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Alexa Linden

Bakes on Mesh Feedback Thread

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6 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

The problem is anyone who has purchased the system layer and is wearing it can pull the UUID of the single texture and not the full stack. All they have to do, if they really want to get the UUID to pass it along to friends or whomever, is wear the one layer and pull the report from the developer menu. The final bake solution is only helpful for those using those special viewers to scan avatars and pull UUIDs from those avatars. 

The wide scale passing off of UUIDs between friends for free almost bothers me more than the issue of a copybotter getting the info. At least with a copybotter my work has not lost all value, and I have some recourse through DMCA and the Lab to stop the botter. How would Linden Lab address the problem of a large group of people who are passing UUIDs?

You don't need to use a special viewer to get the UUID's or actual texture information with other ways now. You can do it with many older legitimate viewers and widely-available third-party software.

I've looked at the "report" method - it's possible, but it's not the easiest way of doing things, to be honest.

Back when sharing ripped skins was a big problem the skin was the most expensive thing most people owned, and there were only a handful of really good skin makers. Once you had a skin you were all set.

Now, there are many skin makers offering good products at a wide range of price points, and for those using appliers, they're only useful for those using mesh avatars and heads that cost three to five times the price of an average skin and can't be easily copied illegally. That's only looking at skins - makeup and clothing is much cheaper still. The ripped items will need to be built into an applier and won't have a lot of the ease-of-use functions of a legitimate copy. To be blunt, ripping most textures just isn't worth the trouble.

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9 hours ago, Fem Darcy said:

With all my respect, I guess big post don't get read. So I will make it clear. Current development of BOM won't change anything in that way because it's so easy to rip off textures that good creators won't use it or pack their items anymore that way for safety and will move to Appliers if they weren't using it. Appliers with decent scripting, because any applier that doesn't encrypt the UUID when sending it to the object is dumb. There are plenty of real appliers that even if the message gets intercepted still needs to be decoded. So way safer than BOM for average users.

Till BOM a skin or tattoo layer was safer than the average applier. BOM just make it the more easy to rip option available. And unfair to any that has ever published skins or tattoos till date thinking they would be safe.

Apologies for those that in fact read. But I wanted this point to be displayed clear to the mainstream posters in this thread.

The problem isn't sending the UUID from the applier to the body; it's sending the texture information to anyone seeing the body after the texture has been applied. The UUID of a texture on an object can be read in a number of ways. Basically, appliers are the equivalent of sending a package to someone in an armored car with an armed guard and then leaving it on their porch.

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6 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Then maybe you need to verify this with a repro and file a JIRA .. and not discuss it on the public forums.

No need to verify this it's public knowledge. Not talking about it here on the forums is the equivalent of hiding your head in the sand. We can pretend it's not easy to do but the knowledge is out there already. Back in the early Omega days this information was broadcast across many blogs. It's how I learned about it and then when I inquired about it, I found out I was one of the last to find it out. 

Edited by Blush Bravin
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1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The problem isn't sending the UUID from the applier to the body; it's sending the texture information to anyone seeing the body after the texture has been applied. The UUID of a texture on an object can be read in a number of ways. Basically, appliers are the equivalent of sending a package to someone in an armored car with an armed guard and then leaving it on their porch.

From what I understand of what Vir said, after the stack of textures is baked you won't be able to read the individual UUID numbers of the textures used to comprise the bake. So in that regard the new system seems to be safer. The problem is anyone with a system layer can wear it by itself and then get the UUID unless the system somehow encrypts the UUID so that it can't be read.

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"Public Knowledge" does not equate to an actionable reproduction that the Lab can investigate and correct.

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46 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

"Public Knowledge" does not equate to an actionable reproduction that the Lab can investigate and correct.

Coffee, the Lab is very much aware of the situation. I spoke directly to Jessica Lyon about it years ago as well. It's part of every viewer that lets residents access the developer menu. It's not a bug, it's not an exploit. It is the developer menu working as designed by the lab.

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1 hour ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I don't really see what the obsession with UUIDs is when ripping textures would be much more convenient for the perp.

Did you read the whole thread? Were you around when the Omega system first appeared on the grid? In case you weren't, a short run down: There was a whole line of thought going around that because someone had system clothing they then had the right to use the UUIDs (obtained from the developer menu) of the clothing layers they owned to make appliers. Whether that line of thought was correct or not is not the issue. The problem was that those UUIDs got passed between friends and then even wider circles. It's one thing to have to deal with copybotters and ripping of textures using third party software. We all know that happens and honestly there's not much we can do about it except to file DMCAs. But it's another situation when people have easy access to UUID numbers inside the viewer itself and then begin passing those UUIDs around. 

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4 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

Did you read the whole thread? Were you around when the Omega system first appeared on the grid? In case you weren't, a short run down: There was a whole line of thought going around that because someone had system clothing they then had the right to use the UUIDs (obtained from the developer menu) of the clothing layers they owned to make appliers. Whether that line of thought was correct or not is not the issue. The problem was that those UUIDs got passed between friends and then even wider circles. It's one thing to have to deal with copybotters and ripping of textures using third party software. We all know that happens and honestly there's not much we can do about it except to file DMCAs. But it's another situation when people have easy access to UUID numbers inside the viewer itself and then begin passing those UUIDs around. 

I've been making content in SL for what, 13 years now? This is not news.

This is the same discussions we had when libopenmetaverse came out, when the client was opensourced, and when the first clients modified to bypass permissions came to be.

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So far, i see good news and not so good news.

As a furry avatar maker, i will have access to every furry body skin, ever made, for the core sl body.   That is to say, my customers would.

The down side is I'm not seeing an option to bake on the left arm/right arm separate.  This wouldn't require a uv change, just the option to bake the upper_body map twice.

-WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE CODING- it appears this could be picked up the same way the hair mapping does, -I'M MOST LIKELY WRONG ABOUT THAT-

This assuredly comes from the fact that they never gave the left and right arms a separate material, let alone a distinct uv map.

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3 hours ago, Shnurui Troughton said:

So far, i see good news and not so good news.

As a furry avatar maker, i will have access to every furry body skin, ever made, for the core sl body.   That is to say, my customers would.

The down side is I'm not seeing an option to bake on the left arm/right arm separate.  This wouldn't require a uv change, just the option to bake the upper_body map twice.

-WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE CODING- it appears this could be picked up the same way the hair mapping does, -I'M MOST LIKELY WRONG ABOUT THAT-

This assuredly comes from the fact that they never gave the left and right arms a separate material, let alone a distinct uv map.

I doubt they are planning on giving us "more" baked textures per avatar.

An alternative solution could be, for arm differenciation, to use a "non" bake on mesh texture for the second arm.

But that would negate the benefits of piggybacking on legacy texture layers.

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7 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I've been making content in SL for what, 13 years now? This is not news.

This is the same discussions we had when libopenmetaverse came out, when the client was opensourced, and when the first clients modified to bypass permissions came to be.

What I am addressing has a very simple fix, which from the responses I've gotten back from Lindens on my JIRA is in the works. While it's impossible to stop all the leaks, why question the validity of fixing the ones we can? 

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4 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

What I am addressing has a very simple fix, which from the responses I've gotten back from Lindens on my JIRA is in the works. While it's impossible to stop all the leaks, why question the validity of fixing the ones we can? 

You seem to be overly concerned about what paying customers would do with your product. As I said those who don't intent to pay in the first place aren't gonna be stopped by this fix, so the people this will penalize are customers trying to exercise fair use.

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2 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I doubt they are planning on giving us "more" baked textures per avatar.

An alternative solution could be, for arm differenciation, to use a "non" bake on mesh texture for the second arm.

But that would negate the benefits of piggybacking on legacy texture layers.

Not having been able to figure out how to go about acquiring the bakes on preview system, I'm not sure, but isn't there layer options in lsl?  base, alpha, shiny?  could have alt textures apply to the second of the three?

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1 hour ago, Shnurui Troughton said:

Not having been able to figure out how to go about acquiring the bakes on preview system, I'm not sure, but isn't there layer options in lsl?  base, alpha, shiny?  could have alt textures apply to the second of the three?

It's just that if you use bake on mesh and want to match the linden avatar UV layout, the left and right arms are sharing the same piece of the texture. It's obviously not a problem if you don't plan on using the linden avatar layout but many understandably want to in order to maximize compatibility between bodies. Under this constraint getting a "second" arm would require an extra texture.

And no LSL doesn't provide any form of texture layering,  normal and specular maps are controlling different aspects of the object shader.

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2 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

You seem to be overly concerned about what paying customers would do with your product. As I said those who don't intent to pay in the first place aren't gonna be stopped by this fix, so the people this will penalize are customers trying to exercise fair use.

The sharing of UUID numbers of products you've bought with your friends and their friends and so on and so on is in no way fair use.  You seem to want to give anyone who rips a UUID and then passes it around to whomever wants it a free pass at the creators' expense. I simply want a loophole in the official Linden Lab viewer closed.

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31 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

The sharing of UUID numbers of products you've bought with your friends and their friends and so on and so on is in no way fair use.  You seem to want to give anyone who rips a UUID and then passes it around to whomever wants it a free pass at the creators' expense. I simply want a loophole in the official Linden Lab viewer closed.

Don't try to make me say something I didn't.

And as a creator this affects me just as well as it affects you. But I'd rather put my customers first rather than assuming them to be thieves.

Personal use (no sharing, no reselling) of textures you acquired legally from their creator is well within the scope of fair use.

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3 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Personal use (no sharing, no reselling) of textures you acquired legally from their creator is well within the scope of fair use.

To acquire a texture legally the creator would have to give you the texture or give you the UUID included with the purchase. To obtain it through a report that nullifies the permissions set on that texture is an exploit of the viewer.

Edited by Blush Bravin

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It's perfectly legal to copy a CD or DVD that you purchased (even if it used to be difficult).

It's also legal to microwave it, shred it, play it in reverse, or record yourself playing the kazoo over it!

What IS a violation of the license you where granted, is to share or sell copies of it or anything that contains it in part or in its entirety.

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3 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

It's perfectly legal to copy a CD or DVD that you purchased (even if it used to be difficult).

It's also legal to microwave it, shred it, play it in reverse, or record yourself playing the kazoo over it!

What IS a violation of the license you where granted, is to share or sell copies of it or anything that contains it in part or in its entirety.

In most countries, not all are as liberal. Germany had the most silly ruling on it: We were not allowed to circumvent "effective" DRM mechanisms,... Duh, if I can still copy it, it isn't effective anymore, right? Don't they teach logics in law school anymore... ?

Edited by Fionalein

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18 hours ago, Fionalein said:

In most countries, not all are as liberal. Germany had the most silly ruling on it: We were not allowed to circumvent "effective" DRM mechanisms,... Duh, if I can still copy it, it isn't effective anymore, right? Don't they teach logics in law school anymore... ?

Yeah I recall it took quite a bit of fighting to even rule on the legality of PLAYING dvds with lets say VideoLAN, (an opensource non-dvd-licensed player).

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DRM and purchases:

In America  OTA broadcasts can be recorded for playback.

CD/DVD/DVR may be duplicated for private use to protect the original copy, and only to protect the original copy.

Coats, and all clothing, may be mixed and matched.<<<<<

Skins are considered CLOTHING.

Clothing skins are considered CLOTHING.

Bakes on removes the need for UUID copying for designers to use xyz texture.

There is no copyright violation if there is no copying.

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