TOS related discussion

[Princess Gata]

Am quite aware that TOS frowns quite seriously on people copying instant messages. However it can be the case that the person messaging you is bullying, blackmailing, abusing and spreading hate. Can the same rules of not copying apply? I challenge that in certain circumstances people need the right to copy im discussins into notecards and also share them if something is of a serious concern.

I wonder whether that is still against TOS.

[Ren Toxx]

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Princess Gata wrote: [...] people need the right to copy im discussins into notecards and also share them if something is of a serious concern.

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And how do the receivers of such notecards verify that the conversation portrayed in them was real and not altered in any way?

[irihapeti]

is mostly that a IM is unverifiable. Like I could claim that somebody said something in a IM which isnt true

if do want to make a thing against another person then can put on own blog. or on another forums on the internets

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eta: what Ren said

[Princess Gata]

I would argue that people could be trusted at first, however just like in rl police cases it should be noted that making a false case is against the law and will see the person who made it banned.

Of course the other party can access their im and show their own account of it.

[Ren Toxx]

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Princess Gata wrote: [...] it should be noted that making a false case is against the law and will see the person who made it banned.

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And again, how would the banners verify that the “case” was, in fact, false? There just isn’t any established in-world procedure for verifying the authenticity OR falseness of a purported log, so the would-be banners would be equally at risk of being misled if they believed either party. Which is why, quite simply, notecards aren’t a valid proof of misconduct, period; a case cannot be made in the first place.

The only ones who can actually verify the authenticity of a purported IM conversation are Linden Lab, which is why any serious enough case should be raised only to them. Any exchange of logs in-world between residents can, and in fact has been used to make false claims to benefit interested, if dishonest parties.

[Princess Gata]

I guess this means the honest ones lose out , even if I gave someone in charge the information to log in as me and see the exchange

In my time as an SL kid I seen an awful lot cause whether you want it or not there are people who abuse and when you report, often very little happens.

Thanks LindenLabs, but I for one would rather we were policed better.

[Ren Toxx]

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Princess Gata wrote: [...] I guess this means the honest ones lose out , even if I gave someone in charge the information to log in as me and see the exchange

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No, Princess, don’t be melodramatic. First, even if someone happened to log in with your account, that person would not be able to review your IM logs, because these are only stored locally (at least to residents, even you), so his/her computer would not have such log stored; you’d have to actually give that person full access to your entire system through some remote connection program, so that he/she could see your local files... and even this wouldn’t be proof, since the logs happen to be simple, unencrypted, plain-text files exceedingly easy to tamper with, before proceeding with that hypotetical remote connection.

And second, this doesn’t mean “that the honest ones lose out”... because you haven’t universally established yet that you are honest, or why the first person to share his/her log should be the one to be trusted, as you implied. It’s not a question of honesty, but of verifiability. It’s a technical and procedural question, if you will. Do propose a tamper-proof method to share logs, do convince Linden Lab to modify the TOS to share them (and to reprogram the system to permit this possibility, including a yet undetermined but still automatic and equally fool-proof and abuse-proof way to establish when and under which circumstances the criteria will be met to allow limited or unlimited sharing of private conversations), and then “honesty will win”, as you’d say.

Meanwhile, you might as well be objective and realize that dishonest ones "lose out" every bit as much as honest ones, because that TOS prohibition is completely agnostic: it applies to everyone, liars as well as non-liars.

[Princess Gata]

i don't say the first person to share is the one to be trusted, I do say that we need a system where these things can be policed and people in sl can feel protected.

[Ren Toxx]

Yes, Princess, and despite appearances, I wouldn’t object to such a system, quite the contrary... as long as it was a well thought one; but to be so, if would have to reliably overcome more issues than I honestly think you’re aware of: abuse, protection of privacy, tampering, specific rules, specific methods of initiation/termination and online storage of shareable logs, etc.

Anyway, if you feel so strongly about it, Princess, by all means do propose a system. Don’t do it here because this is pretty much a user-to-user forum, Linden Lab staffers rarely if ever come here, and even if they did, this forum is not the ideal place to effectively discuss it. There’s the official JIRA, where proposals are formally made, so go there. Just make sure that you have all the issues (technical, procedural) reasonably thought out in advance: what kind of system could be used to make it fully automated or user-driven but still abuse-proof; or where would they get the additional Linden Lab staff to do it (manually) to avoid putting such kind of authority in the hands of potentially unreliable end users. Do think of all the issues, because if you just ask “I want to be more protected”, they will predictably ask you “how”, you will say “I don’t know”, and they will answer: “nor do we”.

[Sassy Romano]

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Ren Toxx wrote:

Do propose a tamper-proof method to share logs

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The tamper proof part is easy.  After logging in for the first time, the viewer would enrol a digital certificate from LL.

The private key of which would be used to hash IM logs, verifiable against the public key.

Do we need it?  Nope   Do we need to share logs?  Nope

 

[Syo Emerald]

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Princess Gata wrote:

Am quite aware that TOS frowns quite seriously on people copying instant messages. However it can be the case that the person messaging you is bullying, blackmailing, abusing and spreading hate. Can the same rules of not copying apply? I challenge that in certain circumstances people need the right to copy im discussins into notecards and also share them if something is of a serious concern.

I wonder whether that is still against TOS.

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Yes, still against the ToS. The content of the IMs does not influence this part of the ToS. If those messages in itself contain themself violations of the ToS, file an AR. And then do what every sane person does and mute/block the offender.

If you are at a venue and want to let the staff now you got harassed from another visitor, simply tell them that, but don't include any chatlogs as it isn't worth it or any real proof. Usually people who act like that towards you, will do the same with others or act rude towards the staff, when questioned...so they might end up getting banned sooner or later.

[Buttacwup Float]

It is stil against the TOS. If you have an issue report it to LL. They can read all of that stuff. So file a report, note the time the conversation occured. Now the TOS doesnt prevent you from keeping the conversation log, and if you were to file a police report in RL against someone harassing you you could share your logs with the authorities as proof of your claim. But sharing them with anyone else would violate TOS>

[irihapeti]

what the others said already really

AR. block. done

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ps

I got 17 stalkers inworld

i am just lucky that way (:

i never AR them. Sometimes I block them and then sometimes I unblock them bc I am a bit bored with shopping so I turn them on to see what they ranting about now. I never reply to them either. I dont care enough about them to bother reply or even AR. Like I never got any hater blockers on. Just my dont care blockers on

but thats just me tho. For other people who ask about what they should do then I just say AR, block and done

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pps

some of my stalkers are actual AI bots. Not all of them. Just most of them

and that a thing as well. Quite often a person who ends up on these AI bot calling lists, can sometimes think that is a real person stalking them in the IM. bc they say quite nasty things quite often do these AI bots. Then if engage with them then they get even nastier

so suggest to people to think back to  when they first got that random hater IM. Why did they get it? Like it just came out of nowhere for no reason, from some random account that you never met, never knew, never seen, never even heard of before that first random IM in your box

and if the IM hater gets nastier and is pretty much incoherent, when reply to it then is a AI bot. So dont worry enough about it to care. Just AR, block and be happy 

+

somebody (who actual has been on this forums before, and keeps getting banned off it over the years) is the owner of them. That somebody has had a big butthurt hater on for LL ever since they got caught in the great land price crash  and end up lost 1000s of RL dollars

is why I dont care about them. Is one thing to have a hater on for LL and I can understand that. Is another thing tho to turn that hate onto other users who never had nothing to do with the hater losing their heaps of money 

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ppps

to the somebody who will read this. Young people (teens and 20 somethings) who troll give it (trolling) away after a few years bc they grow up

only older people will troll for years and years. Not bc they enjoy trolling. They do it bc of the money. The 1000s of dollars of their money that went down the plughole

with older people is always about the money, when they got their haters on

 

[Qie Niangao]

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Princess Gata wrote:

I wonder whether that is still against TOS.

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I hope that by this point in the discussion it's clear that the real reason that sharing notecards would be a waste of time is nothing to do with the ToS.

As Sassy says, there are well-understood technical solutions to the actual problem (non-repudiation). They're more trouble than they're worth for protecting the delicate sensibilities of aggrieved pixel pushers, but they're completely possible.

Nonetheless, some folks seem to think sharing unverifiable chatlogs would serve some purpose, so to that end, as already mentioned:

There is nothing in the ToS that forbids sharing chatlogs -- except using LL-supplied faciities. So if you really insist on sharing unverifiable chatlogs, don't be so lazy: post them somewhere else and share a URL instead. It's infinitely handier for the reader anyway, compared to fussing with a kludgy inventory-cluttering notecard in a viewer window.

[Tex Monday]

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Princess Gata wrote:

Am quite aware that TOS frowns quite seriously on people copying instant messages. However it can be the case that the person messaging you is bullying, blackmailing, abusing and spreading hate. Can the same rules of not copying apply? I challenge that in certain circumstances people need the right to copy im discussins into notecards and also share them if something is of a serious concern.

I wonder whether that is still against TOS.

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It's against the ToS, as far as I know, to take those notecards or conversations and plaster them all over forums or the feed or as group IMs inworld. You can however copy those conversations and send them to LL (which is what you would need to do in order to resolve the bullying etc.)

Unfortunately, the ToS is set up to protect everyone..including those engaged in the asinine tactics that you mentioned above.

[Perrie Juran]

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Tex Monday wrote:

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Princess Gata wrote:

Am quite aware that TOS frowns quite seriously on people copying instant messages. However it can be the case that the person messaging you is bullying, blackmailing, abusing and spreading hate. Can the same rules of not copying apply? I challenge that in certain circumstances people need the right to copy im discussins into notecards and also share them if something is of a serious concern.

I wonder whether that is still against TOS.

---

It's against the ToS, as far as I know, to take those notecards or conversations and plaster them all over forums or the feed or as group IMs inworld. You

can

however copy those conversations and send them to LL (which is what you would need to do in order to resolve the bullying etc.)

Unfortunately, the ToS is set up to protect everyone..including those engaged in the asinine tactics that you mentioned above.

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Disclosing private Second Life conversations

Sharing or posting a conversation inworld or in the Second Life forums without consent of all involved Residents is a violation of the Terms of Service.

NOTE: This does not include posting of chat to social media sites or other websites. Posting such logs on web pages, emailing them, or printing them out and posting them on utility poles in the "real world" -- are all actions beyond the scope of the Second Life Terms of Service. ; while that might be illegal, but those laws must be enforced by the proper law enforcement agencies.

"Conversation" means text that originally came from Second Life chat or Second Life instant messages. If it's totally unattributed, then it isn't considered disclosure. Additionally, Residents are not punished for sharing or posting a comment such as "Bob Resident said, 'You're the greatest!'"

Linden Lab Official:Residents' Privacy Rights

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Aside from the fact that it is well known that chat logs can be altered and forged, and therefore not proof of anything, who would decide when a circumstance warrants sharing logs and with whom?

There is NO reason to share chat logs in world, on feeds or in the forum.  If a case is serious enough, then share them with LL in an AR who can verify them as unaltered.  Otherwise, you can privately relate a conversation by paraphrasing it to land or sim owners if someone needs banning.  If your friends won't believe you unless they see chat logs, there are trust issues.

I for one am glad the TOS makes it illegal.  I've never known any circumstance that was improved by the sharing of logs.  Generally it only causes drama.

BTW, those silly disclaimers people put in their profiles about "if you IM me or chat with me you give me permission to share the logs" is just BS.  You can't agree to the TOS then decide which parts you won't follow.  Even with that disclaimer, if someone AR's you for sharing without permission, you'll still be in trouble.

[Infinatedepths]

I have read through multiple threads and find the advice given by you all helpful.  However, I have a situation that has arisen and thought I would ask you all for your opinions.

About six months ago I had a "falling out" with someone in a RP sim that I belong to.  One thing led to another and about 4 months ago she left the sim in a huff.  End of problem right?  Not really.  She and I have blocked each other but have friends in common. 

The other day I got a message from one of these friends in common, with a note card attached.  This woman, after 4 months is continuing to put liabelous remarks on the picks section of her profile about me and has now put conversations between the owner of the sim and some "annoymous" person about the people on the sim, under such headings as "Be Treated like a doormat? Go to *****.  She has taken quotes from my profile (which shows me she's stalking my profile and/or me) and then posted her own brand of liabel about me using those quotes.  The stalking started before she left the sim.  Like I say I have blocked her and thus far ignored her.  However, it is becoming increasingly apparent that she is doing this to harass and interfere with my (and the sim owner's) enjoyment of SL.  I now have people that I don't even know coming to me asking about all of this nonesense.  My reply is that I have nothing to say, as I really don't want to perpetuate this and would rather it just died away. The problem is she just won't let it go.

I have filed reports regarding this, but so far it seems that this issue has fallen on deaf ears.  I'm to the point where I may ask my rl boss to give me a Cease and Desist letter to send to her rl. 

Any advice would be very helpful.

[Rhonda Huntress]

Bob: "Art is a liar who wants to stir up drama."

Art: "I don't think it is right to discuss past conflicts about someone who is not here to give their side."

Bob: "Art is money hungry and will steal or cheat to get more."

Art: "I wish I could help him let it go."

Bob: "If you want to be used, go see Art.  He'll make you do all the work and you wont even get a thank you."

Art: "Come by any time.  If there is anything I can do to help, just let me know."

 

Which one of those is the person you are most likely to invite to your Halloween party?
Be positive and stick to your values.  She may be saying negative things about you but she is the one being negative.  Don't try to persuade other people ointo taking your side or filling abuse reports for you and certianly don't put any demands on your mutual friends. Stay positive; let her be negative. 

[Infinatedepths]

Thanks.  LIke I said I refuse to discuss it with those who come and ask me outright.  I absolutely refuse to sink to her level and fire back any kind of inworld response.  Bascially I refuse to fuel her immaturity.  I don't play the  taking sides game.  And I have so far been sucessful in shruging her off, but it Is starting to get annoying.  I have also asked the friends in common not to send me info on what she is doing, as I don't much care.