Loot boxes now illegal in Belgium

[Bobbie Faulds]

Just an FYI for those that haven't been around that long. Gambling in SL was removed for 2 reasons. One was US laws changed and LL was going to have to start issuing 1099 IRS forms for all gambling money cashed out of SL. LL didn't want to have to deal with that paperwork. The other is that there were too many "casino" owner weren't paying off the beets and there were too many complaints. Since that was player v player, it got to be too much so between that and the paperwork, it was easier to just close it down. There was also the inworld bank collapse at the same time. It was a bit of a mess at that time.

[AyelaNewLife]

On 07/05/2018 at 10:40 AM, Bobbie Faulds said:

Just an FYI for those that haven't been around that long. Gambling in SL was removed for 2 reasons. One was US laws changed and LL was going to have to start issuing 1099 IRS forms for all gambling money cashed out of SL. LL didn't want to have to deal with that paperwork. The other is that there were too many "casino" owner weren't paying off the beets and there were too many complaints. Since that was player v player, it got to be too much so between that and the paperwork, it was easier to just close it down. There was also the inworld bank collapse at the same time. It was a bit of a mess at that time.

And this is why the push to formally classify gachas as gambling could easily result in their removal from SL. The moment US law sees them as nothing more than a sugar-coated fruit machine, they are gone. Either that or they start charging a dollar per spin, just to pay for the small army of accountants they would need to deal with that much paperwork.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

3 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

And this is why the push to formally classify gachas as gambling could easily result in their removal from SL. The moment US law sees them as nothing more than a sugar-coated fruit machine, they are gone. Either that or they start charging a dollar per spin, just to pay for the small army of accountants they would need to deal with that much paperwork.

Seeing as the gatcha machines outside every singe grocery store in the US aren't considered gambling, i dont see them making them like that in SL.

[AyelaNewLife]

50 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Seeing as the gatcha machines outside every singe grocery store in the US aren't considered gambling, i dont see them making them like that in SL.

Seeing that there is a bill to ban the sale of loot box / gacha games to anyone under the age of 21 - ie the minimum age to gamble - in Hawaii (House Bill 2686 and Senate Bill 3024), not to mention other bans or restrictions in several EU countries, with several more currently considering legislation, there is enough precedent to make it a reasonable possibility, at a minimum.

At the end of the day, your opinion on this is utterly irrelevant. My opinion on this is utterly irrelevant. The only people that matter are the lawyers and the lawmakers. If the day ever comes when CSGO skin crates and Overwatch lootboxes are considered gambling, those restrictions will almost certainly also apply to SL gacha machines. Until then, nothing needs to change.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

9 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Seeing that there is a bill to ban the sale of loot box / gacha games to anyone under the age of 21 - ie the minimum age to gamble - in Hawaii (House Bill 2686 and Senate Bill 3024), not to mention other bans or restrictions in several EU countries, with several more currently considering legislation, there is enough precedent to make it a reasonable possibility, at a minimum.

Did you happen to read that bill? It says nothing about gatchas..

"House Bill 2686 and Senate Bill 3024 propose to prevent the sale of any game with randomized rewards that players can purchase with real money to anyone younger than 21 years-old." 

Gatchas are not randomized rewards. You can not buy them with real money, you have to use L$. Which you can earn in SL. Loopholes abound. 

9 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

At the end of the day, your opinion on this is utterly irrelevant. My opinion on this is utterly irrelevant. 

On this we agree.

[Nalytha]

By that logic, loot boxes aren’t random. They have a limited number of items that can come out. 

[AyelaNewLife]

12 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Gatchas are not randomized rewards. You can not buy them with real money, you have to use L$. Which you can earn in SL. 

You cannot earn L$ from the game. You can only purchase it with real money, or receive it from other players that purchased it with real money (and yes, the premium stipend counts as a real money purchase). Real money -> premium currency -> object still counts as purchasing with real money; technically you do this with most online poker or betting sites, even if they put a dollar sign by your balance.

[Solar Legion]

41 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

You cannot earn L$ from the game. You can only purchase it with real money, or receive it from other players that purchased it with real money (and yes, the premium stipend counts as a real money purchase). Real money -> premium currency -> object still counts as purchasing with real money; technically you do this with most online poker or betting sites, even if they put a dollar sign by your balance.

Ahem - Linden Realms begs to differ on that one.

The point (that people seem to be utterly missing here) is that Gatchas are more akin to bubblegum/sticker/random prize machines found in many places in real life than they are to any actual gambling machine out there and certainly have far less in common with Loot Boxes within most video games (for those you must directly purchase a key from the game's market - often sold in bundles - before you can open said Box).

It is one thing to regulate gambling in such a manner as to give a fairer chance to the players (be it a casino goer or a video game player) and a whole other thing to attempt to legislate against gambling addiction.

This is about as absurd as the privacy law shenanigans elsewhere.

[Paul Hexem]

Just because it's absurd doesn't mean some politician won't try to make a law about it.

[AyelaNewLife]

Just now, Solar Legion said:

The point (that people seem to be utterly missing here) is that Gatchas are more akin to bubblegum/sticker/random prize machines found in many places in real life than they are to any actual gambling machine out there and certainly have far less in common with Loot Boxes within most video games (for those you must directly purchase a key from the game's market - often sold in bundles - before you can open said Box).

It is one thing to regulate gambling in such a manner as to give a fairer chance to the players (be it a casino goer or a video game player) and a whole other thing to attempt to legislate against gambling addiction.

How would you say SL gachas compares to, for example, PUBG/CSGO skin boxes? All three systems provide rewards that are purely cosmetic, offer no mechanical gameplay advantage, there is a method for each for translating real currency into rolls, and the proceeds of those rolls back into hard cash. One of them is the poster child for this push to regulate loot boxes, and another is a direct clone of that system. 

Also nothing about these new proposals legislate against gambling addiction. What they do is to bring one form of gambling addiction in line with the rest. There aren't any actual bans being suggested here, just common sense regulations that are honestly hard to argue against. No gambling for minors, for example. Requiring a license, taxation on the proceeds, a few regulations to ensure fairness (most SL gachas already publish rare drop rates); is any of that really an issue?

I'm also not saying what I think should happen, just what I think is in the process of happening. There's a key distinction. Personally, I'd slap a "no under 18s" sign on the side and leave it at that.

[Nalytha]

Not all loot boxes require keys. In some games, you simply purchase the box and open it. You exchange money for a chance at winning an item from a strict list of possibilities. Sounds like gatchas to me. 

A bubble gum machine is similar to loot boxes. Say the machine has five colors of candy. You exchange money and hope for the color you want. 

Why are loot boxes being scrutinized but not gum ball machines? I’m guessing because gum ball machines are not producing millions of dollars worth of revenue. And aren’t being traded or sold for profit. 

[Solar Legion]

They don't compare - period.

CSGO/PUBG/Insert MMO/MOBA/MOSA/Etc here Loot Boxes require you spend real life money to purchase keys to open them. That is on top of any other money sunk into said games - be it subscription fees, purchasing the software and/or combining the two as well as any other potential fees that may be added in.

Second Life Gatcha machines on the other hand require little more than the cost of activating the machine, using a currency that by itself has no actual value (you can argue otherwise but at the end of the day Linden Dollars cannot be used anywhere outside of Second Life) to dispense one of the items inside. Unlike Loot boxes which, contrary to what one prior poster stated earlier, draws from quite the large pool of items, the potential prizes for a Gatcha are more often than not listed right near the machine itself with some listing the chances of something uncommon/rare right on the poster and nearly all listing those chances in the Item Description box itself.

Their item pool is finite in possibility with chances quite clearly marked somewhere and paid for using a piddly amount of virtual currency - said currency obtainable from varied sources which include Linden Reams.

In short no user of Second Life has to pay a single real life cent to have a go at a Gatcha.

Ah and I see said poster has chimed in while I was typing this up ... And missed the entire point.

Ah well - it's pretty much all been covered in this response anyway and the reply mentioned does nothing more than grasp at straws.

Have a nice day!

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, AyelaNewLife said:

You cannot earn L$ from the game. You can only purchase it with real money, or receive it from other players that purchased it with real money (and yes, the premium stipend counts as a real money purchase). Real money -> premium currency -> object still counts as purchasing with real money; technically you do this with most online poker or betting sites, even if they put a dollar sign by your balance.

By the same logic, you personally are involved in a wide variety of illegal real-world activities because money from those activities enters the financial stream and will eventually make its way to you. 

[Nalytha]

4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

By the same logic, you personally are involved in a wide variety of illegal real-world activities because money from those activities enters the financial stream and will eventually make its way to you. 

Did I hear something about SL being used for laundering? I thought I heard something about that years and years ago. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 minutes ago, Nalytha said:

Did I hear something about SL being used for laundering? I thought I heard something about that years and years ago. 

Indeed. That makes all of us guilty of it, according to Ayela.

[AyelaNewLife]

9 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

CSGO/PUBG/Insert MMO/MOBA/MOSA/Etc here Loot Boxes require you spend real life money to purchase keys to open them. 

There are some boxes that do require paid keys, but most in the games mentioned do not, and most lootbox games don't have any key-boxes at all.

14 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Their item pool is finite in possibility with chances quite clearly marked somewhere and paid for using a piddly amount of virtual currency - said currency obtainable from varied sources which include Linden Reams.

In short no user of Second Life has to pay a single real life cent to have a go at a Gatcha.

How is that any different from Battle Points in PUBG? Oh yeah, there is one major difference - you can buy L$ with real money, but you cannot buy BP.

 

No user of PUBG, CSGO, BF2, or any of the thousands of mobile gacha games being churned out of Japan is required to pay a cent either. This is not a thing that makes SL gachas uniquely exempt from the proposed regulations. 

23 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

By the same logic, you personally are involved in a wide variety of illegal real-world activities because money from those activities enters the financial stream and will eventually make its way to you. 

How on earth did you stretch my words this far? 

If I go on any online poker website, take my free bonus signup chips and play with that, eventually winning a decent amount of money (or losing it all, it doesn't actually matter for this example), that is still gambling. Just because you personally didn't spend a penny on the virtual currency used for the poker matches (even if that currency uses a $ at a 1:1 ratio to actual US dollars), it is still gambling, and is still subject to the same regulations and restrictions as if I was playing poker hooked up to my credit card.

Would I be responsible if anyone playing on that virtual table then used that money to buy drugs, or anything illegal? Of course not. That's a ludicrous suggestion.

[Solar Legion]

Oh for ...

It's been laid out for you, repeatedly.

You can stop trying to find an angle wherein Loot Boxes and what amounts to a glorified gumball machine are somehow equal. They're not.

Again, have a nice day.

[AyelaNewLife]

8 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Oh for ...

It's been laid out for you, repeatedly.

You can stop trying to find an angle wherein Loot Boxes and what amounts to a glorified gumball machine are somehow equal. They're not.

Again, have a nice day.

I'm still waiting for you to come up with an actual difference between a loot box and a SL gacha.

Just because you say that the earth is flat over and over again, doesn't make it true.

Edit: I'm going to be straight up and say that this isn't going anywhere, neither of us are going to change our minds, we're just talking in circles, so it is probably best if we follow your suggestion and just drop the discussion.

Edited May 9, 2018 by AyelaNewLife

[Solar Legion]

3 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

I'm still waiting for you to come up with an actual difference between a loot box and a SL gacha.

Just because you say that the earth is flat over and over again, doesn't make it true.

I don't have to - it's been explained to you over and over again in this very thread.

Right back at you on the quip - just because you say apples and iron oxide are identical does not make it so.

[Theresa Tennyson]

31 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

How on earth did you stretch my words this far? 

If I go on any online poker website, take my free bonus signup chips and play with that, eventually winning a decent amount of money (or losing it all, it doesn't actually matter for this example), that is still gambling. Just because you personally didn't spend a penny on the virtual currency used for the poker matches (even if that currency uses a $ at a 1:1 ratio to actual US dollars), it is still gambling, and is still subject to the same regulations and restrictions as if I was playing poker hooked up to my credit card.

Would I be responsible if anyone playing on that virtual table then used that money to buy drugs, or anything illegal? Of course not. That's a ludicrous suggestion.

I didn't stretch anything. You did the stretching and I just hunted down the end and showed you were it was. If Lindens you receive without buying them are "bought" because somebody else bought them, then it works the same way for all types of trade.

The online poker example you just used doesn't work for you because, first of all it's the exact opposite of your point that "somebody bought the Lindens with real money," as those chips were spawned magically by the service, and secondly because it involves things that can only be used in those self-same gambling machines. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

31 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Just because you say that the earth is flat over and over again, doesn't make it true.

Indeed. However, the world of Second Life is flat as a pancake.

[AyelaNewLife]

3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I didn't stretch anything. You did the stretching and I just hunted down the end and showed you were it was. If Lindens you receive without buying them are "bought" because somebody else bought them, then it works the same way for all types of trade.

The online poker example you just used doesn't work for you because, first of all it's the exact opposite of your point that "somebody bought the Lindens with real money," as those chips were spawned magically by the service, and secondly because it involves things that can only be used in those self-same gambling machines. 

My fault for not expanding on that analogy properly. The starting chips are spawned in my the service, much in the same way that Linden Realms spawns in L$. The vast majority of the chips on that table were purchased directly with real money, in the same way that the vast majority of L$ in circulation were purchased directly with real money. With both systems there is a way to turn your winnings back into real money, albeit SL requires the middle step of selling the items on the marketplace.

The flat earth statement was harsh and uncalled for. I'm sorry about that.

[Codex Alpha]

On 5/2/2018 at 3:04 AM, Hintswen Guardian said:

I've always advocated for gachas to be removed under the policy regarding wagering Second Life. The policy starts with:

Gachas violate that first point as they rely on chance/random number generation to pick your prize. It's the second half that is debatable as I consider it a violation as it rewards you with an item of varying value which can be resold for L$. I would consider this as violation of the second point as the item you receive is a "thing of value" but this may be referring a real world physical thing of value not something within SL of value.

Later in the policy  it states the following:

That second sentence is that leads me to believe gachas should not be allowed as the item received can be converted to L$ by selling it, especially with the varying values of prizes. I also believe raffle systems should be removed for the same reasons.

Source: Linden Lab Official:Policy Regarding Wagering in Second Life

This is true.

Anyone with basic Google skills can go read up on the history of Gacha, and why it has been banned in several countries, yet still exists in many Western countries, and is considered a form of gambling.

You won't get much agreement on this part of the forums though, because many of the top sellers in SL use this sales tactic for massive *profits.

I've also argued that Gacha items contribute to the massive listing size and visual image spam of the marketplace, but LL seems content with the profits too, so that won't change anytime soon either.

I never buy Gacha because I don't have a packrat-collector's complex, nor do I like games of chance or gambling.

Edited May 27, 2018 by entity0x

[xPx]

First of all, not a single person here has the abilty to judge wether GATCHA or SL "SKILL" money machines (also known as nodevil, DEAL, etc..) are legit or not, none but the gambling commission of YOUR OWN COUNTRY.

 

If you have any doubt about SL GATCHA or SL "SKILL GAMING" beeing a gambling game, you can send a REPORT to the https://www.gamingcommission.be/opencms/opencms/jhksweb_fr/home/

gaming commission of Belgium, which is FAR MORE advanced than any other country since they already investigated deeply on Loot boxs in video games. (their email beeing

info@gamingcommission.be )

 

Iam in second life for now 9 years. In 9 years i can state without ANY hesitation that the games actually called SKILL GAMES arent SKILL GAMES since the basic generated numbers, and the joker amount are both RANDOM.

Moreover those numbers might be (needs confirmation, ofc i dont know the code of the actual money games,LL knows, tho..) for 99% of the actual machines, generated on SERVER SIDE (means that the LSL script is doing a request on the creator's server to receive a result) , which means that any creator who scripted their game like this,  can potentially TRICK the result via external SERVER.

The results of the games (win or lose) can also be datamined to have giant stats of players. targeting those who are addicted to make them lose or simply to spam them with constant money game advertising (since their are addicted they will be easy targets).

 Actually the machines "seem" mostly scripted to have good ratio at start, then the ratio keeps on decreasing during the weeks.

Ask any money player from second life they will alsways answer you "i used to win, then iam only losing actually, but this is too late iam addict", true or false? there is enough for LL to investigate deeply.

of course concerning this potential abuse i dont have proofs, but there is enough to be worried, and clearly more than enough for LL to investigate deeply in any money games that might have a SERVER BASED result (joker amount, random numbers, etc..) .

  LL might also check global stats, money accounts and transactions of the biggest SL players, and verify the stats and ratios win/loses, verify alts, verify bot use by game sim owners, and abuses, and so on. We did reports about gaming sim owner putting his bots into the random money giver of their gaming sim to make them win sometimes instead of players, we had no answer. Owners can also cheat by putting their alts/bots into contests, or just trying to win big POT instead of players. This is Sooo easy to trick money games system in SL once you are owner or creator...

Moreover the MAX BETS into a single money game raised. back in the past it was VERY RARE to find a gaming machine with a bet more than 50k L$, nowadays we see 100-400k EASILY. This can litterally ruin people in real life. Some people that are forbidden from gaming in their country migh find ways to money game in SL................

To my own point of view the new skill gaming policy from 2014 is a total fail.

Instead of cleaning the biggest game sims owners and games creators cheaters from SL , you gave them monopoly, some of them even coming back with alts (well people migh have surprise, just read the allowed skill games and their creators); We are fighting for YEARS to make the abusers banned and they are still there, iam really sorry to state this.

Moreover EVERY CUSTOMER THAT BOUGH ANY GAMING DEVICE IN PAST HAD THEIR GAMING DEVICE DEACTIVATED IN 2014 (via the SLYSENCE DeACTIVATION) which means that you made lost hundred thousands dollars to many thousands SL customers that bought those games in SL in past. Most of those Sl customers had invested many thousand dollars in Sl money games, you just deactivated them in a second.

 

 You dont protect your customers from addiction, you dont protect money players from othert countries than USA. (and usa just since 2014...???????)

 

I know someone that lost up to 60.000euros in 3 years in SL money games. What did you do to avoid money games addiction. Nothing. My sl ex partner, same she lost all rl money due to gambling addiction in sl and had RL debts. Notice than the ONLY time she earnt like 300k L$ in machines LL bothered her to avoid to make her cashout (they slowered a regular cashout to the MAX stating they would need investigate, and messed with her until she gives up and go "suicide " her earning by going to lose the 300ù L$ in the gaming sims.

 

 

Everything stated previously can apply to gatcha. Gatcha scripts can be tricked, no one has any ratio about rares/common, this can lead to scams.

 

The problem isnt the gambling/skill gaming and loot opening/gatcha "itself". The main problem is the ABUSE. As example : https://www.pcgamer.com/ftc-sternly-warns-csgo-gambling-fraudsters-not-to-do-it-again/

CSGO gambling sites, that permitted CSGo players (mostly little kids) to go gamble gladly their skin and money, those sites ofc using steam API.... Do you have any idea how far a simple gambling skin site can scam people? I met skin gamblers in csgo, one lost 2.500 dollars, another 30.000 dollars...

 

In Sl, concerning gatchas and "skill games" there are still MANY ways for evil people to scam their victims and ruin them.

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by xPx

[Callum Meriman]

11 hours ago, xPx said:

In Sl, concerning gatchas and "skill games" there are still MANY ways for evil people to scam their victims and ruin them.

There is a lot to be said for personal responsibility. If one allows someone to scam you, then it's one's own fault and they have the power to learn, grow and stop.

We really need to stop making laws to protect stupidity.