Linden Lab

Project Bento Feedback Thread

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Is there any possibility that genitalia will be included? Whether one likes it or not, sexual expression forms a significant chunk of Second Life for many people. Personally, I would like to see the mesh rigged to provide options for male and female genitalia, and be independent of the main body physionomy selection so that those who identify as intersex can shape their avatar to suit themselves.

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Genitalia is presently handled fantastically by mesh attachment points ~  I don't think an extra bone is really needed for your "bone".

Edit: we really need an FBX file or something of the new skeleton~  Someone forgot to post it / append it in the information thread.

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Feature Request: I want to be able to upload a Project Bento skeleton rigged mesh "avatar", and then rez it out in-world, drop in a script/animation, and watch the mesh object play the animation before my eyes.

This feature would enable more realistic creatures that are far less taxing on the viewer/land/etc.

I know this is not exactly the place to request such features but it's very relevant. If someone from Linden Lab is reading this - please let us have "non-avatar, skeleton rigged objects in-world that can be animated via script". It would allow content creators to make a product that people would actually join second life to use. This is good for everyone.

The current trick to animating mesh is showing/hiding texture faces, this means that the object is sometimes 8-16x the amount of geometry it needs to be.

Playing around with the show/hide method, I found it often slowed my framerate to a crawl.

The alternative is using sculpts, or a sculpt-mesh hybrid, and positioning/rotating each object within the linkset as fast as you possibly can to make it look like it's smoothly animated, but often comes out jagged and rough.

Anyway, thanks for reading.

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After having browsed the various notes and wikis regarding the new changes, here are my initial thoughts:

 

- I wholeheartedly disagree with the decision to block animation of bone location - not only because very visually interesting animations can be achieved by moving a bone away from and back to its original location, but also because of the SEVERE problems with sorting mesh joints. Especially when switching from one mesh avatar with joint offsets to another mesh avatar with different joint offsets, the probability of seeing deformations has always been very high. More importantly, these deformations can be simultaneously seen by one user and not seen by another. To get around this, we avatar creators have put animated deformers inside our avatars which will play an animation that puts our bone joints where they should be when the avatar is worn, and play an animation putting the bones back in the default position when it is taken off. This way, even when SL fails to load the correct joint positions, the end user does not experience these unsettling deformations, and all users in the region will see that user exactly the same way. While my hope would be that you made absolutely sure to fix this problem before restricting the animation of joint location, I would still feel far better if you would re-enable it on release so I can continue to ensure a stable viewing experience for my customers.

 

- I think you've made good decisions with your bone selections, but I would like to request an additional neck bone for nonhuman avatar makers. I am presently working on one such avatar that uses two neck bones and a rigged face by locking the positions of the avatar shoulders to mTorso instead of mChest. If I am no longer able to animate bone location, I will have to choose between a fluidly animating horse neck or an animated face, and I hate to lose functionality in what is supposed to be an improved feature.

 

- I am absolutely giddy that the joint limit on a single animation has been raised from 32 to 106. Thank you.

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Please consider this comment as written by an uneducated cavewoman with specific needs.

I love my mesh body, but have to go classic when I race sailboats to minimize scripts. Is there a way to craft a Bento (or whatever) avatar that provides the beauty of  mesh bodies and heads along with the utility of a classic avatar? Because, you know, it's important for sailors to be as beautiful as their yachts. *cue smiley face*

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Oz Linden wrote:

 

Now.


Why was this development done behind closed doors, IN SECRET? What was the point of keeping it secret? Was it to help your friends again Oz? Cause that is what it looks like. Does LL not understand that developers and creators need to work together? Again tho, why was this kept secret. Is this some kind of new innovation, adding bones to skeletons? Was someone else going to steal the idea?

I will never understand the Lab.

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I predict the answer will be 'Too many cooks in the kitchen', etc. Which I have no problem with. I am glad we have something to work with, even if I am dismayed that some functionality is hobbled for the moment. the important thing is what direction things go in moving forward. Keep in mind this a beta prior to a release candidate, prior to full blown mainstream release.

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If scripts cause lags when using physical vehicles you should contact the body creator for a low lag optimization on script. The avatar having more bones have nothing to do with you getting lag. Asides of that, SL isnt really designed with that purpose of moving between SIMs with vehicles as that have been always problematic.

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I would personally love to see a neck attachment point / bone structure so that things like collars and necklaces can work a bit more seamlessly. They are particularly annoying as they either follow the head or the body but cannot follow both unless they are rigged mesh which can be a bit problematic at times if you want to be able to resize or anything. Making a point that has movement based on other factors to keep a necklace collar etc in place properly when head / body movement happens a bit would be very nice. As the neck does actually move with animations and stuff but a lack of a control point leads to necklaces or collars cutting into the neck, having a control point and attachment there would allow the necklace to potentially move properly with the slight neck movement (this would be best for collars or chokers obviously as necklaces can be wider)

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Either this is worded badly, or LL is about to break a ton of stuff.

Animations cannot include animation of positions, except for the pelvis.

This has always been enforced in bvh upload, but it has been possible to bypass the constraint by uploading animations as .anim files. In the Bento test regions (and on Agni once Bento is fully released), this will no longer be possible.

What exactly is this saying? Is it saying that bone positions can't and will never be able to be altered, cause that doesn't make any sense. What about all the animals in SL? They all require different bone positions. Or, is this saying that restricting position will no longer be possible? Either way, this is 1 screwed up couple of sentences.

 

If it is what it says tho, LL just went backwards when it comes to non human avatars. If LL never wanted to support bone positions, then it should have never allowed users to upload anim files in the LL viewer.

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Probably old content will remain compatible with those animations but new ones dont I guess and you wont be able to upload anymore those "hacked" animations. Which makes me wonder why dont we just drop anim files support and just update BVH to support everything just out of the box.

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Kitsune Shan wrote:

Probably old content will remain compatible with those animations but new ones dont I guess and you wont be able to upload anymore those "hacked" animations. Which makes me wonder why dont we just drop anim files support and just update BVH to support everything just out of the box.

LL's explaination doesn't make any sense. Bone positioning is extremely important, even with humanoid avatars. For animal avatars, bone positioning is a must. Heck the last avatar I did was a fly. Imagine how I had to distort that rig. Plus, in the Bento project, a jira was fixed that allows creators to have custom joint positions on a fitted mesh avatar. Before, it was not possible to create an avatar like the Navi, from the movie AVATAR, and use fitted mesh on that body. Now we can, but not if we can't change the joint positions. So, what exactly was the point of fixing that jira?

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I would really rather keep those "hacked" animations, since we were using them to fix what has been a problem with mesh joint offsets since the moment mesh launched, and has gone unfixed after numerous jiras and bug reports.

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I agree most strongly on needing to keep custom offsets. 

Also, I think as long as you're doing wing and tail bones, we need a 'digitigrade' bone: a joint between ankle and knee. Especially if we won't be able to repurpose other bones for it. (Although we need to be able to do that.) 

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I agree on the digitigrade bone. I would love to see new optional bones inserted between ankle and knee and between head and neck, for those creators who would like to use them. These should not break existing content if they are kept locked at default position when not in use.

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The 'digitigrade' bone is technically there. When you export in anim format, you have access to all the bones on the skeleton. Those extra bones in the feet were always there, just few people used them.

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Damn, I was loooking forward to wiggling my toes!

Are the bone assignments final or is there still a chance to suggest/reassign some bones for toes? (perhaps the fingertip or 2nd knuckle bones reassigned?)

 

p.s If you do decide to implement, can I have a royalty for when anyone Curls their Toes in SL? :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

 

 

 

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