DISAPPOINTMENT IN CHARGING TO USE THE EVENTS CALENDAR

[Bridget Hammill]

44 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

The real issue isn't the charging for using the events calendar - it's the awful way clubs and events are run in SL. In its current state, a club will never operate in the black, even those that charge for membership. 

I think that clubs should have cover charges, at least for events, and pay the bills (and that includes the hiring of staff, talent, advertising, tier, etc.) out of that. As it is now, clubs are essentially RPing being clubs since they don't operate in any way like RL clubs. Either swallow the costs of your RP as a club owner, or start operating as a business using real world business acumen. 

I can only speak for myself, but I'd happily pay a cover charge to hear my favorite musician or DJ if it meant that begging for tips for the staff, the talent, AND the club was dramatically decreased. 

I do run in the black.  My sim for my club costs around 300 us a month.  I charge for advertising on my stream and am able to pay for my sim this way.  Before I got the club built up i was paying for this my self but as I was able to grow my club I was able to get it to pay for itself.  

[Beth Macbain]

Just now, Bridget Hammill said:

I do run in the black.  My sim for my club costs around 300 us a month.  I charge for advertising on my stream and am able to pay for my sim this way.  Before I got the club built up i was paying for this my self but as I was able to grow my club I was able to get it to pay for itself.  

Increase the price of advertising on your stream since your costs to advertise your events is increasing?

[Bridget Hammill]

2 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Okay...

But what does that have to do with anything I said? 

I'm sorry I must have misunderstood you.  I thought you were suggesting that we need to pay for our hobbies.  I was explaining that I do.

[Bridget Hammill]

3 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

it's not really relevant if you get enough tips to pay your rent or not .. and it's a choice to run a club. 
But if  clubowner doesn't pay the hosts or other responsible employees for posting in the events you'r a louzy place to work for. Large club or not.

I can promise you that the people who work at my club make more than the club.  Maybe hosts and dj's should tip the venue that they work for so it can run and have a place for them to work:)

[Beth Macbain]

8 minutes ago, Bridget Hammill said:

I'm sorry I must have misunderstood you.  I thought you were suggesting that we need to pay for our hobbies.  I was explaining that I do.

But I thought you said you operate in the black? You're actually making money off your hobby. The price of that hobby is increasing slightly. I'm not sure what you're upset about. Do none of the other costs in your life ever increase? 

[Qie Niangao]

Hey @Bridget Hammill, I wonder if you have any real data one way or another about whether Event listings actually draw in attendance to events? I posted earlier about why I have doubts, but I've never seen anybody study it, and you have such a big venue it might be possible to tell.

(There are probably easier ways to know, but off the top of my head I'd try listing the event on a location distinct from where any normal arrival would occur, probably turning off any landing point or separating a parcel just for the event-listing location, then counting heads of who arrives at the listing location. Something like that. But you may have a better way to collect the data.)

It's certainly possible that some kinds of events (and venues?) get more Event-listing traffic than others, so I guess it wouldn't be a universal finding anyway, but still it seems of interest.

I guess a venue might also be interested in whether visits arising from an Event listing convert to tips and other revenue at the same rate as do other arrivals. Probably folks who run venues as a serious business know all this stuff already.

[Jaylinbridges]

5 hours ago, Adam Spark said:

Source on extra charging for recurring events?

The LL announcement - Basic members have to pay for every event, reoccurring or not:

"We’ve heard many complaints from our Residents about duplicated event listings and spam. To combat this problem, we’re introducing a nominal fee which will help discourage spamming and encourage higher-quality events from committed event hosts. Basic members will be charged L$50 to create an event listing while Premium members will pay L$10. On the heels of this change, we will introduce the ability for Premium members to schedule recurring events." 

It is not clear whether reoccurring event listings will also cost L$10 for each reoccurring event for Premium - most likely they will.

I still have to laugh at their reason for the increases.  Spam will always be there, but it is easily  removed by intelligent use of the Search functions.  Duplicates for the SAME event are rare, hardly causing spam.  The "complainers" are most likely people still using the SL Viewer and the web-based Events page,  and those that still can't figure out Search.   LL should just refer complainers to the Firestorm viewer and the internal SL Event App (which Singularity also uses btw) 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Jaylinbridges

[Adam Spark]

1 hour ago, Beth Macbain said:

Because nothing ever changes and there is only one way to skin a cat.

Sorry, no, I don't buy that excuse. Something not working once is no indicator that something will never work. 

Sure, the fact that it didn't work then doesn't mean it will never work. But the fact that that it died so fast and so completely with choruses of "it'll never work" by the very audience that would be paying them is a strong indicator, along with the way SL residents are tipping less and less. People in SL demand freedom to pay as they choose.

If you do a DJ set or a live performance and I'm a fan of yours who shows up to all of your events, pays lindens whenever I can whether its 50, 100, or even more (which add up over time), and suddenly I see I HAVE to pay 300L to show up each and every time I want to hear you. I might be able to do that, and if I can I would. No problem. But if I can't and I no longer show up, you're out what I would have tipped.

Second Life is a micro economy. It isn't just roleplay (usually) to run a club, but it isn't real world business either. Not everyone will ever tip. But even the most generous of tippers can only tip so often. Like RL dollars, linden dollars don't grow on trees (even if they used to, LOL).

I would much rather be reminded about tipping every 20 minutes (some newbies don't even know of the concept, and others - like myself often - get wrapped up in the event and forget to tip - so I feel its a necessary evil) than to be forced to pay.

[Adam Spark]

25 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The LL announcement - Basic members have to pay for every event, reoccurring or not:

"We’ve heard many complaints from our Residents about duplicated event listings and spam. To combat this problem, we’re introducing a nominal fee which will help discourage spamming and encourage higher-quality events from committed event hosts. Basic members will be charged L$50 to create an event listing while Premium members will pay L$10. On the heels of this change, we will introduce the ability for Premium members to schedule recurring events." 

It is not clear whether reoccurring event listings will also cost $10 for each reoccurring event for Premium - most likely they will.

I still have to laugh at their reason for the increases.  Spam will always be there, but it is easily  removed by intelligent use of the Search functions.  Duplicates for the SAME event are rare, hardly causing spam.  The "complainers" are most likely people still using the SL Viewer and the web-based Events page,  and those that still can't figure out Search.   LL should just refer complainers to the Firestorm viewer and the internal SL Event App (which Singularity also uses btw) 

Some people who use events don't want to find specific events, they want to see everything that is going on and find something interesting. Spam does get in the way of that. I'll often browse the live music category to see what singers are there. That is a cleaner category than most, but it illustrates my point. Search functions do no good for some of the use cases as search won't always accomplish what people are after.

And thanks, I misread. On the heels of the fees indicates that premium won't be paying extra, but the lack of explicit statement suggests we better wait and see.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Adam Spark

[Jaylinbridges]

4 hours ago, Adam Spark said:

 I'll often browse the live music category to see what singers are there. That is a cleaner category than most, but it illustrates my point. Search functions do no good for some of the use cases as search won't always accomplish what people are after.

Category selection IS a part of Searching.  I use Live music category all the time, and seldom see any adult spam, when viewing G, M, and A rating listings.  There is no issue with the Live Music Category.  And all other categories are not overloaded with spam, EXCEPT Nightlife/Entertainment!  Here is the Nightlife first page listing for today, with Adult (and G and M) categories checked.  Not a single M or G rated listing from 3AM to 9AM!  Please tell me these trashy sex joints will all go away if they have to pay for listing.  There is a LOT of pay for sex involved at these joints, and I don't mean 50 $L/act.

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Jaylinbridges

[Jaylinbridges]

And here is the same Firestorm Event search listing with  Adult Unchecked:  Clubs that are Adult category with Moderate content do not show here - it was the club owners choice to locate on an Adult rated sim.   You notice the total absence of trashy pay for sex spam with Adult unchecked?

Edited November 26, 2019 by Jaylinbridges

[Bridget Hammill]

4 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

But I thought you said you operate in the black? You're actually making money off your hobby. The price of that hobby is increasing slightly. I'm not sure what you're upset about. Do none of the other costs in your life ever increase? 

Yes I do pay for my hobbie.  I do not cash out.  What I am make I use to pay my tier.

[Bridget Hammill]

17 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Hey @Bridget Hammill, I wonder if you have any real data one way or another about whether Event listings actually draw in attendance to events? I posted earlier about why I have doubts, but I've never seen anybody study it, and you have such a big venue it might be possible to tell.

(There are probably easier ways to know, but off the top of my head I'd try listing the event on a location distinct from where any normal arrival would occur, probably turning off any landing point or separating a parcel just for the event-listing location, then counting heads of who arrives at the listing location. Something like that. But you may have a better way to collect the data.)

It's certainly possible that some kinds of events (and venues?) get more Event-listing traffic than others, so I guess it wouldn't be a universal finding anyway, but still it seems of interest.

I guess a venue might also be interested in whether visits arising from an Event listing convert to tips and other revenue at the same rate as do other arrivals. Probably folks who run venues as a serious business know all this stuff already.

hi Qie,

I have never done any real research.  I do know that I use the events posting that is in world.  I my self do not use the one in the dashboard as I agree it is a nightmare.  I find the one in world very easy to use and to nail it down to just what I am searching for. I am confused as to where the spam comes from on the in world events as we are only allowed to post one per event so this whole thing has been a bit confusing.  Your correct it would be interesting to collect data.  As I said I have just been going by the fact that I know that I use it and many of my friends.

bridget

[Qie Niangao]

To kinda repeat myself from earlier, the reason I ask about real data is that, when I was a n00b ages ago, I could search Events for "gay" and get results. Now there's nothing there... I mean, I'd be lucky to get spam! Thing is, there are definitely gay events happening all the time, and my friends clue me in on when and where to find them because there are zero search listings. And that's all fine, works for me, etc., but it leaves me wondering: Why don't they list any of those many events in search? What do they know that I don't know?

(But then, even if there is a benefit for some kinds of events at some kinds of venues to list in search, it might be useful to do something like A/B testing to do very basic SEO on the listing text, especially when there'll be a nominal fee for those listings.)

[Adam Spark]

22 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Category selection IS a part of Searching.  I use Live music category all the time, and seldom see any adult spam, when viewing G, M, and A rating listings.  There is no issue with the Live Music Category.  And all other categories are not overloaded with spam, EXCEPT Nightlife/Entertainment!  Here is the Nightlife first page listing for today, with Adult (and G and M) categories checked.  Not a single M or G rated listing from 3AM to 9AM!  Please tell me these trashy sex joints will all go away if they have to pay for listing.  There is a LOT of pay for sex involved at these joints, and I don't mean 50 $L/act.

 

Trashy isn't spam. An event doesn't have to appeal to our sensibilities to be legitimate. Matter of fact the fact that the vast majority of it is in the right category is refreshing.

There is spam in this example - and I do think it will be curbed. Such as at 7am - the  Don't Kiss & Tell event listed 3 times. That needs to stop and while I'm not sure the cost is enough to stop it, its a start.

Until Linden Lab does away with the Adult category and says that anything considered Adult content, by the standards set with the establishment of maturity ratings, is now banned, "trashy sex joints" will never go away, nor should they have to.

[Jaylinbridges]

37 minutes ago, Adam Spark said:

Trashy isn't spam. An event doesn't have to appeal to our sensibilities to be legitimate. Matter of fact the fact that the vast majority of it is in the right category is refreshing.

This is also the category where music and dance clubs with DJ's appear.  If you are simply looking for a DJ music/dance venue, and you got the above list, than this is unwanted spam.  The above list includes M and G rated clubs - so where are they?  Overwhelmed by the trashy sex joints and escort services.  

One solution is for LL to create a new category only for dance and music DJ clubs that are M-rated.  And create another category called Adult Sex - where only adult rated sims could list their "events".   Put all the sex listings in their own category.  I am sure the Johns looking for a one hour companion would appreciate that too.  

What to do about M-rated music and dance clubs located on an Adult region is another issue.  They would not be allowed to post in the M-rated club category unless there was another way to prove they were not another adult sex club.  There needs to be a way to separate the obvious pay for sex adult joints, from normal M-rated DJ and music clubs, or this adult spam problem will never be solved.  And my suggestion that people intelligently learn to use the search functions seems to be way too much to expect from SL Residents.

 

[Adam Spark]

2 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

This is also the category where music and dance clubs with DJ's appear.  If you are simply looking for a DJ music/dance venue, and you got the above list, than this is unwanted spam.  The above list includes M and G rated clubs - so where are they?  Overwhelmed by the trashy sex joints and escort services.  

One solution is for LL to create a new category only for dance and music DJ clubs that are M-rated.  And create another category called Adult Sex - where only adult rated sims could list their "events".   Put all the sex listings in their own category.  I am sure the Johns looking for a one hour companion would appreciate that too.  

What to do about M-rated music and dance clubs located on an Adult region is another issue.  They would not be allowed to post in the M-rated club category unless there was another way to prove they were not another adult sex club.  There needs to be a way to separate the obvious pay for sex adult joints, from normal M-rated DJ and music clubs, or this adult spam problem will never be solved.  And my suggestion that people intelligently learn to use the search functions seems to be way too much to expect from SL Residents.

 

I do agree with the solution of creating an Adult category in events. It would go further to isolate it from those who do not want to see it, yet still be easily accessible to those who might.

Unfortunately the Sim rating vs Club rating issue is a tricky one. So many variables go into where club owners put their land - whether its what they know about a landlord, cost of the parcel, availability of land, ect. It is also very easy to miss the rating when you are shopping for land and not even realize what you are getting. Its similar to how DJs sometimes list events in Live Music instead of nightlife. Difficult to police without doing so manually.

It isn't spam, however. One legitimate event appearing before another isn't spam just because you are looking for the latter one. Linden Lab just needs to do a better job at providing a calendar that works better for everybody, including the trashy sex joints and escort services.

Getting rid of spam - events posted more than once, in all genres of event (I once saw a live singer event posted 32 times in live music, so even that category does get some spam) would be a big help, and I think these changes are a start.

An adult category, as you suggested, would really be the only way to move adult events out of the way of more General/Moderate ones. The "trashy" event hosts have every right to put their events up on the calendar and nightlife is the more appropriate category for such posts right now. The only other way I can think of is for M/G event hosts to try and get their events up sooner, as events submitted sooner appear higher in the list. Perhaps adult events are getting posted way earlier, since they don't involve (mostly) scheduling entertainment like DJs and live singers?

[Selene Gregoire]

On 11/24/2019 at 1:34 PM, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

There are some live performers that require you to post to events for their shows. The event listing did need a re-do, but they should charge the lower amount no matter if you're a premie or not.

 

It's wrong to punish all basic accounts for something that both basic and premium accounts are guilty of. If LL is of the mind that charging basics more will push them to go premium, they're dead wrong. What it will do is push them out of SL. Maybe not right away but sooner or later they will get fed up with being punished for the acts of others and leave. The opposite effect of what they are wanting which is for everyone to go premium. That isn't going to happen either. It's as if businesses have completely overlooked the fact that money doesn't grow on trees in RL like it once did in SL. 

I could see 10Ls across the board for events and for recurring events a monthly charge at a discount, maybe based on the number of events per week. Anything over a certain number per week would have to pay the 10Ls per event. What would be a fair number? I would think somewhere around 14 - 21 per week. That's 2 - 3 events per day which should cover most events.

 

[Selene Gregoire]

On 11/26/2019 at 10:58 AM, Nadia Chatterbox said:

As Alvin said, it’s a choice to own a club.  If you require your hosts to post on the event boards, you should pay for it.  Why should they have to come out of pocket for something when it’s your club, and they’re working for tips?

Back when we owned/operated clubs in SL it was part of the host/hostess' job description to post the events they were hosting. As such they were paid for doing that by those that actually paid their staff like we did.  It wasn't just tips. Nor did we take a cut of their tips as many (if not all) venues do now. Paying the host/hostess to post events is a business expense that was included in the salary/wages. Treat your employees well and you won't have a high turnover.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

5 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

 

It's wrong to punish all basic accounts for something that both basic and premium accounts are guilty of. If LL is of the mind that charging basics more will push them to go premium, they're dead wrong. What it will do is push them out of SL. Maybe not right away but sooner or later they will get fed up with being punished for the acts of others and leave. The opposite effect of what they are wanting which is for everyone to go premium. That isn't going to happen either. It's as if businesses have completely overlooked the fact that money doesn't grow on trees in RL like it once did in SL. 

I could see 10Ls across the board for events and for recurring events a monthly charge at a discount, maybe based on the number of events per week. Anything over a certain number per week would have to pay the 10Ls per event. What would be a fair number? I would think somewhere around 14 - 21 per week. That's 2 - 3 events per day which should cover most events.

Although I have a premie account --- I do plan to let it go since I no longer operate a club in SL.

But for others you do have a great idea about the across the board thing!

[Damian Mills]

On 11/23/2019 at 7:22 PM, Bridget Hammill said:

As a club owner who uses the events calendar in the correct way

OK Bridget.  I'm in Muddy's pretty much every single night.  I'm curious what sorts of events you would post to the event calendar?  I've never looked and can't imagine why I would.  I go to Muddy's because it's a great music club.  I don't need to know that there's a DJ there.... there is ALWAYS a DJ there.  Nor do I need to know what DJ is there.  If I am a fan of a particular DJ I'll be in their group so I'll know where they are.  If I'm not, then it's "just another DJ" to me.

If you post other events there... real events.... I would never know because just as everyone says, the events calendar is something approximating useless.  The only value I get out of it is live music and even then it's a pain.  I should think it'd work in your favor to have your actual events be actually usable to people.  You seem to think otherwise.  Can you clarify what sort of "events" you are talking about and how you expect me, a Muddy's customer, to take advantage of those listings?

[Adam Spark]

3 hours ago, Damian Mills said:

OK Bridget.  I'm in Muddy's pretty much every single night.  I'm curious what sorts of events you would post to the event calendar?  I've never looked and can't imagine why I would.  I go to Muddy's because it's a great music club.  I don't need to know that there's a DJ there.... there is ALWAYS a DJ there.  Nor do I need to know what DJ is there.  If I am a fan of a particular DJ I'll be in their group so I'll know where they are.  If I'm not, then it's "just another DJ" to me.

If you post other events there... real events.... I would never know because just as everyone says, the events calendar is something approximating useless.  The only value I get out of it is live music and even then it's a pain.  I should think it'd work in your favor to have your actual events be actually usable to people.  You seem to think otherwise.  Can you clarify what sort of "events" you are talking about and how you expect me, a Muddy's customer, to take advantage of those listings?

Not everybody has the group room to follow their favorite DJs. You may not need the info, but that doesn't mean or even come close to suggesting that nobody does.

Singers get posted and nobody bats an eye. DJs are trying to attract an audience and equally deserve the advertising any event gets.

Should clubs only post a full lineup? Maybe. We can debate how to structure the events. But any time a club owner puts somebody on stage for people to hear its long been referred to and accepted as an event.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

58 minutes ago, Adam Spark said:

 

Singers get posted and nobody bats an eye. DJs are trying to attract an audience and equally deserve the advertising any event gets.

 

Due to ethical considerations I do not attend DJ events where they ask for money.  RARE to see me at such an event I should say. 

[Adam Spark]

8 hours ago, Tarina Sewell said:

Due to ethical considerations I do not attend DJ events where they ask for money.  RARE to see me at such an event I should say. 

Where they ask for money themselves? Or where the venues ask to tip them?

If its the former, I tend to avoid anyone who asks for money themselves. Being a DJ has nothing to do with the ethics of that to me. If its the latter, that should happen. DJs should not be treated any differently than anyone else trying to do the job they were hired for and that they enjoy doing.

[Selene Gregoire]

7 minutes ago, Adam Spark said:

Where they ask for money themselves? Or where the venues ask to tip them?

If its the former, I tend to avoid anyone who asks for money themselves. Being a DJ has nothing to do with the ethics of that to me. If its the latter, that should happen. DJs should not be treated any differently than anyone else trying to do the job they were hired for and that they enjoy doing.

These days it's rare for a DJ to be paid by the venue so the DJs have to depend on tips.