Gavin Hird Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Hippasus Alter wrote: Linden Lab wrote: Hi Yingzi, Skill gaming is defined as "a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. " Thank you, Hi The mentioning of International law makes things complicated to the point of "legal impossibilities". I am specially talking about your (LL) legal demands for the Operators ( 4.a.(iii) in the application form) "(iii) A Reasoned Legal Opinion that describes each Skill Game (including detailed operational descriptions) and provides a detailed analysis of its compliance with applicable United States and international law; " This is a request for "Reasoned Legal Opinion" by attorneys specialized in international litigation. These are highly specialized and costly demands. Please have your legal adviser provide us with details on what will be needed in terms of international law. Greetings from Greece Most likely the Greek legislation in addition to the US legilsation is applicable to you. There might be some borderline cases where EU legislation also may come into play if there are directives that are yet to be worked into the Greek legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybloomer Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 WDL Bayn wrote: Hi LL, Coming back to my original question, and I'll have to agree with Gaia Gabe here, how would we know what games should we apply for if the approved game list is still empty? It's creators 1st, then operators. We can't have both the same deadline as it's nonsense. What is no game will pass your validation until Aug. 1st? Thanks, WDL Bayn I think you're thinking about it more complicated than it really is. I would say for the current time since there are no approved creators or games listed on the corresponding listing pages, I would just have the lawyer state for that part that you would be lawfully abiding to and operating any games (from their approved creators) that make it to the Linden list only, citing the link to that page. And you would state the same in your affidavit also. Getting the extra legal piece from an attorney is a safeguard to them, where if you were to have the guts to operate unlawfully outside of the scope in which Linden sets, not only would you be 100% liable but your lawyer as well since giving that "reasoned opinion" translates to a confirmation that you would be running your business correctly within policies and laws that are in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Thibodeaux Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 So any game really.. Zyngo, and the countless other games people play.. Even if they are freeplay.. Pay $1... and then it refunds you the money.. If it pays you out another $1 or a random amount, it has to be in the gaming region? Anywhere outside the gaming region will be a breach of the TOS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Carl Thibodeaux wrote: So any game really.. Zyngo, and the countless other games people play.. Even if they are freeplay.. Pay $1... and then it refunds you the money.. If it pays you out another $1 or a random amount, it has to be in the gaming region? Anywhere outside the gaming region will be a breach of the TOS? I don't think LL will give you a specific opinion, Carl. They'll just refer you back to the various wiki articles. Among these is Linden Lab Official: Policy Regarding Wagering in Second Life. This includes the proviso that "If entry is truly "free" (as with a promotional sweepstakes), and the game's operator requires no "consideration" or payment from other players or entrants, then that activity will likely be permitted, assuming compliance with all other applicable laws." I'd say that requiring a payment (even one that's immediately returned) rules out that exception. Obviously in recent years the rules on gambling haven't been enforced as strictly as they might have been, and only time will tell if that's changed. Why require an immediately-refundable payment if the device is supposed to be free to play? Why not simply have the avatar touch the device to register, so the script knows to whom to give out a random payment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier10 Albert Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 tall games that you pay and we RECEIVE Ls should be in games area and the owner operator after all those I read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secrets88 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 A sworn affidavit must be notarized, I believe ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybloomer Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 secrets88 wrote: A sworn affidavit must be notarized, I believe ? Yes sworn affidavits must be witnessed and notarized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liska Fuchs Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I have not seen anything here about tournament boards. I play En Garde, and I joust. Regular En Garde tournaments are held, in which the entrants pay a small fee, and the money collected is distributed among the top winners. The pay-in feature is not a part of the En Garde game itself, but is handled through the tournament board. Jousting is similar, although the pay-in is usually voluntary (and as there are no cards or dice, it is more clearly a game of skill rather than a game of chance). Would such tournament boards be affected by this new TOS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippasus Alter Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Gaia Gabe wrote: Hi Linden Lab. I am speaking as a future applicant to become an operator. Would you please consider to give us a longer deadline? Actually we have only 3 weeks and agoust holidays are next door. Creators too are in a total mess. Operators can not move on without creators. You are updating frequently FAQ but we still have so many doubts and questions. Please also consider 2 different deadline for creators and operators. My attorney will not produce any document till we have the availability of creators documentation. Thank you in advance I agree with all the above , the deadline is very close and almost imposable to cover all the demands an specially getting any kind of legal opinion on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybloomer Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Liska, the best way to address that and all the other items people have been asking about in this thread is through the definition of "Skill Game" and "Skill Gaming" in the new Second Life Skill Gaming Policy. Here's the definition in it's entirety as posted by Linden a few times here too: "“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law." For simplicity sake, I'm going to rearrange it into a form that everyone can use as a litmus test to figure out if the object or game they have in question falls under as a skill game. “Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming”1) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play 2) provides a payout in Linden Dollars 3) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance 4) legally authorized (allowed) by applicable United States and international law If all four (4) parts above are TRUE, then the object in question is a skill game or involved in skill gaming and subject to the new policy that starts on August 1st. If any or all of those four (4) parts are FALSE, then the object in question would not be a skill game or involved in skill gaming and either: a) "chance game" which is prohibited in SL as stated in the Wagering Policy b) "freeplay" object which you don't have to input any money to play or use c) other object that has no game aspect (like vendors, tipjars, etc.), illegal or legal This is the evaluation that Linden wants you to do and is another reason (aside from liability) why they reptitively paste that section of the policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morenda Aljon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Every gaming sim I know has on every game contests and rewards. These systems pay extra money to the players based on how much they play, how much they pay in, their scores or a mixture of these. In most situations, these contests and rewards pay about 10 to 15% of the total amounts paid in back to the players. So the amounts involved are much higher than the remaining profit. There is a good reason these contests and rewards exist. They make gaming in SL fun. They also definitly add an extra level of skill to the total gaming experience. Many players have strategies to get the max out of these rewards and contests. They would not play the games without good contests. Many reward systems are very straightforward, giving a player back a percentage of the amount he played the previous day. Are these systems: A. Not a skill game because there is no pay in and since there is nothing random at them at all also not a game of chance. B. Also a skill game and thus requiring approvement. Which is odd cause there is no pay in. C. Not existing anymore after august 1 because the operator is not allowed to make the payments to the players and having an alt do so is also a no-no? D. Something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 daisybloomer wrote: secrets88 wrote: A sworn affidavit must be notarized, I believe ? Yes sworn affidavits must be witnessed and notarized. Bullshiat. Stop giving legal advice. The requirements for an affidavit will vary by State in the U.S. and I'd have no idea what it is for other Countries. That is a question that needs answered by LL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francone Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 totally agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yingzi Xue Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Perrie Juran wrote: daisybloomer wrote: secrets88 wrote: A sworn affidavit must be notarized, I believe ? Yes sworn affidavits must be witnessed and notarized. Bullshiat. Stop giving legal advice. The requirements for an affidavit will vary by State in the U.S. and I'd have no idea what it is for other Countries. That is a question that needs answered by LL. I'm sure LL is going to list the affidavit requirements for ever state. lol It's up to YOU to find out what is required in your state for an affidavit to be properly prepared. Now if LL lists one common standard, sure... but that's not likely to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Perrie Juran wrote: The requirements for an affidavit will vary by State in the U.S. and I'd have no idea what it is for other Countries. That is a question that needs answered by LL. Wouldn't it have to fulfill the requirements of California law for it to be recognized in a Californian court. California law is the governing law of the general TOS, so I suppose that applies to these filings as well. – Just my L$1, but yeah, LL must clarify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Perrie Juran wrote: daisybloomer wrote: secrets88 wrote: A sworn affidavit must be notarized, I believe ? Yes sworn affidavits must be witnessed and notarized. Bullshiat. Stop giving legal advice. The requirements for an affidavit will vary by State in the U.S. and I'd have no idea what it is for other Countries. That is a question that needs answered by LL. How are LL expected to know what the legal requirements are for swearing an affidavit all the different US states, let alone other countries? I'd have thought the obvious person to ask about the proper proceedure would be the applicant's own legal advisor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Monday Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV, but I did a quick Google check and there doesn't seem to be a set affidavit for the entire US. I would assume, as some have speculated, that you need to follow California Law. Found this on Legalzoom.com....not sure if it'll help but might point you in the right direction http://www.hofj.org/virtualoffice_files/california-general-affidavit.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Gavin Hird wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: The requirements for an affidavit will vary by State in the U.S. and I'd have no idea what it is for other Countries. That is a question that needs answered by LL. Wouldn't it have to fulfill the requirements of California law for it to be recognized in a Californian court. California law is the governing law of the general TOS, so I suppose that applies to these filings as well. – Just my L$1, but yeah, LL must clarify. The point about affidavits is that making one that contains a statement you know to be false, or think might be, is normally an offence in the jurisdiction where you swear it. Presumably the point of having applicants swear an affidavit is to discourage them from lying in their descriptions of how the apparatus works and, if necessary, to demonstrate to the relevant US authorities that LL have done all they can to ensure that applicants tell the truth, rather than to persuade a Californian court of the truthfulness of their assertions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Innula Zenovka wrote: Gavin Hird wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: The requirements for an affidavit will vary by State in the U.S. and I'd have no idea what it is for other Countries. That is a question that needs answered by LL. Wouldn't it have to fulfill the requirements of California law for it to be recognized in a Californian court. California law is the governing law of the general TOS, so I suppose that applies to these filings as well. – Just my L$1, but yeah, LL must clarify. The point about affidavits is that making one that contains a statement you know to be false, or think might be, is normally an offence in the jurisdiction where you swear it. Presumably the point of having applicants swear an affidavit is to discourage them from lying in their descriptions of how the apparatus works and, if necessary, to demonstrate to the relevant US authorities that LL have done all they can to ensure that applicants tell the truth, rather than to persuade a Californian court of the truthfulness of their assertions. And since the only relevant US authorities in this matter are representatives for the state of California, and California requrements are so and so, that is the only thing that is relevant – regardless if my country says I can file a company stamped napkin or whatnot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Gavin Hird wrote: Innula Zenovka wrote: Gavin Hird wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: The requirements for an affidavit will vary by State in the U.S. and I'd have no idea what it is for other Countries. That is a question that needs answered by LL. Wouldn't it have to fulfill the requirements of California law for it to be recognized in a Californian court. California law is the governing law of the general TOS, so I suppose that applies to these filings as well. – Just my L$1, but yeah, LL must clarify. The point about affidavits is that making one that contains a statement you know to be false, or think might be, is normally an offence in the jurisdiction where you swear it. Presumably the point of having applicants swear an affidavit is to discourage them from lying in their descriptions of how the apparatus works and, if necessary, to demonstrate to the relevant US authorities that LL have done all they can to ensure that applicants tell the truth, rather than to persuade a Californian court of the truthfulness of their assertions. And since the only relevant US authorities in this matter are representatives for the state of California, and California requrements are so and so, that is the only thing that is relevant – regardless if my country says I can file a company stamped napkin or whatnot? California would have to accept affidavits from any other US state because of the "Full Faith and Credit" clause of the US Constitution. The US is a signatory to the Hague Convention so they'll accept an international affidavit with an "apostille", which is a fairly routine additional stamp. http://www.hcch.net/upload/abc12e.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Gabe Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I do hope it is as you said, because Italian law allows italians to file auto certification . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Gavin Hird wrote: Innula Zenovka wrote: Gavin Hird wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: The requirements for an affidavit will vary by State in the U.S. and I'd have no idea what it is for other Countries. That is a question that needs answered by LL. Wouldn't it have to fulfill the requirements of California law for it to be recognized in a Californian court. California law is the governing law of the general TOS, so I suppose that applies to these filings as well. – Just my L$1, but yeah, LL must clarify. The point about affidavits is that making one that contains a statement you know to be false, or think might be, is normally an offence in the jurisdiction where you swear it. Presumably the point of having applicants swear an affidavit is to discourage them from lying in their descriptions of how the apparatus works and, if necessary, to demonstrate to the relevant US authorities that LL have done all they can to ensure that applicants tell the truth, rather than to persuade a Californian court of the truthfulness of their assertions. And since the only relevant US authorities in this matter are representatives for the state of California, and California requrements are so and so, that is the only thing that is relevant – regardless if my country says I can file a company stamped napkin or whatnot? LL are presumably concerned to ensure, if necessary, they can persuade a California court that they took pains to make sure you were telling the truth in your description of your game of skill. Most countries have some procedure for residents to make sworn statements of one kind or another. If your country has no such procedure, then you're probably out of luck with your application to register something as a game of skill with LL, I guess, unless you get a plane to California and find a notary public there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybloomer Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Perrie Juran wrote: daisybloomer wrote: secrets88 wrote: A sworn affidavit must be notarized, I believe ? Yes sworn affidavits must be witnessed and notarized. Bullshiat. Stop giving legal advice. The requirements for an affidavit will vary by State in the U.S. and I'd have no idea what it is for other Countries. That is a question that needs answered by LL. Really, I have it incorrect Perrie? Care to back it up? Go look up the definition of what a "sworn affidavit" is and let me know. Most if not all sworn affidavits all have the same component and procedure, which is have it signed before a witness (or notary) and having it notarized. The requirements that you might be talking about that differ by state may be those outside those two main things I mentioned. You might be getting mixed up with a "sworn statement" or "pledge" which don't require a notarization. On the e-Application Linden makes it clear that they want a "sworn affidavit" from the person applying to be a creator and/or operator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 daisybloomer wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: daisybloomer wrote: secrets88 wrote: A sworn affidavit must be notarized, I believe ? Yes sworn affidavits must be witnessed and notarized. Bullshiat. Stop giving legal advice. The requirements for an affidavit will vary by State in the U.S. and I'd have no idea what it is for other Countries. That is a question that needs answered by LL. Really, I have it incorrect Perrie? Care to back it up? Go look up the definition of what a "sworn affidavit" is and let me know. Most if not all sworn affidavits all have the same component and procedure, which is have it signed before a witness (or notary) and having it notarized. The requirements that you might be talking about that differ by state may be those outside those two main things I mentioned. You might be getting mixed up with a "sworn statement" or "pledge" which don't require a notarization. On the e-Application Linden makes it clear that they want a "sworn affidavit" from the person applying to be a creator and/or operator. First of all, see all comments between mine and yours. But since you asked, "Affidavits may be written in the first or third person, depending on who drafted the document. If in the first person, the document's component parts are: a commencement which identifies the "affiant of truth", generally stating that everything is true, under penalty of perjury, fine, or imprisonment; an attestation clause, usually a jurat, at the end certifying the affiant made oath and the date; and signatures of the author and witness. If an affidavit is notarized or authenticated, etc, etc" Pay attention to that big word "if" in the last line. It does not say "required." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affidavit Now can you show me a source that says, "All affidavits in the U.S. must be "notarized?" And even if you found one that still wouldn't answer what form the affidavit must take for International users. So it is again a question that Linden Lab needs to answer IF there is a required format for the affidavit. disclaimer: IANAL eta:shpellling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Gabe Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Question to LL manager Recently LL announced the born of a new SL , totally different from the existing one. Items will not be transferrable platform to platform. Old SL will be online , as far as I understood , till it is profitable for LL. The process to apply for new LL skill games policy will cost to operators and creators thousands USD. Will it be valid also for the new platform ? We should consider it carefully before investing our money. Thank you in advance for your reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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