Re: Gacha Missing and EMPTY BOXES....

[FairreLilette]

And, also in America, at least where I live, we don't have encapsulated toys.  I haven't been to an arcade in quite a few years but we don't have "lucky dip" type toy games because they don't contain toys that are hidden in a capsule like in Japan.

The psychology of loot boxes has been likened to the 'lucky dip' nature of plastic capsule toys dispensed by vending machines, seen across the world but particularly popular in Japan. However, their virtual existence is linked to the so-called freemium business model, starting with free games apps on mobile phones where users can opt to enrich by paying small amounts 

Edited March 5, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Silent Mistwalker]

Interesting.

Studying Gacha Progression What is “gacha” and how does it differ from lootboxes?

https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/492272/gacha-vs-loot-boxes

https://www.giantbomb.com/gacha-system/3015-8997/forums/are-gacha-systems-loot-boxes-wiki-focused-1828542/

[LittleMe Jewell]

12 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

And, also in America, at least where I live, we don't have encapsulated toys.

 

You've not visited enough arcades, circus, carnivals, and other children's play areas.  I wouldn't have any trouble at all find the following -- which are 'encapsulated toys'.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Rowan Amore]

In April of 2018, the Netherlands Gaming Authority conducted a study of 10 unnamed games, and concluded that four of the games were in violation of Netherlands laws concerning gambling. To be exact, the study said (via PC Gamer), "that the content of these loot boxes is determined by chance and that the prizes to be won can be traded outside of the game: the prizes have a market value." In order to sell such items in the Netherlands a license is required but given the current laws, no license can be given to game companies, so "these loot boxes (were) prohibited." The loot boxes used in the other games were deemed legal because they lack "market value." According to the study, those loot boxes whose prizes wouldn't be traded constituted a low risk for gambling addiction, being akin to "small-scale bingo." The marketable loot boxes though, those which are banned in the country, "have integral elements that are similar to slot machines."

Gatchas are the same in this respect.  They can be sold for more than you paid for them and your Lindens cashed out for USD.  Although they can't be traded outside of SL, they certainly have RL value if sold and the Lindens cashed out.

Personally, I don't care one way or the other but arguing semantics is kind of pointless.  

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

12 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

 

You've not visited enough arcades, circus, carnivals, and other children's play areas.  I wouldn't have any trouble at all find the following -- which are 'encapsulated toys'.

 

 

Those things used to be everywhere. Right at the main entrances to grocery stores, dime stores, drug stores. They've been in the US over 50 years that I, personally, know of.

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

Those things used to be everywhere. Right at the main entrances to grocery stores, dime stores, drug stores. They've been in the US over 50 years that I, personally, know of.

Yeah - I remember chucking money into them as a child.  

The only time I see them now is at things like carnivals and arcades.

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Yeah - I remember chucking money into them as a child.  

The only time I see them now is at things like carnivals and arcades.

Now where am I supposed to get my temporary tattoo?!?!

[Silent Mistwalker]

9 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Yeah - I remember chucking money into them as a child.  

The only time I see them now is at things like carnivals and arcades.

I think what you call arcades is different where I grew up. We had game rooms. They were like bars but no alcohol because the customers were underage (18). There was one that was called The Arcade in the mall years later. The family owned ones were better. Pool tables, foos ball, arcade games, darts, food. They were great places to hang out. If you were my brothers. I wasn't allowed. But you never saw the gumball type machines at those places. We were teenagers, not little kids.

 

Edit: By different I mean we didn't call them arcades, we called them game rooms. Sorry. Lost my train of thought for a second there.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[Orwar]

   It really is difficult to define 'what a lootbox is' because it's up to each and every nation and lawmaker to make their own definitions. That gacha is or isn't a lootbox in Holland doesn't mean that it is or isn't a lootbox in Belgium or Liechtenstein.

[FairreLilette]

40 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

The problem with the above word Gacha is the encapsulated toys.  How SL came to name their Gachas Gachas is not known to me.  But, if you research further, the Gacha that is in question is the encapsulated toy which after my further reading is like a "lucky dip", it's an unknown item which I can see parents not wanting to spend their money on an unknown.

Edited March 5, 2021 by FairreLilette

[FairreLilette]

30 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

 

You've not visited enough arcades, circus, carnivals, and other children's play areas.  I wouldn't have any trouble at all find the following -- which are 'encapsulated toys'.

 

Okay, these are Gacha machines which started in Japan.  You cannot see the toy you are getting and that's what a loot box is - it contains unknowns which could be total crap.  

Edited March 5, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Silent Mistwalker]

People insist on source links and when those links are provided, they don't even bother to read them. 🙄

[Silent Mistwalker]

5 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Okay, these are Gacha machines which started in Japan.  You cannot see the toy you are getting and that's what a loot box is - it contains unknown which could be total crap.  

Those did not start in Japan and they are not gachas. THEY EXISTED LONG BEFORE JAPAN INVENTED GACHAS.

 

They evolved from the gumball machines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gumball_machine

Edited March 5, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Orwar said:

   It really is difficult to define 'what a lootbox is' because it's up to each and every nation and lawmaker to make their own definitions. That gacha is or isn't a lootbox in Holland doesn't mean that it is or isn't a lootbox in Belgium or Liechtenstein.

That's my point really.  What you and I define as one thing doesn't matter.  The legislation proposed in the US really only dealt with gamers under 18 and with boxes needed to advance game play so irrelevant for SL.  What's going on in other countries, I do not know.  I know Japan has some restrictions.  Every country will define as they see fit or not at all.

For me, any time you put pay money for an unknown thing, you're taking a gamble on receiving something you like.  I have a lot of green shoes that prove my point.

 

[Orwar]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

For me, any time you put pay money for an unknown thing, you're taking a gamble on receiving something you like.  I have a lot of green shoes that prove my point.

   Yes, that is sort of the definition of gambling, IMO. SL already has that, in a way, with skill gaming regions - so, maybe gachas may end up the same way if legislation is put into place.

[FairreLilette]

2 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Those did not start in Japan and they are not gachas. THEY EXISTED LONG BEFORE JAPAN INVENTED GACHAS.

I'm getting it from the Wiki.  Where do you get your information from?  I thought it said it started in Japan, but that's not really relevant anyways.  The encapsulated toys are how the word Gacha came about.  It's a hidden thing.  

In video games, a loot box (also called a loot/prize crate) is a consumable virtual item which can be redeemed to receive a randomised selection of further virtual items, or loot, ranging from simple customization options for a player's avatar or character, to game-changing equipment such as weapons and armor. A loot box is typically a form of monetisation, with players either buying the boxes directly or receiving the boxes during play and later buying "keys" with which to redeem them. These systems may also be known as gacha (based on gashapon – capsule toys) and integrated into gacha games.

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Those did not start in Japan and they are not gachas. THEY EXISTED LONG BEFORE JAPAN INVENTED GACHAS.

 

They evolved from the gumball machines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gumball_machine

 

1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

I'm getting it from the Wiki.  Where do you get your information from?  I thought it said it started in Japan, but that's not really relevant anyways.  The encapsulated toys are how the word Gacha came about.  It's a hidden thing.  

In video games, a loot box (also called a loot/prize crate) is a consumable virtual item which can be redeemed to receive a randomised selection of further virtual items, or loot, ranging from simple customization options for a player's avatar or character, to game-changing equipment such as weapons and armor. A loot box is typically a form of monetisation, with players either buying the boxes directly or receiving the boxes during play and later buying "keys" with which to redeem them. These systems may also be known as gacha (based on gashapon – capsule toys) and integrated into gacha games.

 

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I'm getting it from the Wiki.  Where do you get your information from?  I thought it said it started in Japan, but that's not really relevant anyways.  The encapsulated toys are how the word Gacha came about.  It's a hidden thing.  

In video games, a loot box (also called a loot/prize crate) is a consumable virtual item which can be redeemed to receive a randomised selection of further virtual items, or loot, ranging from simple customization options for a player's avatar or character, to game-changing equipment such as weapons and armor. A loot box is typically a form of monetisation, with players either buying the boxes directly or receiving the boxes during play and later buying "keys" with which to redeem them. These systems may also be known as gacha (based on gashapon – capsule toys) and integrated into gacha games.

So by your own citation, loot boxes are the same as gatchas.  Glad we cleared that up.

[LittleMe Jewell]

13 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Okay, these are Gacha machines which started in Japan.  You cannot see the toy you are getting and that's what a loot box is - it contains unknown which could be total crap.  

These machines usually contained either the same item in multiple colors/flavors or many different items.  For the ones that were a single item in different colors (or flavors if it was candy or gum), then you could always see what the actual item was in the plastic containers.

For the ones that were many different items, the machine always had a label showing all of the items -- like the Gacha Keys in SL.  And these machines were in existence in the US long before Gachas were in Japan.

 

 

6 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I'm getting it from the Wiki.  Where do you get your information from?  I thought it said it started in Japan, but that's not really relevant anyways.  The encapsulated toys are how the word Gacha came about.  It's a hidden thing.  

Silent's point was that the 'encapsulated toy' came about from the gumball machine era, not directly from Gachas.  Gashas used the encapsulated toy, but gachas did not create the encapsulted toy.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[FairreLilette]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So by your own citation, loot boxes are the same as gatchas.  Glad we cleared that up.

No, the Gachas the Wiki's are speaking about comes from the encapsulated toys.  

Gashapon (ガシャポン), also called gachapon (ガチャポン), are a variety of vending machine-dispensed capsule toys popular in Japan and elsewhere. "Gashapon" is onomatopoeic from the two sounds "gasha" (or "gacha") for the hand-cranking action of a toy-vending machine, and "pon" for the toy capsule landing in the collection tray. "Gashapon" is used for both the machines themselves and the toys obtained from them. Popular gashapon manufacturers include Tomy, which uses the shortened term gacha (ガチャ, gacha) for their capsule machines, and Kaiyodo. In the United States, "Gashapon" is a registered trademark of the Bandai Company,^[1] and gashapon are referred to as blind box sets due to packaging requirements by retailers prior to official distribution of the actual gashapon machines. The gashapon model has been adapted digitally into numerous gacha video games such as mobile phone games and massively multiplayer online games (MMOs).

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

No, the Gachas the Wiki's are speaking about comes from the encapsulated toys.  

Gashapon (ガシャポン), also called gachapon (ガチャポン), are a variety of vending machine-dispensed capsule toys popular in Japan and elsewhere. "Gashapon" is onomatopoeic from the two sounds "gasha" (or "gacha") for the hand-cranking action of a toy-vending machine, and "pon" for the toy capsule landing in the collection tray. "Gashapon" is used for both the machines themselves and the toys obtained from them. Popular gashapon manufacturers include Tomy, which uses the shortened term gacha (ガチャ, gacha) for their capsule machines, and Kaiyodo. In the United States, "Gashapon" is a registered trademark of the Bandai Company,^[1] and gashapon are referred to as blind box sets due to packaging requirements by retailers prior to official distribution of the actual gashapon machines. The gashapon model has been adapted digitally into numerous gacha video games such as mobile phone games and massively multiplayer online games (MMOs).

Gatchas are encapsulated in a box.  You can't SEE into it.  You don't know what you'll get until after you've paid.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[FairreLilette]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Gatchas are encapsulated in a box.  You can't SEE into it.  You don't know what you'll get until after you've paid.

Okay, I quickly looked at the machine on the right and it showed just toys in capsules like you have no idea what it is, now I see the other machines have a picture up top.  

I've never seen those.  Do they always give a toy that is shown on the picture?  I cannot see someone objecting to that if one gets a toy from the list shown.  That's my opinion of it right now.  That one machine that looks like all hidden toys I could see that as a total gamble.

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Okay, I quickly looked at the machine on the right and it showed just toys in capsules like you have no idea what it is, now I see the other machines have a picture up top.  

I've never seen those.  Do they always give a toy that is shown on the picture?  I cannot see someone objecting to that if one gets a toy from the list shown.  That's my opinion of it right now.  That one machine that looks like all hidden toys I could see that as a total gamble.

If the machine gives random different items, then there is always a picture showing all of the items. 

If the machine simply gives different colors/flavors of a single item type, then you can always see the type of item inside the plastic container.  If there is no picture of multiple items, then it is a machine of this type.

Both of the above scenarios exist in SL Gacha machines:  Some machines give different types of related items and others just give the same item, but in different colors - though in SL, even the 'one item type in many colors' will have pictures showing all of the colors.

Edited March 5, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Silent Mistwalker]

ok I'll spell it out.

First they invented the vending machine. 1888

Then they invented the gumball machine. 1907

Quote

Although vending machines for stick or block-shaped gum were seen as early as 1888, the first machines to carry actual gumballs were not seen until 1907

Then from the gumball machine came the prize vendors.

Quote

Prize vending machine

This type of machine sells a container that may contain a prize. Some such machines advertise the possible prizes that may be won. Examples include smart phones, holiday packages, and toys

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vending_machine#Prize_vending_machine

THEN Japan got in on the act. They'd already had vending machines for a long time so they developed their own machine for gachas. 

 

 

[FairreLilette]

21 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

ok I'll spell it out.

First they invented the vending machine. 1888

Then they invented the gumball machine. 1907

Then from the gumball machine came the prize vendors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vending_machine#Prize_vending_machine

THEN Japan got in on the act. They'd already had vending machines for a long time so they developed their own machine for gachas. 

 

 

If you Google Gashapon, some of the machines have pictures while others are just items in a capsule with no picture up top.  I looked at a close-up of some of the capsules and not all capsules are somewhat transparent, some capsules you cannot see through them what is inside.  But, still there is no clear one way to have a Gashapon machine, some have pictures, others don't so I don't see them quite as gumball machines except for some which have all the same like shoes and the rare may be the black or the brown.  I buy second-hand anyways.  I'm not a machine player.