Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Perhaps a few people in the world think of SL as a hive of sex, but the majority of the world's population hasn't heard of SL

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I don't know how destructive the stigma was, but it may have played it's part in causing that most people nowadays have not heard of SL, if that is true. Seems logical, when people don't spread the word about it anymore because of the stigma even if they go on using it.

[Phil Deakins]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

It is "

methinks you protest too much

"

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Or it may be, "Methinks thou protesteth too much"

[Gavin Hird]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Who said anything about a 7+ audience? That's just a figment of someone's imagination.

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There is a very close realtionship between 7+ audience and the pronounced desire to scale to hundreds of millions of users (on more platforms.)

[Phil Deakins]

As I said - a figment of someone's imagination

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

It's good to know that you spend most of your time elsewhere. Perhaps you could spend more of it there

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Imagine a new user stumbles upon this thread (which is linked in blogs etc.). Not only see they porn in SL vigorously defended, but also those who have a problem with it repeatedly told to go and stay away.

Will help the stigma a lot.

[Phil Deakins]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

It's good to know that you spend most of your time elsewhere. Perhaps you could spend more of it there

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Imagine a new user stumbles upon this thread (which is linked in blogs etc.). Not only see they porn in SL vigorously defended, but also those who have a problem with it repeatedly told to go and stay away.

Will help the stigma a lot.

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On the contrary. I think it would cauase more to stay than might otherwise have stayed. Remember human nature

[Gavin Hird]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

As I said - a figment of someone's imagination

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I can subscribe to that, and I referred to it a few pages back in the managment tossups we have seen. 

Now, back to the new world to chip away at the welcome ceremony for you guys when you are tired of – oh, what is the latest fad... Experience Keys. – That's a game changer.

[Phil Deakins]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Perhaps a few people in the world think of SL as a hive of sex, but the majority of the world's population hasn't heard of SL

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I don't know

how

destructive the stigma was, but it may have played it's part in causing that most people nowadays have not heard of SL, if that is true. Seems logical, when people don't spread the word about it anymore because of the stigma even if they go on using it.

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That's just wishful thinking on your part. Wishful because you'd like an alleged, but non-existant, stigma to have had an effect, but, since there is/was no stigma, except in the minds of a very few puritanically-minded people, it can't have had an effect.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

calling someone a misogynist

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I think I never called you that as a person, but expressed that I find certain behaviour or most pornography misogynic.

And yes, I find having a woman walk around in a slave collar indicates a fragile male ego. If you think that is an insult, report it.

 

Report it to whom? I don't report posts, i find that to be childish behavior unless it is spam or something children shouldn't see. 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

and their spouse a person who has mental issues

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You brought up, concerning the cannibalistic examples, that it would be no consent if someone agrees to that because sellf destructive behaviour would indicate mental issues. I expressed

in that logic

someone who leads a whole life in unilateral submission also does not consent to it because it can be seen as self destructive; later I made clear that of course I think there is consent in such cases, also in misogynic porn, and that I was only applying that logic. Again, if you see an insult here, report it.

 

Huge difference between a submissive and someone who consents to being eaten.. 

Again, you have no idea how BD/SM works. No one is a submissive 24/7. If that were the case then a mother who was submissive to her husband would also be submissive to their children and they would walk all over her. Or a manager who was submissive when they were with their dom, can not be submissive to their employees. People who participate in BD/SM are not always in their perspective roles. What would happen if a Dom was pulled over by a police officer who happened to be a submissive? Do you really think they wouldn't get a ticket?

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

you are being the one with the fragile ego here. All you have done is try and force your viewpoint on others. You are trying to suppress everyone that doesn't think like you.

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How do you "force" a viewpoint on someone? How do you "supress" someone in a forum? I may come across a bit dominant here and there (distributed equally to all genders, and only if they deserve it), but still. ;-)

 

Easily, many many people have given you viewpoints that differ from yours on how BD/SM actually works and all you have said is "NO, you are wrong! I am right!!" That is suppression. And repeating over and over that almost all porn is misogynistic is attempting to force someone to your viewpoint. You have ZERO evidence to back that up. Because it simply isn't true. 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

you don't think women should be allowed to be "submissives"

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No. There is not even a German law against it. They are free to do it. And I am free to express my opinion that it is a bad idea nevertheless.

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And all you are doing is making yourself sound like a nutjob. You remind me of the Westboro Baptist Church. They spout off about things they don't understand or like a lot too. We think they are a bunch of wackos here.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

There is currently no competition for SL, and the upcoming competition that is known about will come from LL, so it won't really be competition at all.

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Yeh, till you realize you'll have to leave your kink behind. ;-)

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LOL. I don't have a kink. I don't even do normal sex in SL, and I haven't done for years. I haven't been talking from my own desires. I've been talking from the point of view of common sense and the knowledge of human nature that we all possess.

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There is no common sense on which American legislation on sex and adult are built on. Every European knows that. That is what you are up against. Yup!

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I have no idea about U.S. laws on sex, so, since I'm a typical European, and I don't know that, I will say that you are wrong.

Also, I don't know of any significant differences between U.S. law and UK law, except one. If I remember rightly, it was posted in this thread that, in the U.S., depictions of child sex, such as cartoons, drawings, and things like that, are

legal

. It would include child avatars in sex acts. I'm certain that it's illegal here in the UK. I've no idea about the rest of Europe though. But I've only been talking about adult sex, so it doesn't play a part in what we're discussing now.

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I hope that is a typo because they are very much illegal in the US.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

I don't know

how

destructive

the stigma

was, but it

may have

played it's part in causing that most people nowadays have not heard of SL, if that is true.

Seems logical

,

when

people

don't spread the word about it

anymore

because of the stigma

even

if

they go on

using it

.

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Lol. This just a pile of your assumptions and inferences. You're making this up as you go along, basing absurd claim on top of absurd claim. None of this is logical, you're supplying your own narrative to events that you haven't got any data for.

Not bolded are Phil's assumptions (e.g. 'most people nowadays have not heard of SL').

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Except that Ebbe has already said that adult activities will be allowed in the new platform.. Since the CEO has stated they will be allowed, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU STILL ARGUEING ABOUT IT?

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He has not said that. He has said that all activities that are permissible under the law that goes on in SecondLife will be permissible in SLv2. 

BUT – and this is the culprit. What is permissible under the law is highly dependent of minimum age of entry to the service. If they go for a 7+ audience, it will be a VERY different reality than what is currently the case. 

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"Ebbe Linden wrote:

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Racheal Rexen wrote:

Hello Ebbe, thanks for taking the time to answer ours questions, My question is if the Adult Community will have a place in the new Virtual world? 

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We have no plans to disallow anything that's going on in SL and is legal. We're proud of the freedom we offer."

 

The minimum age to enter SL outside of schools is 16.. It is ILLEGAL in the US to engage in sexual activities with anyone under 18 if you are older than 18.. Sex is allowed in SL as long as both parties are over 18.

Why would that change if the age was dropped to 7+? Why would you think 7 year olds would be allowed in every area? Teens aren't allowed in M or A areas now, why would you assume the new platform would be different? Do you really think LL wants to attempt to regulate a platform that has adults and children mingling? Are you insane? They have enough issues with the one they have now.

[Phil Deakins]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

There is currently no competition for SL, and the upcoming competition that is known about will come from LL, so it won't really be competition at all.

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Yeh, till you realize you'll have to leave your kink behind. ;-)

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LOL. I don't have a kink. I don't even do normal sex in SL, and I haven't done for years. I haven't been talking from my own desires. I've been talking from the point of view of common sense and the knowledge of human nature that we all possess.

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There is no common sense on which American legislation on sex and adult are built on. Every European knows that. That is what you are up against. Yup!

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I have no idea about U.S. laws on sex, so, since I'm a typical European, and I don't know that, I will say that you are wrong.

Also, I don't know of any significant differences between U.S. law and UK law, except one. If I remember rightly, it was posted in this thread that, in the U.S., depictions of child sex, such as cartoons, drawings, and things like that, are

legal

. It would include child avatars in sex acts. I'm certain that it's illegal here in the UK. I've no idea about the rest of Europe though. But I've only been talking about adult sex, so it doesn't play a part in what we're discussing now.

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I hope that is a typo because they are very much illegal in the US.

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It wasn't a typo on my part. I thought I'd read that in this thread, but I may have misunderstood, misread, or someone got it wrong.

In that case, I know of no significant differences between the laws concerning sex in the U.S. and the UK.

ETA: Except what I've just read in a later post of yours - that the age of consent there is 18. Here it's 16.

[Gavin Hird]

SLv2 does not have anything. The only thing you can bring over is your name and purse. 

[Freya Mokusei]

It's good to see Ebbe recognises this as a user freedom issue. He aligns it immediately, even though this is muddy ground for US companies.

I don't see any claim that they'd consider changing the access rating to SL in a way that would inevitably reduce user freedom - in fact I see the opposite. It would make no sense to alienate so many over the minor gain that Lowest Common Denominator access would provide. LCD has never been the main target of LL, and a switch to this target wouldn't help them achieve better numbers.

Contrary to Gavin's earlier post, the exact quote makes clear that they wouldn't disallow anything that is currently legal - such as erotic adult content in an audience comprised of consenting adults.

\o/

[Phil Deakins]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

SLv2 does not have anything. The only thing you can bring over is your name and purse. 

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Even there, you are wrong. It's been stated that names and L$ will go over, but it was also said by Ebbe that some stuff would also go over but it's known what yet.

You're not getting very much right, are you?

[Gavin Hird]

But it makes a heck of a difference in the powerpoint charts presented to management and investors.

The alienation has already happened and will long since be over and done with when SLv2 is marketable. 

[Phil Deakins]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

But it makes a heck of a difference in the powerpoint charts presented to management and investors.

The alienation has already happened and will long since be over and done with when SLv2 is marketable. 

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What alienation? You're not talking about your imaginary stigma again, are you?

As far as Powerpoint charts are concerned, you'd be much better off leaving any thoughts on things like that to Linden Lab. You are not equipped with the knowlkedge to be able to do it.

[Gavin Hird]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Gavin Hird wrote:

SLv2 does not have anything. The only thing you can bring over is your name and purse. 

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Even there, you are wrong. It's been stated that names and L$ will go over, but it was also said by Ebbe that some stuff would also go over but it's known what yet.

You're not getting very much right, are you?

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Everything I have stated is correct, the rest is not known yet, or? :-)

[Phil Deakins]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Gavin Hird wrote:

SLv2 does not have anything. The only thing you can bring over is your name and purse. 

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Even there, you are wrong. It's been stated that names and L$ will go over, but it was also said by Ebbe that some stuff would also go over but it's known what yet.

You're not getting very much right, are you?

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Everything I have stated is correct, the rest is not known yet, or? :-)

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You said the ONLY thing you can bring over is your name and purse. You were wrong, and I told why you were wrong.

[Freya Mokusei]

Conjecture and guesswork, LL's investors were/are happy with the direction SL took by-and-large (at least, funds were not pulled).

Why have things changed? Old prudes aren't the only ones with money.

I echo Phil on this point - you're not the guy with the numbers and you seem irritable surrounding claims to provide evidence. You're not in LL's legal territory and you seem to have fundamental misunderstanding(s) regarding human nature/marketability. Listening to your marketing advice seems unwise.

Alienation hasn't occured, and it would make little financial sense to attempt this before release day. Small fringe groups raving about the fall of the sky are typical, always have been. Second Life also has a high churn of enthusiasm and creativity, and culturally a lot of the userbase gets annoyed when LL don't do as they would wish - there's a bonus if discontented individuals can convince others that this is a real effect (it's not). This isn't unsusual for any online service.

[Gavin Hird]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

     You said the ONLY thing you can bring over is your name and purse. You were wrong, and I told why you were wrong.

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I guess I should have said "the only thing currently known to man" is... – and I am sorry I forgot ego; I guess that transfers pretty well too ;-)

[Phil Deakins]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

     You said the ONLY thing you can bring over is your name and purse. You were wrong, and I told why you were wrong.

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I guess I should have said "the only thing currently known to man" is... – and I am sorry I forgot ego; I guess that transfers pretty well too ;-)

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There you are, you see. You were wrong, and it doesn't matter whether it was by mistake or by actual belief in what you wrote.

However, we already know that more than just names and money will go over, so your update, "the only thing currently known to man" is still not quite right, because it is currently known that more than just names and money will go over. At least that's what the CEO told us.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

SLv2 does not have anything.

The only thing you can bring over is your name and purse. 

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FIFY

You should have stopped at the first sentence..

[Perrie Juran]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Leia36 wrote:

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It does not seem plausible to me that LL would countenance interference at such a low level from non American authority. (I am not American)

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The reality is that EU is on a fast track to both create and adopt legislation that will force any internet based service provider regardless of location doing business with European consomers to be in compliance with EU legislation when it comes to TOS, privacy protection, warranties and a slew of other measures. 

American companies like Microsoft and Apple who sell tangibles to European consumers have been forced to make substantial changes to their TOS – also on their services like iCloud and iTunes, and Microsoft online services. The pure service providers are next or they will be blocked from the EU market.

This is a reality also LL will face. 

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Wow, I thought you understood business better than this AND the reason why the EU could "force compliance" on these companies.

Microsoft, Apple, and the like are American (based) Multinational Corporations with Subsidiaries in the EU. 

As an example you can see Apple's structure here (pops).

As a wholly owned and located American company, the EU can force Linden Lab to do NOTHING.

And speaking in general now, the way International Trade Treaties work, in a contract you agree who's laws will govern the contract.  So if you agreed to be bound by American Law and I sue you for instance in a German Court, the Court will Judge the case according to American Law.  Likewise if I am doing business with someone in Germany and agree to be bound by German Law for the contract, if you sue me in an American Court, the Court will judge according to German Law.

So guess what, when you agreed to the SL TOS, the Courts will have no sympathy with you if you claim it "violates EU law" if you should get into a legal dispute with LL.  You entered into that contract by your own freedom of will. 

And just to make sure there is no confusion we are talking about Civil Law here.  Criminal Law is covered by a different set of rules.

 

eta:clarity