Zero-Sum Mesh Body Support

[Lealora Rainfall]

Hello everyone, 

I've noticed a more and more prevalent trend in the development of apparel.  Specifically, the replacement of Belleza - Isis mesh body apparel with The Shops - Legacy mesh body apparel. 

Is there no real growth in the market that allows for a new mesh body to be supported without cannibalizing support for another? For a mesh body just released a few months ago it is hard for me to believe the customer base is higher Is which has been on the market for years.  So, is this a fad or the new status quo of the market? I'm just trying to gauge how things are going to turn out.   

I would be keenly interested on hearing from any developer as to why you are switching support.  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

24 minutes ago, Lealora Rainfall said:

Hello everyone, 

I've noticed a more and more prevalent trend in the development of apparel.  Specifically, the replacement of Belleza - Isis mesh body apparel with The Shops - Legacy mesh body apparel. 

Is there no real growth in the market that allows for a new mesh body to be supported without cannibalizing support for another? For a mesh body just released a few months ago it is hard for me to believe the customer base is higher Is which has been on the market for years.  So, is this a fad or the new status quo of the market? I'm just trying to gauge how things are going to turn out.   

I would be keenly interested on hearing from any developer as to why you are switching support.  

I have been facing the same issue with my Slink Physique body -- in the past few months, there has been a quantifiable and very noticeable drop in support for it. Pretty much everything is now Maitreya Lara, Slink Hourglass, and (sometimes) Belleza Freya.

There are two related problems here. One is the failure of LL to establish, from the beginning, a "standard" for rigging and weighting that would apply to all mesh bodies and their apparel. And the second is that, without that, the provision of creators of clothing for various different bodies is going to be determined almost entirely by market forces. If a clothing creator has decided that it's not worth her while anymore to produce clothes rigged for Physique and Isis, well . . . they may be wrong, but ultimately  they are the ones who get to make that determination. It's their time and effort, after all.

There really isn't a good solution for this anymore. What I think is probably happening, has been happening for some time, is that we are moving closer and closer to a monopoly situation in some creative fields, and most especially mesh bodies and heads. And that is in no way a good thing.

One thing that might happen (and has already been happening, to some degree) is that more mesh body producers will emulate, albeit imperfectly, the rigging used by Maitreya. And it is possible that someone will come out with a new body so amazing that it gives the established mesh makers some serious competition. That actually did happen, recently, in the market for women's mesh heads, with the advent of Genus, which has leapt forward to become one of the most popular new products available.

What I'd really like to see, in the absence of leadership from LL, is the mesh creators get together themselves and agree on a set of standards. But that likely ain't going to happen.

[kiramanell]

33 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I have been facing the same issue with my Slink Physique body -- in the past few months, there has been a quantifiable and very noticeable drop in support for it. Pretty much everything is now Maitreya Lara, Slink Hourglass, and (sometimes) Belleza Freya.

 

Sorry for cutting your great outline short. Just wanted to quickly pop in, and thank you confirming what stuff I need to be getting for my full body overhaul.  I'll be going shopping with Prudence, ere long, and she pretty much already said the same things. Too bad I recently also bought a new Slink Physique body and head (for a mermaid; you know, in the spirit of the whole Bellisseria thang). But, way it is is the way it is, I suppose.😛 And this time I'll be sure to get all the good stuff.  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

Sorry for cutting your great outline short. Just wanted to quickly pop in, and thank you confirming what stuff I need to be getting for my full body overhaul.  I'll be going shopping with Prudence, ere long, and she pretty much already said the same things. Too bad I recently also bought a new Slink Physique body and head (for a mermaid; you know, in the spirit of the whole Bellisseria thang). But, way it is is the way it is, I suppose.😛 And this time I'll be sure to get all the good stuff.  

Yeah. At some point in the not-too-distant future, I'll be biting the bullet and (resentfully) picking up a Maitreya. It's the one mesh body that everyone makes clothing for. And, fortunately, it's pretty comparable to Slink Physique in terms of overall look. I'll stick with Physique for some of my outfits though: there's still a lot of slightly older clothing available for it.

On the bright side, the fact that Physique is disappearing as an option for new clothing has helped keep my shopping budget in line! I'd have bought a lot of things that I didn't if they were made for Physique, or I had a Lara. So, I'm sadder . . . but a bit less poor!

[KT Kingsley]

Don't forget that Bakes on Mesh is just around the corner (currently fighting it out with EEP for the next major feature release).

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, KT Kingsley said:

Don't forget that Bakes on Mesh is just around the corner (currently fighting it out with EEP for the next major feature release).

Bakes on Mesh will likely be a boon for things like tattoo layers and applying system-type layers to a mesh body, but sadly it's not going to help make a garment designed for one mesh body fit better on another.

[Bree Giffen]

I had to switch from Isis to Lara because of this new mesh phase we're going through. I threw away the Lara versions of clothes when I was buying for the Isis body but thankfully most of the stores had a redelivery option. I don't like a monopoly. What if the Lara creator dies? Then everyone would need a huge wardrobe change.  If other mesh body creators die or their business stops for some reason it would turn SL fashion into a madhouse. Thanks LL for hinging a large amount of your income on a single person's ability to maintain their product line.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Bree Giffen

[Scylla Rhiadra]

17 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Thanks LL for hinging a large amount of your income on a single person's ability to maintain their product line.

Exactly. And it's not merely the possible eventuality of the owner of a near-monopoly dying or leaving. They might inevitably have an enormous influence on LL's decisions and on the health of the platform.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

I hoped linden lab would have stepped in long before it would become a problem, but I doubt they ever will now.

A universal body will never happen again.

The biggest issue to me is that body wise not all options are equal, many of those body devkits come with pretty heavy strings attached, this gives a tremendous amount of power to their creators to manipulate the market.

 

This is probably why I'm terrible at marketing, but, as a creator,  just focus on bodies you actually like and use, rather than what the majority uses.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Kyrah Abattoir

[Alyona Su]

It's all relative. I have the Slink Physique, Maitreya, Tonic Fine, Eve, and all three Belleza (since before they were available separately) and I always keep coming back to my Venus (the only one that I can create my truly desired shape with). Many creators who've created for Venus have stopped and I simply no longer shop with them (unless there are still some items in my favorites, but otherwise off my list.) The better-known creators (Blueberry, GAS, Addams) still support Venus and that's good enough for me. If I search MP for Belleza AND Venus I still come up with 45k items in Apparel alone, even with demos, color duplicates, and gachas removed it will still comeout to 35-40k items.

My main point is that other than Maitreya, all the others fall far behind in shopper numbers. So what? There is still PLENTY of stuff for your chosen body and it is likely still supported by the better creators anyway.

The problem is that most merchants (creators) have ZERO analytics to tell them which body to stop supporting (or reinforce support for) - they *think* it's always Maitreya that should be their base. But they are just jumping into a far more crowded swimming pool, a lot less likely to get noticed (unless already well-established). IF they were smart they would package each body version as a separate buy, THEN they would know which bodies actually sell better than others. But that takes an ounce of business sense (and bundling all together is better for people with multiple bodies LOL.)

TL;DR: I wouldn't worry about it at all. The best stuff from the big-name creators will still be there for your chosen body and there already is more than you can ever buy already.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Janet Voxel]

I haven’t noticed too many brands dropping support for Isis. I have noticed quite a few brands have added Legacy though. Even a few brands that only made stuff that only made for Lara are now making for Legacy too. I just find that strange.

Legacy is the newest thing. Creators are going to test the market for it, for a while. I think quite a few creators supported TMP up until maybe last year? If it’s a truly better body, people are going to buy it and stick with it. If not, it’ll fall by the wayside.

Here’s the thing though, if you want creators to support Isis, why not write them a notecard asking them too again. Some will respond, some won’t. The important thing is, it’ll give them something to think about.

[kiramanell]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Exactly. And it's not merely the possible eventuality of the owner of a near-monopoly dying or leaving. They might inevitably have an enormous influence on LL's decisions and on the health of the platform.

 

^^ A very good point. At first I thought "Hey, isn't standardization a good thing?!" And it is. But not as a monopoly, run by just 1 shop (in the extreme). The real issue, however, is exactly what you said, a "failure of LL to establish, from the beginning, a "standard" for rigging and weighting that would apply to all mesh bodies and their apparel."

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 hours ago, Lealora Rainfall said:

Hello everyone, 

I've noticed a more and more prevalent trend in the development of apparel.  Specifically, the replacement of Belleza - Isis mesh body apparel with The Shops - Legacy mesh body apparel. 

Is there no real growth in the market that allows for a new mesh body to be supported without cannibalizing support for another? For a mesh body just released a few months ago it is hard for me to believe the customer base is higher Is which has been on the market for years.  So, is this a fad or the new status quo of the market? I'm just trying to gauge how things are going to turn out.   

I would be keenly interested on hearing from any developer as to why you are switching support.  

The situation with the "Legacy" body is quite interesting. I imagine that one of the big reasons makers are supporting it now is that it's new, which means that users will need to buy new "everything" for it, whereas with an older body the user will compare a new offering to the things they already have and may or may not be in the mood to buy things that are often very similar to things that have been on the market for years.

Also, the price of the Legacy body being so high suggests that the people who bought it are going to be unusually willing to spend Lindens.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

The biggest issue to me is that body wise not all options are equal, many of those body devkits come with pretty heavy strings attached, this gives a tremendous amount of power to their creators to manipulate the market.

Another really excellent point. And indeed, one does hear that some body makers are very restrictive in terms of the access they provide to the devKits. A near stranglehold on the market gives them enormous leverage and power over entire sectors of the SL economy.

Of course, makers who stop producing for rival bodies aren't helping themselves in that regard.

4 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

Legacy is the newest thing. Creators are going to test the market for it, for a while. I think quite a few creators supported TMP up until maybe last year? If it’s a truly better body, people are going to buy it and stick with it. If not, it’ll fall by the wayside.

Yeah, I've noticed some buzz around Legacy. Maybe it will become the Genus of female mesh bodies, and provide a real challenge for the leading makers?

[Selene Gregoire]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What I'd really like to see, in the absence of leadership from LL, is the mesh creators get together themselves and agree on a set of standards. But that likely ain't going to happen.

They couldn't even agree on standard dress sizes years ago when the whole thing got started, among other things. And to top it all off they expected the consumers to change body shape every time we changed clothes. That's a flat HELL NO!

What we have now is a far cry better than what we had 5 years ago.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

I wonder if the market could bear a new body that doesnt use fitmesh? "One size fits perfectly" basically.

[Selene Gregoire]

7 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

^^ A very good point. At first I thought "Hey, isn't standardization a good thing?!" And it is. But not as a monopoly, run by just 1 shop (in the extreme). The real issue, however, is exactly what you said, a "failure of LL to establish, from the beginning, a "standard" for rigging and weighting that would apply to all mesh bodies and their apparel."

Standardization isn't always a good thing when it comes to clothing. I'm going to use a RL example for this. They make bras in 34 and 36 sizes but not 35. I need the 35 but since that size has never been made, I have never found a bra that actually fits properly which means I don't wear the damn things unless I have to (which is any time I leave home) because they are so uncomfortable for me.

That's what I do like about rigging. It almost completely eliminates that problem.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

They couldn't even agree on standard dress sizes years ago when the whole thing got started, among other things. And to top it all off they expected the consumers to change body shape every time we changed clothes. That's a flat HELL NO!

What we have now is a far cry better than what we had 5 years ago.

Agreed that standard sizing was/is a mess. Apart from the fact that it wasn't, in fact, "standard" at all, I really disliked the fact that it more or less dictated your body shape. I chose to have, for instance, smaller breasts than the norm, but with standard sizes my choice made no difference: I was stuck with standard boobs.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Standardization isn't always a good thing when it comes to clothing. I'm going to use a RL example for this. They make bras in 34 and 36 sizes but not 35. I need the 35 but since that size has never been made, I have never found a bra that actually fits properly which means I don't wear the damn things unless I have to (which is any time I leave home) because they are so uncomfortable for me.

That's what I do like about rigging. It almost completely eliminates that problem.

By "standard," I think what Kira means -- and certainly what I mean -- is standardized rigging and weighting, not standard sizes. No question that rigged clothes are better than standard sizes.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

To go back on the zero sum thing, it kinda is, in a way, creators don't magically get more time to rig/fit to the ever growing range of mesh bodies.

In tend to mesh my rigged stuff for a single body (the one I always use) because adapting to different geometry typically doesnt work well for my models (far too aggressive with optimization), but sometimes if i notice that its 'close' to fitting another body i'll "loosen" things a little to help.

[kiramanell]

12 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Standardization isn't always a good thing when it comes to clothing. I'm going to use a RL example for this. They make bras in 34 and 36 sizes but not 35. I need the 35 but since that size has never been made, I have never found a bra that actually fits properly which means I don't wear the damn things unless I have to (which is any time I leave home) because they are so uncomfortable for me.

That's what I do like about rigging. It almost completely eliminates that problem.

 

That's a good point too!  Standardization is great for like when you want to use a cable to connect 2 pieces of equipment, but not so great for clothing: if you're only slightly outside of regular measurements, your choices become drastically reduced!

[kiramanell]

12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

By "standard," I think what Kira means -- and certainly what I mean -- is standardized rigging and weighting, not standard sizes. No question that rigged clothes are better than standard sizes.

 

^^ Yes. A uniform (lame pun intended) way of doing things; standard sizes are, indeed, not so good.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

Just now, kiramanell said:

 

^^ Yes. A uniform (lame pun intended) way of doing things; standard sizes are, indeed, not so good.

I'm still on the fence in that regard, i somtimes wonder if some customizations even matter if they are barely noticeable.

[Janet Voxel]

19 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yeah, I've noticed some buzz around Legacy. Maybe it will become the Genus of female mesh bodies, and provide a real challenge for the leading makers?

I doubt it’ll become like Genus was to Catwa. TMP got a really bad reputation for many reasons. Genus had a good reputation as Genesis Lab and had a smart strategy of doing a beta after rebranding.

Legacy is just the newest thing. What I can’t put my finger on, is why it’s getting so much support even from creators that haven’t supported anything else but Maitreya. 

As we all know, creator support drives body sales, which is why Maitreya is on top. It’s not that it’s a better body. There are other bodies that are just as good that get very little support and they give away their developer kits.

No....something else is at play here.

[Coffee Pancake]

I'm been though a few bodies so far and found the Freya to be my favorite .. Lara is looks like a stick figure, and sadly is the only body with almost universal support.

And while everyone seems to target Lara, few manage to rig correctly for it, especially if you are more than a 15% away from the default/creators body shape.

I would certainly give very strong consideration to a new official body with boosted poly count and no onion skins.