other residents cannot be assured that a resident-owned road will remain open to the public or even continue to exist and, therefore, they will and should be reluctant to invest in improvements that depend on its existence for their value.

I think what Joy is saying is the residents do the work - then submit a JIRA (or something like it?) for LL to take the road and ‘make it official’. 

I actually don’t hate that idea! 

I wonder if anyone has been successful with this in the past? It’s like…. Volunteer Moles or something…. Intriguing. 

[Soull Starlight]

I really love that idea BJoy- there's a bunch of roads that are public access that already exist in places like Satori and Heterocera. 

And thanks so much for the education on finding good parcels- I practice a lot of those tips as well and try to find the trifecta of 'on a road, near/on accessible water, with residents who also invested in the area'. I find them most times by driving around and seeing an area that has a clear resident investment (Like my fav sim Lusca in Corsica), then looking for accessible land around. 

It's dope to see more folks interested in building up mainland and finding ways to work with the moles to create public spaces for the benefit of all! Sending thanks to Bjoy, Feorie, and others doing the work of creating a better experience on mainland for all to enjoy.