Loot boxes now illegal in Belgium

[Solar Legion]

We can go back and forth over this until the Heat Death of the Universe and none of our opinions on the matter will mean a single blasted thing.

Until Linden Lab's legal team advises them otherwise, Gatcha machines will remain in Second Life.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

We can go back and forth over this until the Heat Death of the Universe and none of our opinions on the matter will mean a single blasted thing.

Until Linden Lab's legal team advises them otherwise, Gatcha machines will remain in Second Life.

Yep, this about sums it up.  Like pretty much anything else in SL that someone doesn't like, it is all about laws and how the legal folks interpret them.  That is what will determine whether or not Gatchas stay in SL and whether or not they are open to all or end up with some restrictions.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

11 hours ago, Nalytha said:

You pay a gatcha machine in a currency worth real money. You get an item worth real money. You are gambling that what you get will be worth more than what you put in (at least those who want to resell). 

Not even close.. LL has deemed in their ToS. 
"Except as set forth above or in any Additional Terms, purchases of Linden Content (including but not limited to Usage Subscriptions, Virtual Tender, and/or other Virtual Goods and Services) are final, non-refundable, have no monetary value (i.e. are not a cash account or equivalent) and are purchases of only a limited, non-exclusive, revocable, non-assignable, personal, and non-transferable license to use content Inworld, even if they come with a durational term (e.g. a monthly subscription). "

That means they are not worth any real money, legally speaking. 

3 hours ago, Hintswen Guardian said:

No lose sploders use RNG to determine prizes and they are not allowed due to the policy.

Sploders pay out a random amount. Gatcha items are all the same cost in one machine. The actual in world value is only what someone is willing to pay for it and is not set by the creator. Going by your standards buying a classic fully restored 1969 Chevy Camaro for more than the sticker cost in 1969 of $3600 USD is gambling. 

3 hours ago, Hintswen Guardian said:

This is exactly why I believe all gachas and raffle systems should not be allowed.

And you would be wrong.. LL has not banned them or lumped them into the gambling areas. 

[Nalytha]

I’m not going to go digging, but if you really want to you could see if games like CSGO have similar language, Drake. TOS or not, both of these have items that have cash value to the users.

edit: why would you say “not even close”? To insinuate items in SL have no cash worth is the most ludicrous thing I will probably read all day. What the heck are creators selling their content for?

Edited May 3, 2018 by Nalytha

[AyelaNewLife]

What is truly ludicrous is the people trying to claim that a gacha and a lootbox are different. It's literally the same thing. Any laws aimed at clarifying lootboxes as a form of gambling will affect SL gachas too.

I imagine LL will just wait and see what the larger publishers do with lootboxes in countries that do classify them as gambling before making any change. It's easier to let those with money to burn fight it in the courts for them.

[Magnek Fang]

I think we are all missing one key thing here:

Gatchas in Second Life are ENTIRELY user-created. LL has nothing to do with them, as we all know how hands-off they are with creators. They are NOT a innate part of the game. Hell, I doubt the lawmakers have even HEARD of Second Life.

The Belgium law was made to deal with AAA DEVELOPERS who had let the lootbox thing get this bad in the first place, the guys who tied in-game progress with thier lootboxes until the outcry grew big enough that they backtracked. The EAs and Activisions, those kind of game companies.

Can we stop panicking now?

[Fionalein]

7 minutes ago, Magnek Fang said:

The Belgium law was made to deal with AAA DEVELOPERS who had let the lootbox thing get this bad in the first place, the guys who tied in-game progress with thier lootboxes until the outcry grew big enough that they backtracked. The EAs and Activisions, those kind of game companies.

Ever wondered why Lady Justice has a veil in front of her eyes? Those laws do not only apply to some special cases...

[Nalytha]

Google 'Second Life gambling" and you will find some interesting stuff. Including this. 2007 article

If LL felt they might be in trouble, legally, my guess is they wouldn't find this the hill worth dying on. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Nalytha

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, AyelaNewLife said:

What is truly ludicrous is the people trying to claim that a gacha and a lootbox are different. It's literally the same thing. Any laws aimed at clarifying lootboxes as a form of gambling will affect SL gachas too.

I imagine LL will just wait and see what the larger publishers do with lootboxes in countries that do classify them as gambling before making any change. It's easier to let those with money to burn fight it in the courts for them.

How are they the same? How does getting a super rare dress in SL improve you chances of winning over everyone else? Oh wait, there is no win in SL. There is no objective in SL. Its all up to the user. You can go through SL without ever buying a single thing from another user and end up a millionaire.. Make your own, home, clothing, hair, eyes, skin, everything. Pay for premium and rent land from LL, put a store on it and enjoy. Or, just wander for free, never spending a dime. 

Gatchas and lootboxes have nothing in common. Whats next, a ban on things sold at events because some people couldnt get in to buy them? SMH.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Nalytha said:

I’m not going to go digging, but if you really want to you could see if games like CSGO have similar language, Drake. TOS or not, both of these have items that have cash value to the users.

edit: why would you say “not even close”? To insinuate items in SL have no cash worth is the most ludicrous thing I will probably read all day. What the heck are creators selling their content for?

They only have cash value because LL allows people to cash out. Also, what is the cash value of a rare blueberry dress from a specific machine?

Whats that, it depends on the person reselling it? Wait, the value is determined by the reseller and not the actual creator? How is that in any way LL's responsibility? I have seen rare items on the MP for tens of thousands of $L. That is insanity at its finest. People willing to pay 500 times the cost rather than take the chance of playing the machine.. 

[Fionalein]

3 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

That is insanity at its finest. People willing to pay 500 times the cost rather than take the chance of playing the machine.. 

Those "insanes"  call it math 

[AyelaNewLife]

18 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

How are they the same? How does getting a super rare dress in SL improve you chances of winning over everyone else? Oh wait, there is no win in SL. There is no objective in SL. Its all up to the user. You can go through SL without ever buying a single thing from another user and end up a millionaire.. Make your own, home, clothing, hair, eyes, skin, everything. Pay for premium and rent land from LL, put a store on it and enjoy. Or, just wander for free, never spending a dime. 

Gatchas and lootboxes have nothing in common. Whats next, a ban on things sold at events because some people couldnt get in to buy them? SMH.

This distinction is one of your own making, and not actually relevant to whether or not something is a lootbox or not. A lootbox does not have to result in a Pay2Win feature for it to be a lootbox. CSGO is the perfect example of this; CSGO skin boxes are the high-profile examples at the forefront of the controversy. How is a dress any different to a CSGO skin? Both are purely cosmetic items, that have no direct influence on your chances of "winning", and yet it would be utterly ludicrous to try and claim that CSGO lootboxes are not lootboxes. That is what you are trying to do, and it is ludicrous.

[AyelaNewLife]

1 hour ago, Magnek Fang said:

I think we are all missing one key thing here:

Gatchas in Second Life are ENTIRELY user-created. LL has nothing to do with them, as we all know how hands-off they are with creators. They are NOT a innate part of the game.

Irrelevant. The pre-skill gaming region casinos were also entirely user-created, LL had nothing to do with them, and they still pulled them all overnight to avoid potential litigation. LL are indeed hands-off with creators, up until the point where they are at risk of taking legal responsibility for breaking the law. That's why you can get a literal HUD for rape, no questions asked, and yet the sight of a teenage avatar in an adult region is enough to make landowners twitch.

If (and we are not yet at that stage) gachas/lootboxes are ever considered gambling by either American federal or Californian state law, LL will forcibly remove all gachas or potentially just confine them to adult regions. You're correct in that Second Life is a small fry compared to some out there (although not insignificant, due to the scale of the transferable economy), and we'll all see the likes of CSGO, Overwatch et al affected first, but we're not going to get a special exemption from the law because we say please.

[Nalytha]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

How are they the same? How does getting a super rare dress in SL improve you chances of winning over everyone else? Oh wait, there is no win in SL. There is no objective in SL. Its all up to the user. You can go through SL without ever buying a single thing from another user and end up a millionaire.. Make your own, home, clothing, hair, eyes, skin, everything. Pay for premium and rent land from LL, put a store on it and enjoy. Or, just wander for free, never spending a dime. 

Gatchas and lootboxes have nothing in common. Whats next, a ban on things sold at events because some people couldnt get in to buy them? SMH.

In CSGO and similar games, millions of dollars are spent gambling for 'skins' -- things that make your weapon look cool and do absolutely nothing else. 

The value is up to the seller? True. Same in CSGO and the gambling hammer is coming down hard on games like that. 

I speak from close knowledge on CSGO, as my husband has spent thousands trading, gambling, and selling skins -- things that do nothing but change the appearance of your weapon. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Nalytha

[Hintswen Guardian]

7 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Sploders pay out a random amount. Gatcha items are all the same cost in one machine. The actual in world value is only what someone is willing to pay for it and is not set by the creator. Going by your standards buying a classic fully restored 1969 Chevy Camaro for more than the sticker cost in 1969 of $3600 USD is gambling. 

Sploders pay a random amount, gachas give you a prize worth a varying amount. Buying the Chevy in your example is completly ddifferent as you know exactly what you are buying before you pay for it. You aren't paying $3600USD and getting a random car out of a list of multiple different cars worth different values.

7 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

And you would be wrong.. LL has not banned them or lumped them into the gambling areas. 

I never said they did, I just stated what I believe should be done.

3 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

How are they the same? How does getting a super rare dress in SL improve you chances of winning over everyone else? Oh wait, there is no win in SL.

What does this have to do with anything? How does a hat with an effect help you win in Team Fortress 2? How does a weapon skin help you win in CS:GO? They don''t but they are still items gained from lootboxes worth varying values determined by users. This is why gachas are just like lootboxes in other games.

[Nalytha]

3 minutes ago, Hintswen Guardian said:

What does this have to do with anything? How does a hat with an effect help you win in Team Fortress 2? How does a weapon skin help you win in CS:GO? They don''t but they are still items gained from lootboxes worth varying values determined by users. This is why gachas are just like lootboxes in other games.

I feel like some people are taking this as an attack on something they cherish. That, or they just love to be argumentative about everything. On some level, some of us are just arguing semantics and laws/official rules. 

Can we just bring it down to the most simple, common sense level? When you put money in a machine with the hopes of getting one out of a handful of possible items, that is gambling. That's taking a risk of chance. If you donate money to your school event in exchange for raffle tickets, that's gambling too. The guy who blows his rent at the casino and the kid who gambles in loot boxes -- both of them are gambling. 

Now that we have that out of the way ... I don't care one way or the other if gatchas are banned from Second Life. I just think this discussion on the definition of loot boxes and gambling is fascinating. It's one more example of how Second Life users want to insulate themselves from the rest of the gaming community while desperately needing that community to embrace Second Life (see outreach to Twitch Streamers by LL). Y'all WANT users to come here. The best target audience for growth is the gaming community itself. 

 

 

[Fionalein]

30 minutes ago, Nalytha said:

Can we just bring it down to the most simple, common sense level? When you put money in a machine with the hopes of getting one out of a handful of possible items, that is gambling. That's taking a risk of chance. If you donate money to your school event in exchange for raffle tickets, that's gambling too. The guy who blows his rent at the casino and the kid who gambles in loot boxes -- both of them are gambling. 

No idea but Richard Garfield also didn't get it either... he wrote a big rant on how lootboxes ruined games... you know, THE Richard Garfield, no one else than the creator of the Magic trading card game... the reactions on his rant were fun to read  highly recommendable read...

Edited May 3, 2018 by Fionalein

[Drake1 Nightfire]

15 hours ago, Nalytha said:

Can we just bring it down to the most simple, common sense level? When you put money in a machine with the hopes of getting one out of a handful of possible items, that is gambling. That's taking a risk of chance. If you donate money to your school event in exchange for raffle tickets, that's gambling too. The guy who blows his rent at the casino and the kid who gambles in loot boxes -- both of them are gambling. 
 

They better get rid of those quarter candy and toy machines at the grocery store and amusement parks then. Also better add in the claw grab games.. 

[Spin Barbosa]

6 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

They better get rid of those quarter candy and toy machines at the grocery store and amusement parks then. Also better add in the claw grab games.. 

Some jurisdictions actually do classify those claw grab games as gambling, and regulate them as such. I looked it up on another thread, and was a bit surprised when I found this out.

[Nalytha]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

They better get rid of those quarter candy and toy machines at the grocery store and amusement parks then. Also better add in the claw grab games.. 

Yeah... you gamble on what candy or what toy you will get. How hard is this to understand?

Just because something is gambling doesn’t mean it needs to be regulated. Where have I ever said gatchas need to be banned? 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Nalytha

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Nalytha said:

Yeah... you gamble on what candy or what toy you will get. How hard is this to understand?

Just because something is gambling doesn’t mean it needs to be regulated. Where have I ever said gatchas need to be banned? 

If you always get a prize that has at least the value you spent, it isnt gambling. There is zero chance of winning nothing from a gatcha, unless the machine breaks. We need to stop regulating fun.. 

[Fionalein]

1 minute ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

We need to stop regulating fun.. 

One of the reasons they regulated it was the addictiveness of the fun. Not only Netherlands and Belgium, China too... China just didn't forbid them but instead chose to apply gambling laws to lootboxes.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

8 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

One of the reasons they regulated it was the addictiveness of the fun. Not only Netherlands and Belgium, China too... China just didn't forbid them but instead chose to apply gambling laws to lootboxes.

Perhaps adults need to start taking responsibility for their own actions. 

[Nalytha]

2 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Perhaps adults need to start taking responsibility for their own actions. 

There's a couple of reasons why video game gambling is a current hot topic. It's not just about adults taking responsibility. You can say that about any law... maybe we should live in anarchy and people should take personal responsibility? 

1. Things like this enable gambling addiction. 

2. In cases where a profit can be made, it isn't being taxed. However, SL is a bit different since you do pay taxes I believe after a certain amount on cash out. 

3. One of the biggest hot topic discussions is that the creator of the 'loot box' is not transparent about the odds of winning any given item. This totally applies to gatchas. You can call it rare. What is 'rare'? 5% win rate, .1% win rate? I play another game where people have done that math and suggested to get some rare items in the loot boxes, you'd have to spend hundreds most likely because it is THAT rare. Seriously, check youtube or various forums. You will see gamers who invest money simply to find out the odds of winning various items in the loot boxes. People make excel sheets and concrete data on this stuff. And this is why some countries are pushing for creators to release the drop rates of the items. Because it's downright deceitful to make people believe they have a fair chance at a rare but then it turns out the rare rate is like .01%. In that case, the company is using this as a system to bilk more money out of the consumer. 

4. You can argue children shouldn't be playing games or parents need to watch over them, but it's a fact that these activities affect children. 

All of these reasons said (and there are more if you care to look up the topic), I'm still not advocating gatchas be banned. If anything, my stance is that I agree that drop rates need to be public. People deserve to know the chances of winning a particular item so that they can factor that into whether they want to spend the money. We do this with the Lottery system. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Nalytha said:

There's a couple of reasons why video game gambling is a current hot topic. It's not just about adults taking responsibility. You can say that about any law... maybe we should live in anarchy and people should take personal responsibility? 

1. Things like this enable gambling addiction. 

Personal responsibility. 

2 hours ago, Nalytha said:

2. In cases where a profit can be made, it isn't being taxed. However, SL is a bit different since you do pay taxes I believe after a certain amount on cash out. 

Then it doesnt apply to SL. Nor should it.

2 hours ago, Nalytha said:

3. One of the biggest hot topic discussions is that the creator of the 'loot box' is not transparent about the odds of winning any given item. This totally applies to gatchas. You can call it rare. What is 'rare'? 5% win rate, .1% win rate? I play another game where people have done that math and suggested to get some rare items in the loot boxes, you'd have to spend hundreds most likely because it is THAT rare. Seriously, check youtube or various forums. You will see gamers who invest money simply to find out the odds of winning various items in the loot boxes. People make excel sheets and concrete data on this stuff. And this is why some countries are pushing for creators to release the drop rates of the items. Because it's downright deceitful to make people believe they have a fair chance at a rare but then it turns out the rare rate is like .01%. In that case, the company is using this as a system to bilk more money out of the consumer. 

I got nothing here...

2 hours ago, Nalytha said:

4. You can argue children shouldn't be playing games or parents need to watch over them, but it's a fact that these activities affect children. 

Not in SL they dont. And in the case of video games they are paying for it somehow, probably mom or dads card.. Again, Personal (in the case Parental) responsibility. 

2 hours ago, Nalytha said:

All of these reasons said (and there are more if you care to look up the topic), I'm still not advocating gatchas be banned. If anything, my stance is that I agree that drop rates need to be public. People deserve to know the chances of winning a particular item so that they can factor that into whether they want to spend the money. We do this with the Lottery system. 

They are, hover text shows the drop rate of a gatcha. Plus if you edit one the description line shows what percentage is used. 

 

50 is the cost 20 is the rare percentage.. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Drake1 Nightfire