The Forums Are Far Too Boring

[Dillon Levenque]

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irihapeti wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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... I should think there are more important things to do than expend precious resources on the forums. Why not just shut them down?

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Snugs, you are such a sinner.  Maddy is so going to put you in the fire for this

(:

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Maddy's never understood why LL even bothers with the Forum. I remember her saying much the same things in a post back in 2009 or 2010 in the Jive forum. Where she goes wrong is by being logical. Logic got nuttin' to do with it. There's an over-riding reason why the Forums should continue:

I enjoy them.

Wait, two reasons! You enjoy them too. :-)

[Pamela Galli]

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Cinnamon Mistwood wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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{snip}Well hello, Xiola! That's such a pretty name, so much better than "Community".{snip}

I think your name is prettier than Maddy thinks it is. *wonders how well flattery will work*

 

{snip}I gotta ask... why on Earth LL would want to make the forums more interesting for all Second Life Residents?  I should think there are more important things to do than expend precious resources on the forums. Why not just shut them down?{snip}

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I am feeling sappy and sentimental right now

.

*passes out awkwardly long hugs and inappropriate wet kisses to all*

An important aspect of SL is community and all the ways it can be expressed.  The forums are a community and always have been.  They add to the inworld experience for many instead of taking away from it.  Like any community many different kinds of personalities congregate in one place to share ideas, complain or praise, debate, and pass on information and experiences.  A small percentage of SL users may come here, but for them it is an important aspect of their second lives. 

The forums have the potential to be more if moderation is consistent and fair, but the fairness and consistency involves us as well.  Instead of looking to mods to make what appears to be arbitrary decisions on content, I move that residents take control of their own personal boundaries.  If you don't like the way a conversation is going, leave the conversation.  Instead of deciding for other people what they should be allowed to read or who they should be allowed to read by RICing things that offend you, let others make up their minds about whether to engage in conversation.  I know that is a bit simplistic and idealistic considering there is real and actual harassment beyond the sensitivities of a bit of ribbing and name calling.  I just think RICing a thread should be a last resort.  The reporting system is not used properly, but instead of getting rid of  it completely, maybe those who are caught abusing it should be given a time-out. 

Warning #1 We have found your use of the reporting button to be unwarranted.  Please reread the ToS/CS before using it again. 

Warning #2 We feel you are unable to handle the content of a certain thread.  For your own good we are giving you a 2 day time-out.

Warning #3 Really?  Maybe you should find a different community.  We are worried about your mental and emotional health.  We are sending you on a 1 month all-expenses paid vacation inworld.  Have fun!

The point is that this (the forums) is a community with wealthy neighborhoods, teaching institutions, bad neighborhoods to be aware of.  It contains the shy, the vain, the knowledgeable, the village idiot, that mean drunk uncle, the motherly figures, the new-age weirdos, those damn hipsters, and those that just don't get it.  Who are we to decide who gets to live here?  Want a more interesting forum?  Let more differing opinions stay.  Ease off the mods and be responsible for yourselves instead of looking to the heavy handed overlords to do it for you.  Let the mods be the last resort not the first. 

Now get off my lawn!

Do I have to say that all the "you" up there are general yous and not directed just at Maddy?  I thought so...

 

Cinn         

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Exactly what I think -- this is a (dwindling) community. Most of my friends in SL I met here or in the Xstreet forums, as I dont wander around SL striking up conversations with people. (I do think the chances of self-moderation by many are slim, tho.)

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Cinnamon Mistwood wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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{snip}Well hello, Xiola! That's such a pretty name, so much better than "Community".{snip}

I think your name is prettier than Maddy thinks it is. *wonders how well flattery will work*

 

{snip}I gotta ask... why on Earth LL would want to make the forums more interesting for all Second Life Residents?  I should think there are more important things to do than expend precious resources on the forums. Why not just shut them down?{snip}

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I am feeling sappy and sentimental right now

.

*passes out awkwardly long hugs and inappropriate wet kisses to all*

An important aspect of SL is community and all the ways it can be expressed.  The forums are a community and always have been.  They add to the inworld experience for many instead of taking away from it.  Like any community many different kinds of personalities congregate in one place to share ideas, complain or praise, debate, and pass on information and experiences.  A small percentage of SL users may come here, but for them it is an important aspect of their second lives. 

The forums have the potential to be more if moderation is consistent and fair, but the fairness and consistency involves us as well.  Instead of looking to mods to make what appears to be arbitrary decisions on content, I move that residents take control of their own personal boundaries.  If you don't like the way a conversation is going, leave the conversation.  Instead of deciding for other people what they should be allowed to read or who they should be allowed to read by RICing things that offend you, let others make up their minds about whether to engage in conversation.  I know that is a bit simplistic and idealistic considering there is real and actual harassment beyond the sensitivities of a bit of ribbing and name calling.  I just think RICing a thread should be a last resort.  The reporting system is not used properly, but instead of getting rid of  it completely, maybe those who are caught abusing it should be given a time-out. 

Warning #1 We have found your use of the reporting button to be unwarranted.  Please reread the ToS/CS before using it again. 

Warning #2 We feel you are unable to handle the content of a certain thread.  For your own good we are giving you a 2 day time-out.

Warning #3 Really?  Maybe you should find a different community.  We are worried about your mental and emotional health.  We are sending you on a 1 month all-expenses paid vacation inworld.  Have fun!

The point is that this (the forums) is a community with wealthy neighborhoods, teaching institutions, bad neighborhoods to be aware of.  It contains the shy, the vain, the knowledgeable, the village idiot, that mean drunk uncle, the motherly figures, the new-age weirdos, those damn hipsters, and those that just don't get it.  Who are we to decide who gets to live here?  Want a more interesting forum?  Let more differing opinions stay.  Ease off the mods and be responsible for yourselves instead of looking to the heavy handed overlords to do it for you.  Let the mods be the last resort not the first. 

Now get off my lawn!

Do I have to say that all the "you" up there are general yous and not directed just at Maddy?  I thought so...

 

Cinn         

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Exactly what I think -- this is a (dwindling) community. Most of my friends in SL I met here or in the Xstreet forums, as I dont wander around SL striking up conversations with people. (I do think the chances of self-moderation by many are slim, tho.)

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Even in its heyday, the forums represented a tiny sliver of the SL population, and that's why I question the value. If the value of the forums is 0.5%, then LL shouldn't apportion more than one person to it (presuming a staff of 200 at the moment). I'm guessing at numbers and vastly simplifying the calculus, but I'm simply trying to show another way of looking at this.

I do not believe that we in the forums are representative of SL residents in general, and I do not believe I'm representative of forum residents in general. Every argument made about how moderation affects forums may be true (and I agree with much of what I've read here, including Cinn's comments) and of no consequence if the forums are the wrong way to serve SL.

I've watched people trying to fix something that's clearly broken without questioning whether it would be worth anything if working correctly. If the profile feed was LL's attempt to address a fundamental shortcoming in the forum's ability to support networking out-world, why not improve that and remove GD, which is the most contentious of the forums because it's the most social?

And as for dwindling, that applies to all of SL.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Cinnamon Mistwood wrote:

The reporting system is not used properly, but instead of getting rid of  it completely, maybe those who are caught abusing it should be given a time-out. 

Warning #1 We have found your use of the reporting button to be unwarranted.  Please reread the ToS/CS before using it again. 

Warning #2 We feel you are unable to handle the content of a certain thread.  For your own good we are giving you a 2 day time-out.

Warning #3 Really?  Maybe you should find a different community.  We are worried about your mental and emotional health.  We are sending you on a 1 month all-expenses paid vacation inworld.  Have fun!

Cinn         

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I love your outlook, Cinn (as always).  Nevertheless, I don't believe that handing down warnings for RIC abuse is the way to go.  We want people to RIC actual violations without the fear of being reprimanded for doing so.  Especially when all that's really needed is for the moderators to take action only on actual violations, rather than just reacting to an inappropriate RIC.  This is why I'd like them to be held accountable for the actions they take.

If it becomes apparent to them that a particular person is abusing the RIC button, they could simply PM them and tell them to cut it out or they'll be forced to simply ignore any future RIC they receive from that person.  The fable about the boy who cried wolf comes to mind.

I'd just like a bit of common sense injected into the process.  And, since LL can't control the common sense of their users, the responsibility has to be placed upon the moderators to make use of it.  If this is something they simply can't do, then they should be replaced with people who can.

 

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Cinnamon Mistwood wrote:

I am feeling sappy and sentimental right now

.

*passes out awkwardly long hugs and inappropriate wet kisses to all*

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What?... no screen licking?

...Dres *passes some back to you*

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

Even in its heyday, the forums represented a tiny sliver of the SL population, and that's why I question the value. If

the value of the forums is 0.5%

, then LL shouldn't apportion more than one person to it (presuming a staff of 200 at the moment). I'm guessing at numbers and vastly simplifying the calculus, but I'm simply trying to show another way of looking at this.

I do not believe that we in the forums are representative of SL residents in general, and I do not believe I'm representative of forum residents in general. Every argument made about how moderation affects forums may be true (and I agree with much of what I've read here, including Cinn's comments) and of no consequence if the forums are the wrong way to serve SL.

I've watched people trying to fix something that's clearly broken without questioning whether it would be worth anything if working correctly. If the profile feed was LL's attempt to address a fundamental shortcoming in the forum's ability to support networking out-world, why not improve that and remove GD, which is the most contentious of the forums because it's the most social?

And as for dwindling, that applies to all of SL.

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I simply don't believe that having a forum is as little of value as you suggest.  If that were the case, there wouldn't be such a vast number of platform/company based forums across the net.

...Dres

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

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irihapeti wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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... I should think there are more important things to do than expend precious resources on the forums. Why not just shut them down?

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Snugs, you are such a sinner.  Maddy is so going to put you in the fire for this

(:

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Maddy's never understood why LL even bothers with the Forum. I remember her saying much the same things in a post back in 2009 or 2010 in the Jive forum. Where she goes wrong is by being logical. Logic got nuttin' to do with it. There's an over-riding reason why the Forums should continue:

I enjoy them.

Wait, two reasons! You enjoy them too. :-)

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Hey, I enjoy them too, so that makes three reasons!

But you're right, I try to avoid confusing my valuation of a thing with someone else's. That way I avoid both the humilation of feeling wrong and the hubris of feeling right.

It's enough to simply feel different.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

Even in its heyday, the forums represented a tiny sliver of the SL population, and that's why I question the value. If

the value of the forums is 0.5%

, then LL shouldn't apportion more than one person to it (presuming a staff of 200 at the moment). I'm guessing at numbers and vastly simplifying the calculus, but I'm simply trying to show another way of looking at this.

I do not believe that we in the forums are representative of SL residents in general, and I do not believe I'm representative of forum residents in general. Every argument made about how moderation affects forums may be true (and I agree with much of what I've read here, including Cinn's comments) and of no consequence if the forums are the wrong way to serve SL.

I've watched people trying to fix something that's clearly broken without questioning whether it would be worth anything if working correctly. If the profile feed was LL's attempt to address a fundamental shortcoming in the forum's ability to support networking out-world, why not improve that and remove GD, which is the most contentious of the forums because it's the most social?

And as for dwindling, that applies to all of SL.

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I simply don't believe that having a forum is as little of value as you suggest.  If that were the case, there wouldn't be such a vast number of platform/company based forums across the net.

...Dres

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The "forums" I find elsewhere are generally for technical support, and they're often implemented differently than here. I'm not aware of any social networking providers that offer a social forum in competition with their primary product. I believe the profile feed was LL's attempt to address SL's inability to support networking out-world. To the extent the forums are used for socializing, they compete with the Feed. To the extent the Feed reduces usage of SL, it competes with SL. LL's goal is to maximize profit, not forumite happiness.

Look at Facebook's "Community" area... 

https://www.facebook.com/help/community/

That doesn't look much like a forum, does it? And there is no place to socialize. Discovery and commentary are well directed.

Look at Apple's "Support Communities".

https://discussions.apple.com/welcome

Again, that doesn't look like a forum (at least in the sense our forum looks like a forum).

I'm not a Facebook member, so I don't know if there is a RIC/AR facility. I am an Apple customer, there is no RIC/AR facility.

I think there's a reason for this. The support community is organized clearly by topic, so there's less opportunity for people to get "off task". You have a problem, you know where to seek a solution. You have some knowledge, you know where to provide support. A well implemented support portal has value, and it needn't be a forum. If it is, structuring it properly can reduce or eliminate the need for moderation.

The fact that LL's forum has RIC/AR and needs moderation suggests it was improperly conceived and designed. I don't believe the GD forum has any value to LL at this time, and I believe it had negative value in the past. While the support forums have value to those who use them, I'm not sure many SL residents do, so the value to LL is not clear to me. As the KB and Wiki grow more stale, I continue to wonder why LL is looking at the forum.

One of the most commonly repeated phrases over in Answers is "The Lindens never come here."

Oops!

[Dresden Ceriano]

I should have been more specific.  By platform/company, I meant company with a platform similar to SL with which to contend... not a huge social media or computer manufacturing company.  Platforms such as Star Trek Online and World of Warcraft, which each have official forums... general discussion sub-forums and all.  Many such platforms do.  I can only assume that they do because it's actually beneficial to do so... perhaps you know better.

...Dres

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

I should have been more specific.  By platform/company, I meant company with a platform similar to SL with which to contend... not a huge social media or computer manufacturing company.  Platforms such as Star Trek Online and World of Warcraft, which each have official forums... general discussion sub-forums and all.  Many such platforms do.  I can only assume that they do because it's actually beneficial to do so... perhaps you know better.

...Dres

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Me know better? No way!

I just visited the Star Trek site, and it didn't take long to find people insulting each other. Does that place have moderation? RIC/AR?

Over at WoW, one of the threads on the first page of the "General Discussion" forum is "This forum breeds negativity". So LL ain't the only place dealing with that.

So, it appears maybe I don't know nuthin!

ETA: I created a WoW account and see they do have RIC/AR facilities.

They also have 500 GD threads active in the last day, some with nearly 400 posts during that time, but most with just a couple. The entire LL forum aggregate generated about 200 posts on Thursday.

WoW's(BattleNet) Code of Conduct is even stricter than LL's.

[irihapeti]

about LL making things that seem like a thing that heaps of users will use and ends up only being used by very few users

+

when LL made media on a prim they also made attached media on a prim

lots of users use media on a prim. Hardly anybody uses attached media. bc spies who spy on users

i am the only user I have ever met who uses attached media. So can stream radio whereever my avatar goes. So my avatar can hear the music as well as me (:

so end up with whole lots of dev hours and effort went into it just so that my avatar dont have to wonder how come they dancing and jumping round when is no music for her to hear

she look at me a bit rolly eye when is no music. kinda like whateva (:

+

sooo

i have come to realise why LL dont seem to not pay much attention to users

seems like LL devs are not here to enable users. They are here to make avatars happy

when LL have to make a choice (like resource allocation) between users and avatars then they always choose avatars. bc avatars are their people

if they werent then my avatar wouldnt have got her own ipod

(:

[Derek Torvalar]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

I should have been more specific.  By platform/company, I meant company with a platform similar to SL with which to contend... not a huge social media or computer manufacturing company.  Platforms such as Star Trek Online and World of Warcraft, which each have official forums... general discussion sub-forums and all.  Many such platforms do.  I can only assume that they do because it's actually beneficial to do so... perhaps you know better.

...Dres

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Me know better? No way!

I just visited the Star Trek site, and it didn't take long to find people insulting each other. Does that place have moderation? RIC/AR?

Over at WoW, one of the threads on the first page of the "General Discussion" forum is "This forum breeds negativity". So LL ain't the only place dealing with that.

So, it appears maybe I don't know nuthin!

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Maybe? Appears?

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

At a time when you're losing more than 10,000 new signups per week, I should think there are more important things to do than expend precious resources on the forums.

;-).

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Yes there are a lot fewer spammers making accounts now it would seem.

That said, why do so many people still believe that employees who work in one area somehow magically have the skills to work in another... ? Or even that every resource used in one way detracts from those used in others...

 

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Is it better to think that companies should tailor their products and services to the capabilities of their employees? or to think that resources are not finite?

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No.

Its better to realize that you don't hire a lawyer and put them in IT, or hire an IT person and put them in sales, or a marketing person and put them in QA.

Would you have a line worker at an auto-plant become the lead counsel to represent you in a lawsuit over recalled parts?

Would you go to a restaurant and demand to know why the dishwasher is not cooking your meal?

 

Why do people not realize this of tech companies?

That just because you work in one does not automagically make you know all the kinds of things those nerdy kids in children's cartoons know...

People have specialties.

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

At a time when you're losing more than 10,000 new signups per week, I should think there are more important things to do than expend precious resources on the forums.

;-).

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Yes there are a lot fewer spammers making accounts now it would seem.

That said, why do so many people still believe that employees who work in one area somehow magically have the skills to work in another... ? Or even that every resource used in one way detracts from those used in others...

 

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Is it better to think that companies should tailor their products and services to the capabilities of their employees? or to think that resources are not finite?

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No.

Its better to realize that you don't hire a lawyer and put them in IT, or hire an IT person and put them in sales, or a marketing person and put them in QA.

Would you have a line worker at an auto-plant become the lead counsel to represent you in a lawsuit over recalled parts?

Would you go to a restaurant and demand to know why the dishwasher is not cooking your meal?

 

Why do people not realize this of tech companies?

That just because you work in one does not automagically make you know all the kinds of things those nerdy kids in children's cartoons know...

People have specialties.

 

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Missapplication of manpower is as old as the application of manpower. I'm not sure tech companies are worse than others. My Dad had lots of related stories about the military during WWII.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

Missapplication of manpower is as old as the application of manpower.

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It's been years since I've had a manpower application that wasn't rejected.

...Dres

[Ceka Cianci]

Wow they totally pulled all those stickies that were at the topof the forum.

:smileysurprised:

[Pamela Galli]

Wow, thats what I'm talkin bout -- not just talk, but action.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Wow, thats what I'm talkin bout -- not just talk, but action.

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It's been years since I've seen any action.

...Dres  (Okay... I'll stop.)

[Derek Torvalar]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Wow, thats what I'm talkin bout -- not just talk, but action.

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It's been years since I've seen any action.

...Dres  (Okay... I'll stop.)

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LOL Salacious Lover of Ubiquitous Tittilation! 

(bleep that mofo)

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Wow, thats what I'm talkin bout -- not just talk, but action.

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It's been years since I've seen any action.

...Dres  (Okay... I'll stop.)

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LOL Salacious Lover of Ubiquitous Tittilation! 

(bleep that mofo)

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...Dres

[LlazarusLlong]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Wow, thats what I'm talkin bout -- not just talk, but action.

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The stickies got removed very soon after my own thread was instigated, suggesting such action was a necessary first step in cleaning up the forums.

I am also waiting on a review of the forum topics so that it is easier for noobs and "experts" alike to be able to identify appropriate non-GD forums to dump their rubbish in.

So do you (or anyone else)  have any further requests for action that Llazarus might use his influential neurolinguistic techniques to effect?

[Coby Foden]

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LlazarusLlong wrote:

So do you (or anyone else)  have any further requests for action that Llazarus might use his influential neurolinguistic techniques to effect?

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Ok, here goes:

Under the Commerce Forum category there are only three forums areas.

Merchants

Discussion area for inworld and Marketplace merchants to exchange business and marketing ideas.

    

Inworld Employment

Get an inworld job or hire a Resident.

    

Wanted

Are you searching for something you just can't find? Post it here!

 

Where are the buyers going to discuss about their ideas and experiences?

There is no other place at present except the General Discussion Forum. :smileywink:

How about adding one more under Commerce forum category? Something like:

Buyers

Discussion area for anything related to inworld and Marketplace purchases and purchasing.

 

[Pamela Galli]

Yes, I have been mentioning this in other threads, and how the situation evolved. We need a general Commerce thread as well as Merchants. We have a Shopping thread somewhere but I think it is about recommending certain stores (something that is IMO against guidelines but I digress).

[Derek Torvalar]

Well my attempt to alleviate the boredom here was stymied as my thread entitled 'Office Politics Make Strange Bedfellows' was deleted without notification or explanation.

Empty gestures and plus ca change etc etc etc.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Yes, I have been mentioning this in other threads, and how the situation evolved. We need a general Commerce thread as well as Merchants. We have a Shopping thread somewhere but I think it is about recommending certain stores (something that is IMO against guidelines but I digress).

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I just looked at WoW's forums again. They've got 35 forums of the nature we've got here, 15 forums dealing with "Classes" which may be some kind of game role, and nearly 300 "Realms" forums, which I imagine are local RPG social subgroups. I don't know know those forums are created, but it seems to me that if you want to make an out-world networking tool attractive to residents, you'd want some way for those self-same residents to participate in the creation of specialized places to convene. Then, when you, Coby and others identify a need for a place to discuss a certain topic, you make it.

The user run pro/tech forums I inhabit all have volunteer moderators who're able to create new subforms when the need arises.

[Pamela Galli]

At the very least, volunteer moderators would be a good idea -- no one seems to be managing the forum much now.  I am sure there are selfless people willing to moderate -- after all some handle Customer Support in Answers for free.