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Magnus Brody

The Forums Are Far Too Boring

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Xiola Linden wrote:

 

For status, do you feel that the use of the badging system could be a way to give that status? 

 

The badging system is completely meaningless, other than for those who might be impressed with themselves because they get three notifications of "improved" status after four and a half posts.

And don't get me started on the value - or otherwise - of kudos.

If you're going to go down that road, then why not publish a league table of the most prolific abuse reporters; perhaps with an indication of their success ratios. THAT would probably make some of the participants here feel proud of themselves.

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This is why I say talk about the forum means very little. Here is a transcript from 2011 of an inworld meeting about the forum -- with emphasis on moderation -- led by Viale Linden, and featuring many regular posters (few of whom are regular posters now).  Very enlightening.

 

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Community_Tools_User_Group/10-November-2011

 

Linked in that meeting was an open letter from Void Singer to Rod Humble, re forum moderation:

 

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Forums-Feedback/An-Open-letter-to-Rod-Humble-Re-Second-Life-forums/td-p/1215419

We have lost a lot of very good people, people who brought much to the forums. Forum content now is sad indeed by comparison.   I dont know if they can ever be won back -- unlikely -- but at least it might be possible to stop driving off those who have to potential to make significant contributions.

 

 

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Xiola Linden wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

I think that by this time Xiola will have gotten the point that Moderation has been lackluster here. 

So I want to make a few more suggestions.  Though really it's just one.

More participation by Lindens.  Primarily in three categories.

1)   Technical.  Sometimes we are giving our best guesses when answering questions.  I do exend Kudos to the Devs, they have been more proactive to jump in with technical tid bits lately that help everyone.  More of this would be good.

   In this same category, get the Tips & Tricks active again.  It's been several years since anything was posted to it.  Though the videos should be reviewed by a Linden for accuracy, the videos don't all need to be authored by Linden Lab.

2)  Policies (TOS, CS, etc.)   We all do are best to help people who have specific, 'is this ok' questions.  We all do our best to apply the rules but sometimes we are simply not sure.  Getting clarification from Governance for instance could be very helpful.

3)  Long Term Problems.   Sometimes when people post here it's because a problem has gone on too long.  We had a club owner who asked our advice here once.  For over four weeks she was unable to get the SLURL to her club in events fixed.  She contacted support who told her to contact whoever who said it was supports job and litterly spent a month going in circles.

Or the pornographic griefing cubes that took over three weeks to get removed from G rated mainland.  If after three weeks of filing abuse reports on something like this it hasn't been fixed a Linden reading this Forum should be making sure something is done about it.

Thanks, Perrie. All points noted and will be brought up, by me  to those teams. Much of the discussion around particular policy questions is best handled on a case by case basis due to sensitivities, but maybe there are some other areas where we can better surface information around common and/or frequent questions. 

To you other points, I don't have a quick answer but I will continue having conversations internally to see if there are things that can help.

~Xiola

 

Thank you Xiola.

My main point, which I think you understand, is that sometimes we need someone from the Lab to step in with an answer.  We know that Linden's read the Forum at times.  At least we can see that they are logging in.  So why not respond when appropriate or refer a thread to someone who can respond.

Another thing which I didn't bring up is the "Answers" section.  I think many of us had resolved ourselves that nothing would ever get done so we quit complaining.  The format for the answers section all but sucks (pardon my English).  In the early days of Lithium we all but begged that they used the same format as the rest of the Forums. 

Some problems require 'conversation' to solve.  More information is needed, etc. There really is no way to carry on a conversation in them.  Other issues I'm sure others can expand on.  My self personally, I avoid the answers section.  They are not user friendly. 

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Pamela Galli wrote:

This is why I say talk about the forum means very little. Here is a transcript from 2011 of an inworld meeting about the forum -- with emphasis on moderation -- led by Viale Linden, and featuring many regular posters (few of whom are regular posters now).  Very enlightening.

 

 

Linked in that meeting was an open letter from Void Singer to Rod Humble, re forum moderation:

 

We have lost a lot of very good people, people who brought much to the forums. Forum content now is sad indeed by comparison.   I dont know if they can ever be won back -- unlikely -- but at least it might be possible to stop driving off those who have to potential to make significant contributions.

 

 

I'm not sure if Xiola would be able to see the full impact of that User Group meeting from the transcript.

Prior to that we had regular dialogue with Lexie helping to shape the Forum, it's categories, etc.  The Forum was lively and active.  Then Viale stepped in and ALL dialogue stopped.

Vampires were not the only bad choice.  Actually, Vampires was not itself a bad choice.  It was promoting Bloodlines that was the big mistake.

In addition, other subjects were started by someone (presumably Viale) that were totally laughable.  I'd have to dig to pull them up. 

He had a large group of people willing to help but all he did was dump on us.

And in response to that people pulled up their roots and went elsewhere to the detriment of the Forum.

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Pamela Galli wrote:

This is why I say talk about the forum means very little. Here is a transcript from 2011 of an inworld meeting about the forum -- with emphasis on moderation -- led by Viale Linden, and featuring many regular posters (few of whom are regular posters now).  Very enlightening.

 

 

Linked in that meeting was an open letter from Void Singer to Rod Humble, re forum moderation:

 

We have lost a lot of very good people, people who brought much to the forums. Forum content now is sad indeed by comparison.   I dont know if they can ever be won back -- unlikely -- but at least it might be possible to stop driving off those who have to potential to make significant contributions.

 

 

Good job Pam, I was looking for lhat letter.

It might be a good idea to point out that when a number of us took to Rodvik's Feed to lodge our dissatisfaction he closed it, as did Lexie and the abominable Viale.

It is with Interesting pserendipity to note that that troika are now gone.

Yet We remain, still waiting and hoping to be taken seriously and accorded with the requisite respect.

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Xiola's feed is open at the moment though.

It says she is LEAD Community Manager.

Maybe if she does well she'll be a BRONZE Community Manager.

It's like that  badges and motivation thing.

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Oh, Lexie wasn't bad, although she fell into the usual PR trap of making promises that she wasn't allowed to keep.

Unlike Amanda who just lied.

My personal favourite was the one who thought she could administer discipline in the forums by disemvowelling posts.

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I suppose that is true. She did begin enthusiastically and did manage to get a few things done. Unfortunately she had the rug pulled out from under her to our detriment. Many were disappointed when she closed her feed.

I concur on Amanda.

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LlazarusLlong wrote:

OOOOO ...who thought she could administer discipline in the forums by
disemvowelling posts
.

 

       :|       Brutal!  Absolutely brutal.  

 

 

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Derek Torvalar wrote:


LlazarusLlong wrote:

One of the things that would make the GD Forum less boring would be for the mods to be proactive about removing tedious non-general-discussion threads which should be more properly located in other, specific, forums.

Like THIS thread should be relocated to the SPECIFIC subforum called 
. . .

Careful, they are liable to put into Events.

jejeje (:

 

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Dillon Levenque wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:


Dillon Levenque wrote:

I'm glad you posted here.  I agree with Pussycat's comment a couple posts back about giving people whose posts have been deleted the courtesy of being told just what about their post violated whatever CS or TOS rule. I'll even take it a step further and suggest the poster should be allowed one reply—a sort of unofficial appeal—to try to defend himself: point out that he was misread, or that that's not what it meant, or whatever, and that that reply should be actually looked at, evaluated, and answered (the answer being the decision re: the unofficial appeal and not subject to further debate at that level). Yes that means more work for the mods and I know this isn't exactly an LL revenue center.

Having had the job of moderating a forum as one of my professional duties before - I would NOT agree to this part.

If such a reply were public it would only serve to create a public fiasco.

If it were private, it would only end up being a complaint medium and would result in boosting the sense of denial among those moderated.

There are forums all over the internet and such levels of entitlement are not the norm. It bogs down resources, leads to a sense of being 'under attack', not among the mods, but among those who develop a sense that they are unfairly moderated.

Adults need to just learn to move on to the next topic, or rephrase their point in a manner less troubled. Its one thing to just move on if a place is toxic or full of harrasment, but another to do so because one is not given special vindication.

 

 My idea was to add a little 'burden of proof' to a RIC. If a post is deleted due to a RIC (as I think most deleted posts are), the poster should be told what the violation was, and she should be entitled to contest the violation once, directly, via email to the mod. Hopefully that might result in someone actually reading RIC'd posts, rather than just assuming that whoever reported them was correct about the supposed violation.

If its private, then it would be no different than now.

If you receive a message from the mods, you can reply to it. I've done so.

I will say that, as a person who is both sometimes impulsive / emotive in my responses and yet also deeply reflective and philosophical... I've generally regretted almost every such response I've sent. They tend to still be 'me in the moment', before my reflective side has had the time it takes to reach a better conclusion.

The unchanging nature of the opinions of many people onlne demonstrates that most people are NOT very self-reflective, and are also highly self-biased. Giving such people more ammunition to get argumentative won't help them - it will just entrench their stance further.

This is why a common forum punishment is a timeout of so many days - people who have enough reflective ability will in that time span 'cool off' and come back in a better state of mind.

That said... I agree this is only effective with most people if they are told why they are being moderated. Most of the time it should be obvious, unless one's judgement is being colored by the heat of the moment. But its useful policy anyway for the less trained at self-reflection persons.

 

 

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

 

I love the new badge image. You are much more attractive without the fangs ;-).

(Seriously, it's terrific that you're using your avatar image in your badge; it's amazing how much more personal that makes it.)

She also gets to learn now how its very annoying that you cannot change the color of the text of your name on that avatar badge... :)

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

If you receive a message from the mods, you can reply to it.

I have six messages that I've sent to mods re warnings I've received sitting in my outbox, going back to 2011.

Five were read.

One remained unread almost a year after it was sent (and remains unread; I think that particular mod is no longer with us).

Zero got a response.

Fat lot of good it did me, huh.

ETA: When you get that ban notice, I don't think you get to reply at all. You get something like this:

ban2.jpg

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Xiola,

i just want to support the suggestions made by others already here. And add some things

+

over the street the main guy reads every post pretty much. Now and again he will come into a thread and go: c'mon people. behave yourselves. I have to read all this. gimme a break ok

and people go: oops! sorry! forgot about that and they tone it down

sometimes he will say: I have had enough of this. Is doing my head in. And he locks the thread

is active engagement this style of moderation. I Mod, am in this with you guys

if people dont get this and just keep mouthing off (thread after thread) then he just banhammers them

he dont much remove posts unless it advocates actual harm to a person

+

in LL's case then you have a corporate-style ToS. And is some rules round that for sure

but so what really what people might say. Unless is a clear violation (and able to be supported by evidence). Evidence given to you Xiola (the manager) by the mod then so what

+

if was me then I would not have any RIC capability for forum users

Like as a mod I got enough to do reading all the posts. As a trained mod (bc I been trained by LL to be this) then I have to justify any takedowns in my daily work report, and also provide links (evidence) to the Manager in my report

without the RIC then we (forum users) know that a post was actual removed by a LL mod bc they have read it without being prompted to do so by a forum user. A mod who has also read the whole thread and has read the post in the context of the convo. A mod who is following the conversation

i dont think is necessary (in this method) that the post writer needs to be informed of why their post was removed

if the post is in a thread that is getting contentious then the mod has already been in there asking people to chill out

if the post is just some random driveby in a otherwise non-contentious thread then as Manager I am not going to waste my time or my staffs time justifying a takedown to the shooter

+

about LL communication via blogs and forum mechanics

Is a (flow) disconnect between the blogs and the conversation. Like a blog post is made and comments on it are locked. There is usually a link to a forum thread in the blog post where the convo is

thats the flow disconnect

when a blog post is open for comment then you get lots of them. When is locked and people get redirected elsewhere then they dont do this as much. Actual engage in the convo

as a user. I read the blog post. I comment. The post I can see in same window. Is my reference when I am typing my comment (contrib to the conversation)

when the post is not in same window then I have to keep flipping back and forward as I am typing. So I cant be bothered after having to do this a few times. Is a tedious way to engage in conversation

also as well

when the blog post that explains everything is not in the same view as the convo then get people come in asking questions about what is this??

or saying stuff which is not true. Mostly bc they are going off a memory of what they read elsewhere

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Xiola Linden wrote:

In regards to moderation - the moderators do their best in helping to uphold the ToS and Community Participation Guidelines, however if you feel that a mistake or misunderstanding was made, the best route is to contact support so it can be reviewed.

First, thank you for reading and replying here in the SL forum Xiola. 

As to contacting support.  They have nothing to do with this forum, and cannot assist us with issues here. 

 


Xiola Linden wrote:

One thing we'd like to do is start more threads that will allow feedback on announcements here in the forums,....

What announcements?   LL and SL developments are routinely announcemented to a select few SL resident's prior to the general SL populace.  It's done through people that write blogs outside of here.    So, I've stopped paying attention to any SL announcement's.

 

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Pamela Galli wrote:

How about starting with apologizing to Void, one of the strongest and most knowledgable posters here...

Yes, Void Singer, one of the most giving, tireless, and knowledgeable posters.  She went above and beyond to help people in thie forums.  What did she get for that?   A smack-down by "moderation", as she dared to question their tactics. 

So, we (the SL forum) lost her....and really we lost the heart and soul of the forum.   She never even got a reply to her queries about her "warning".  

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Xiola Linden wrote:


LlazarusLlong wrote:


Xiola Linden wrote:

if you feel that a mistake or misunderstanding was made, the best route is to contact support so it can be reviewed. 

 

How?

Via the support portal here: 

Xiola, I know you're trying to help.  But, the support portal not only doesn't have a software path for forum help, but, the support staff aren't able to help for issues here.  I know, as I've tried it!

 

We often try to send forum private messages to the moderation team, but if one's banned from here, we can't even do that.

 

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Xiola Linden wrote:


I understand that there are concerns about some moderation decisions. That point has been made and noted, and currently, those questions can be 
addressed via the support channel. 

 

Uh, no they cannot.  SL forum issues have never been able to be addressed via the support channel.  

To test if something has changed, I just went to the support channel, and just as always, there's no path for issues here.  I also would be willing to bet money, that if I sent a ticket about a SL forum issue, that I'd be told they don't handle it.  They've never done support for the forum. 

If there's now some NEW rule or support team for the forum, that would be news to us all.  (The kind of thing that would be worthy of an announcment.  *chuckling*)

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A good start would be to not discriminate on other languages. Why have a forum section for other languages, when you ban a good chunk of letters regularly used in them? Its incredible hard to have a conversation in the german forum or the german answer section and there is absolutly no reason to ban letters from this forum.

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Syo Emerald wrote:

 there is absolutly no reason to ban letters from this forum.

I think we should have a Welsh language forum, where it wouldn't matter if vowels were banned.

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LlazarusLlong wrote:

I think we should have a Welsh language forum, where it wouldn't matter if vowels were banned.


Diolch yn fawr iawn - but as you can see Welsh does have vowels !

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irihapeti wrote:

Xiola,

<snip>

about LL communication via blogs and forum mechanics

Is a (flow) disconnect between the blogs and the conversation. Like a blog post is made and comments on it are locked. There is usually a link to a forum thread in the blog post where the convo is

thats the flow disconnect


Or the other thing that happens is several people will see a Blog post and start separate threads about it.

That can cause even more confusion.

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