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Phil Deakins

SL2 and potential losses - the facts

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


irihapeti wrote:


Dillon Levenque wrote:


Heart Brimmer wrote:

No.

I was going to type 'aye' because I agreed with your post, but then realized in this context it was a bad choice.

Instead, I'll also say:
No
.

so yes to the no yes

(:

Ditto!

Can I third your motion and bring it up for a vote?

Oooooooh, I didn't know Martians could make those motions.

... swoons.

 

Well, they appear to be somewhat arithmetically challenged. The Martian was actually fifth, not third. Heart, me, irihapeti, you, Martian.

 

Edited to correct spelling irihapeti's name incorrectly even though it was right there in the quoted part to look at. Wish I'd noticed that before Perrie 'archived'. Sorry, E. I hope my original spelling isn't some horrible Maori insult.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


irihapeti wrote:


Dillon Levenque wrote:


Heart Brimmer wrote:

No.

I was going to type 'aye' because I agreed with your post, but then realized in this context it was a bad choice.

Instead, I'll also say:
No
.

so yes to the no yes

(:

Ditto!

Can I third your motion and bring it up for a vote?

Oooooooh, I didn't know Martians could make those motions.

... swoons.

 

Well, they appear to be somewhat arithmetically challenged. The Martian was actually fifth, not third. Heart, me, irihati, you, Martian.

I was just trying to cut in line........

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The new grid is NOT SL2 but an entire new completely different virtual world with the working name of Sansara.  If you decide to go there you will still be able to be in SL and use your inventory here. You don't even have to migrate to Sansara.  It is also going to be several years before you will probably want to, if you do at all.  It will take a while for creators to produce the wide variety of content SL has.

If you decided to go to IMVU which is another completely different virtual world, you wouldn't expect to carry your SL inventory there would you?  Just because it is the same company that runs SL and Sansara, it is no different.

If you don't want to start over with a new inventory, stay in SL and enjoy what you have here.  LL said SL is NOT going anywhere unless it becomes unprofitable to run;  but that has always been the case so nothing new there.

 

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You seem to have got hold of the wrong end of the stick about what I want to do, Amethyst. Read my post - the first in this thread - to understand.

About 'SL2': back when this thread was started, that's what we called it. It was long before the name Sansara (which I've never heard before) came along, but you know that, don't you? ;)

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As a business owner I understand the need to change, but why not make what you have better. You already have a community of people who have put a great deal of their time and money into SL, as you remarked. But what you forget is when y ou shaft every one of those people who have put their hard earned time and money into SL, what ever makes you think that any of them would ever trust LL again noty to just trash whatever time and expense they might spend on your new venture? You speak of SL 1 as if you cant fix the problems. Well if you give up on it, then surely it will not survive. So I dont see how you can expect your SL 2 to fair any better. As  you sdaid it would take years to build and why would anyone trust you again to stand behind what your selling all of us?

 

Your responses to people saying "Did you really expect Sl to last forever...." hmmm well.. when I joined SL it was being touted as "The Future of the Internet" So would someone who joins an effort to develop "The Future of the Internet" think the company who is developing it had a long term plan to support it ? I think so... but in LLs case it had always been to take the easy road and develop the gee whiz feastures over a stable platform. You dont seem to ask residents the ones heavily invested how to add on you just go off on new tangents and let the chips fall where they may.

 

LL has always had the "Not invented here"  attitude which is so painfully obvious in these forums where you have shills who flame any nay sayers rather than  furthering discussion and involving your CLIENTS. This effort will be no different. LL sees itself as the Illuminati  who are above the pee ons who actually make the community work...and that is your achillies heel. You arent. My advice and you will surely flame me is to listen and work with your community rather than trash it. You say SL1 will continue but you know full well if you remove the people and slowly stop supporting it, it will die. If you cant make the largest virtuial world work...why should I believe you can do any better in your new foray into SL2?

 

One other thought comes to mind and that is, why can't Sansara be added to SL instead of being thought of as a  totally separate entity? so that residents of SL would then have something new to enjoy, without wiping out the foundation we have all worked so hard for so long to build? Why can't LL commit to supporting the world that they have built? Have you guys given up? That surely isn't a recipe for success in any venture. I will wait and se, but I am sure this post will be viewed as negative and flagged, removed or flamed. So go ahead.

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It's not MY SL1 and SL2. I am not LL :)

My understanding of SL2 is that it will be streets ahead of SL1 and, therefore, it's probable that SL1 can't be made to match what they're doing. SL1's systems are probably way too entrenched.

Don't forget that SL1 will not be closing its doors when SL2 comes along. SL1 will continue as normal and, if my memory is correct, it will be supported as normal.

I am a business owner too, and I've enjoyed what i got from the money I put in. Not very much paid in, I know, because my business became profitable pretty much instantaneously. But the point is that everyone who puts money into SL, does so for the enjoyment it brings at the time, and in the near future. They don't put money in as a long-term investment. And since SL1 won't be closing its doors when SL2 comes along, there will be plenty of time to get the enjoyment out of any money that's put in even at that time.

Don't forget that LL have stated that they have no plans to close SL1, and that SL1 and SL2 will both run. They said they would only close SL1 if and when it becomes unprofitable; i.e. when it's fading away.

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ETA: You've added 2 whole paragraphs to your post. I'm not going over them, so anything in them that's addressed to me, won't be responded to.

The facts are clear. The objections are selfishness imo. I.e. what about me me me - and people like me, of course :)

And btw, you mentioned trust concerning LL. I do not support LL - not one little bit - and I don't trust the company as far as I could spit. I'm dead against that company. The facts about SL1 and SL2, as we understand them, are simply facts, and are nothing to do with trust.

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Dear Phil,

 

If you don't love LL, then why is it you decide to involve yourself on the side of LL in most these posts? What makes you think you can speak for all residents expectations either? You can't. All any business owner wants and needs it stability and as a company thats supposdly the future of the internet, I believe they do have a responsibility to those that have been here.

 

LL will never succeed long term of they fail to ask for and sincerely listen to the input of their own users. I am all for new technology. I just think SL2 should be an addition to SL 1 not a replacement. If they can make SL 2 so much better then they should ber able to upgrade SL 1 as well. Another assumption you make that I question.

 

What makes you think y ou can speak for all users in SL and also for the company? Big ego, but not much on substance..

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For real substance, you'll need to read my posts and stop using your imagination ;)

I don't speak for SL or for all users. I speak for myself; i.e. my own, thought-out views and opinions. In this case, they are about LL and all users. On the other hand, you don't appear to have any thoughts that are anything other than about yourself (and, of course, others like you ;) ). That's why you you've already started to inject insults (the very last sentence you wrote). I've only spoken about the facts, i.e. substance, whereas all you seem to able to write about is yourself - how it might affect you, etc. Oh. You did suggest that LL could morph SL1 into SL2, but that would be for your own benefit, and, as far as any of us know, is completely outside the realms of possibility.

You may be getting confused by the use of 'SL1' and 'SL2', and thinking that SL2 will be a major update for SL1. It won't. It will be something completely different, just like other 3D worlds are completely different. For instance, you can't take SL and update it into, say, Blue Mars. They are simply too different to each other for that to be realistically possible. What could have happened when Blue Mars was created, is create it so that it can use certain things that were created in a different world. And what do you know. That's exactly what LL is doing :)

So don't think of SL2 as a souped-up SL1. I will very very different.

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Hi Phil,

 

This discussion shouldnt really be about you and me? It should stick to what we think of the direction LL is headed. You say my thoughts are about me and others like me but isnt that exactly what this is supposed to be? Or is it really meant to be a place for cheerleaders to tout something LL hasnt even defined well yet?

All I said is I think LL should provide stability and a continuum of SL rather than its replacement. It is being said that it will require or make use of Occulus glasses...how many users do you suppose will shell out that kind of money and have to completely start over from scratch as well as possibly do a computer upgrade to use the new SL.? Only a small fraction I think. As I said, I think SL 2, or Sansara or whatever else they will rename it in the coming weeks or months should be an addition to not a subsitution for SL 1.

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I had a couple more questions about the new Sansara if anyone knows:

 

1. Is there an official launch date for the beta and then the full version?

2. Will LSL still be used or will the new system use universal computing languages so as to be more in line with rest of the world?

3. Will Linden Dollars be used and if so their exchange rate the same?

4. Will Linden Labs drop the prices of their monthly tier for SL 1 (Mainland and Estate) since they are undermining its value by doing their damndest to get people to leave?

5. Will there still be any "Mainland" for those of us vehicle lovers, planes, sailors etc to use? If not what happens to that segment?

6.  Will alts and bots be allowed in the new SL?

7. Will Linden Labs report to the public what their figures are so those of us who feel they got worked over now will have some warning when SL 2 fades to SL 3?

8. Does Linden Labs support the idea of a user run community much like Open Source...or do they plan to control everytthing in SL 2?

9. Will SL 2 be involved in Hypergrid or whatever technology could link it with other virtual worlds?

I'm sure more will come to mind, but I hope we can have a civil discussion without any flames.

 

Thanks

 

 

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Weston Lane wrote:

I had a couple more questions about the new Sansara if anyone knows:

 

1. Is there an official launch date for the beta and then the full version?

Nobody knows -- Sansar is very early in its development.

2. Will LSL still be used or will the new system use universal computing languages so as to be more in line with rest of the world?

No LSL -- word is that C# will be used.

3. Will Linden Dollars be used and if so their exchange rate the same?

LL says Lindens will still be used. As for the exchange rate ... who knows?

4. Will Linden Labs drop the prices of their monthly tier for SL 1 (Mainland and Estate) since they are undermining its value by doing their damndest to get people to leave?

LL has already said there will be no mainland. My guess is that Sansar is LL's new virtual world hosting product. Companies will come to them (LL hopes) to host virtual worlds. Perhaps some company will use Sansar to build an SL-like virtual world with mainland.

5. Will there still be any "Mainland" for those of us vehicle lovers, planes, sailors etc to use? If not what happens to that segment?

See above

6.  Will alts and bots be allowed in the new SL?

*Way* too early to know that.

7. Will Linden Labs report to the public what their figures are so those of us who feel they got worked over now will have some warning when SL 2 fades to SL 3?

Magic 8 Ball says ... Not likely. Again, who knows?

8. Does Linden Labs support the idea of a user run community much like Open Source...or do they plan to control everytthing in SL 2?

By the way, it is definitely not SL2. As for how the community is run, that's would be up to the experience owners. Ebbe at one point said experience owners could use LL's registration system or do their own. If the experience owners have that level of control then they're the ones who'll decide how things are run in their 'experience'.

9. Will SL 2 be involved in Hypergrid or whatever technology could link it with other virtual worlds?

I haven't heard anything definitive about it. My guess is no.

I'm sure more will come to mind, but I hope we can have a civil discussion without any flames.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

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Weston Lane wrote:

Hi Phil,

 

This discussion shouldnt really be about you and me? It should stick to what we think of the direction LL is headed. You say my thoughts are about me and others like me but isnt that exactly what this is supposed to be? Or is it really meant to be a place for cheerleaders to tout something LL hasnt even defined well yet?

All I said is I think LL should provide stability and a continuum of SL rather than its replacement
. It is being said that it will require or make use of Occulus glasses...how many users do you suppose will shell out that kind of money and have to completely start over from scratch as well as possibly do a computer upgrade to use the new SL.? Only a small fraction I think. As I said, I think SL 2, or Sansara or whatever else they will rename it in the coming weeks or months should be an addition to not a subsitution for SL 1.

Hi Weston.

I did not want the discussion to be about you and me but, to be perfectly honest, I've seen loads of 'me me me' posts on this subject, and your post that restarted this thread looked like just another one. The 'me me me' posts are all about the loss of the money that 'I' have put into SL Your post looked very much like that. My point about that all along is that we put money in for the enjoyment it buys now and in the near future. If we later have to abandon it, we've had our enjoyment from it so, imo, it's no loss at all. Then it became personal about me with your 'ego and substance' statement. That looked like the slippery slope but I'm glad it didn't turn out that way.

LL isn't providing SL's "replacement". They are coming up with something quite different to run as well as SL. They have said that they have no intention of closing SL until it becomes unworthwhile to keep open. As long as it has a population, and LL is making reasonable money from it, SL will continue. That's pretty much what they've said. They are unlikely to add significant new stuff to it, of course, but as long as it's worthwhile, they will run it and support it, including "stability" as applicable. That's what they've led us to believe. Apart from anything else, SL2 might be a flop, and they are not going to close their means of making money (SL) before SL2 is making plenty of money.

Note: SL2 is what we called it in this forum. It's not what LL called it, and it's a bit misleading because it makes the new thing sound like SL with some great new bells and whistles. If it were anything like that, then your idea that they could improve the SL would be very valid. But, judging by what they said, it isn't going to be like SL at all or, if it is, then it will be so different in radical ways, that upgrading SL wasn't really a sensible possibility.

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Hi all,

First, let me thank Parhelion for such a thorough review and answer to the questions I had. I am deeply saddened by SLs decision not to support mainland and for several reasons NOT  involving me... (in case Phil's reading which I hope he is). I came to mainland before the evolution of Blake Sea and at the time Linden Labs had gone from a positive media blitz to negative reviews as just a place where people could go for sex. I developed friends in LL concierge and kept suggesting they extend mainland to include more room for sailors and aviators for several reasons I still think are valid. For one many people come to SL and dont know how to get around and when you leave someone with only "teleporting" they tend to gravitate to the lowest common deonominator which is sex. Traveling around mainland gives people the chance to see the good the bad and the ugly of what a large community can create  on its own  (with a little help from LL) and has lead many users to become creators and become interested in land and other features of SL. In other words it gives people ideas and it gives them an alternative to the social and sex scene.

As for SL2 vs Sansara to me thats just semantics no matter how different Sansara is for several reasons. LL is known and will always be known for SL first and foremost. No matter how they try to distance themselves from what may be (guessing) a failed business model.... or if not failed.. they have given up on it.. they dont appear to be able to support both worlds... so they will not update SL ( bad decision) and they will pour money into a total unknown (another bad decision?). I agree that LL must do something if the business model of SL is failing, that is a given. But whatever else Linden Labs does it will ALWAYS be first and foremost the inventors of Secondlife. They have a captive audience and have devoted 12+ years to this venture. So they decide that they can't do both ventures because they are losing money on SL or because they can't get more funding so they stop supporting and stop innovating it before they create their bridge to the new entity? Of course it will die or at the very least not perform any better. But why kill it off, why stop innovating until they are sure that Sansara will be a go?

Issues I see with Sansara, from what little I know of it, are what will people do there? Creators create things for people to use. Its not all just clothes and new skins. What is the intent? What will draw the crowds? Because lets face facts; while being able to use Occulus glasses may be a really "Gee Whiz" thing.. Only an extrmely small portion of people will ever buy them. How many people now, log on from work, from their phones, from home and do so surreptitiously? You think people at work are all going to put on Occulus glasses before they log on SL? Are people going to foot a huge expense of computer upgrade and expensive glasses as well as new everything for their avi? I dont think the normal user in SL nor the Noobs to Sansara will do that is my point. How much controi does LL have over Occulus? what iof they innovate Occulus glasses ( new tedhnologies tewnd to do that) and the new direction doesnt mesh with LLs Sansara... ? So many questions, and they still have an audience here in SL. So all I am suggesting in my opinion it would be good to keep their present audience in the best health possible by continuing substantial and meaningful support of SL until they are sure they have enough momentum. Although I dont agree or understand why they would kill mainland a good deal of what people come to Sl for has to do with vehicles of one sort or another so how will that work?

Thanks for those who take the time to read this even if no one in LL will or ever cares about anything we think or say here.

:smileyhappy:

 



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You seem to have misunderstood Parhelion's reply to you about mainland. SL's mainland won't change. The reply was about SL2.

Just out of interest, isn't Sansara the orginal/oldest mainland continent? I had a look on the Web and that's what it appears to be. So, if that's the case, I don't altogetrher understand your posts concerning it. You seem to be using the it as the name of SL2, which may be right, of course.

Honestly, I would stop being so concerned about SL2. If you prefer SL1, and I've no doubt that loads of people will prefer it, and even more will continue using it. SL isn't going away until such times as it is no longer financially worthwhile keeping open. At that time the population will have shrunk dramatically and you will probably have moved on too. We all like SL. That's why we use it. As long as we prefer it to somewhere else, including SL2, we'll continue to use it.

Don't argue against LL creating an advanced world. If they don't do it, another company will and, if it's really good, we'll all be off to it and SL will have to shut down. The population in general won't show much loyalty to LL if something else that's much better comes along. We'll go. LL knows that. That's why they are moving ahead themselves. They are the ones who said that, if they don't do it, someone else will. And they know there's plenty of negativity in the SL population towards their company, so they can be quite sure that there won't be massive loyalty shown towards them when something better shows up. I would think that most of SL's population doesn't have any bias one way or the other towards LL. So it seems obvious that if something much better shows up, they'll be off, and maybe keep a little bit going in SL. So far, nothing better has shown up, but it will. So don't blame LL for trying to be the ones to create it, especially as they won't be closing SL when it happens. If it turns out that the new world doesn't attract the masses, then that may be the one to close and SL will continue.

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Thank you Coby. (I've missed you :) )

It sounds like SL2 won't be a virtual world in itself - not like SL is. It sounds like it will be a system where people can create virtual worlds similar to SL - "experiences". Maybe there will be a basic SL-like world though. I suppose there has to be.

It doesn't sound like something that the SL population will rush to en-masse and stay when it launches, because it won't come into its own until people create their 'experiences' for others to go to. In other words, it doesn't sound like it will be direct rival to SL.

Those are my first impressions, having just read the page you linked to, but I'm sure that it's been discussed a lot while I've been away from the forum. At first reading, it doesn't sound like something that would particularly interest me very much.

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I've had an account for a while, however I literally just started playing these past couple months. I haven't had enough time invested to enjoy the things i've purchased. I agree with the Sassy Romano's comment completely. There's only so much I will take. I don't invest money into ANY game or ANY program period. This is the one thing i've found that i can enjoy. If they want to build a new SL then fine, but leave the old platform for the rest of us. Everyone I've heard and i mean EVERYONE, random users everywhere are complaining about the new SL2 and noone is wanting to be a part of it because we'd have to leave everything we've worked for behind us. Years spent building and well spending. Sure I'd love to see an improvement in the graphics and everything else, but my laptop is not the best and SL is one of the few games it actually can run because its a bit behind compared to others. So if the our world here is torn down, then it will be just that. I'm done customizing and buying, i'm ready to enjoy the things i've purchased, but now i hear it could all be taken from me. 

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Bunny420Green wrote:

I've had an account for a while, however I literally just started playing these past couple months. I haven't had enough time invested to enjoy the things i've purchased. I agree with the Sassy Romano's comment completely. There's only so much I will take. I don't invest money into ANY game or ANY program period.
So, you don't buy any games?
This is the one thing i've found that i can enjoy. If they want to build a new SL then fine,
They aren't. It's a completely new virtual world.
but leave the old platform for the rest of us.
They will, as long is it turns a profit.
Everyone I've heard and i mean EVERYONE, random users everywhere are complaining about the new SL2 and no one is wanting to be a part of it because we'd have to leave everything we've worked for behind us.
Apparently EVERYONE you have talked to is an idiot. We have zero facts about Sansar. Seeing as it hasn't hit the beta stage yet the only people with any real info are LL, and they haven't spilled yet.
Years spent building and well spending. Sure I'd love to see an improvement in the graphics and everything else,
Whats wrong with the graphics? SL looks awesome in Ultra.
but my laptop is not the best and SL is one of the few games
It's not a game, it's a virtual world
it actually can run because its a bit behind compared to others. So if the our world here is torn down, then it will be just that. I'm done customizing and buying,
Then you will be one of the causes of the downfall of SL. If people stop buying things, what reason is there for merchants to stay and pay for land?
i'm ready to enjoy the things i've purchased, but now i hear it could all be taken from me. 
Nothing will be taken away from you, so long as SL turns a profit. WHich means that people need to keep the status quo going and BUY THINGS!!


 

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